Ashamed To Be Sikh

[spnadmin]

What is the connection to the thread topic, Seeker9 ji? Please elaborate. spnadmin

 

[Seeker9]

No, thats an example of "the car is red." Inorder to be "the car is not red" there must be no read what so ever on the car. Not even one speck of red. You can also say that car is pink and be right. You can say that car is pink and red. But you cannot say that car is red and not red.

You can come up with many examples of cars that are part red. But even then, the "part red" cars fail to satisfy the claim "the car is not red" while be able to satisfy the claim "the car is red" so if you were to say "the car is red and not read" it would still be false.

this is well off topic and I am not going to post any further on the car is red angle! Dear Mai Jii thanks for bringing us back to the real world! winkingmunda

 

[spnadmin]

this is well off topic and I am not going to post any further on the car is red angle! Dear Mai Jii thanks for bringing us back to the real world! winkingmunda

Thank you.

 

[Caspian]

It is sad to notice that you have got it all wrong once again. If I am not mistaken, your emotions are playing part in this rather than your logic and reasoning. Once again, Sikhi has NO GOD. Hence Sikhi has no middle man as you falsely claim.

Then i have no quarrels with your point of view. Sikhi has no god. Sikhs are essentially atheists then. We're on the same page thnx for enlightening me with that explanation of the sikh concept of god...

I'll debate with those who believe sikhi has a god.

 

[Seeker9]

Dear Caspian Ji

I sense we are going round in circles so last post for me for a while as this very easy and highly enjoyable diversion is keeping me away from my studies and an exam that is only days away

We have each given our respective views a good airing and it has been fun

Re the Science thing, yes it's a broad area and aerodynamics is outwith my sphere of interest. But having commented so freely on my own lack of knowledge it seems there's an awful lot you're not particularly knowledgeable about either! So if nothing else, I hope I have rattled a few bars in your "logic cage"

As for atheists being more knowledgeable about Science than religious people....HAH HAH HAH HAH .......HAH HAH HAH......HAH HAH HAH........good one!

And on that happy note, I wish you well and will return to this thread in a couple of weeks if it's still going....

All the best
R

 

[Seeker9]

What is the connection to the thhe read topic, Seeker9 ji? Please elaborate. spnadmin

Hah hah..sorry SPNAdmin Ji
Caspian and I got carried away in a separate debate where I was trying to show that there are aspects of reality that defy his/her logical view of the Universe

But no link whatsoever to the opening post....

 

[usdhillon]

Thank you for thought provoking paper. We need such kind of discussion in order to understand and promote this religion. As we have right to disagree and the same way writer has the right to express himself as well.

I totally agree with this young and brave writer. I am sikh by birth but I truely believe that what most people practice today is not sikhism. It is more like a politcal statement. Sikhism and its so called learders have failed to attrect young generation. I have seen Amritdharis's doing their day to day business with low morals. I do sometime feel ashmed to relate myself to Sikhism.

Writer has valid points. Such discussions are needed in order to get things in check and send strong message to political and religious leaders. Those who do not want to listen otherside of the story are rigid minded and unreasonable people. Such thinking will only take young people away from religion as it is happening now. I would ask following questions to those who want to attack writer;

(i) Why there is power struggle in EVERY gurudwara?
(ii) All guruwardas are rich in cash and kind, why are they not giving back to community as other religions do, by helping poor, opening schools, making affordable housing etc. Is seva means, cleaning shoes, doing langers.. does seva also mean helping community hospitals.. if that is the case, have you seen anyone doing it? Just one??

(iii)Why in every gurudwara people bash other religions and do not accept others equal?(Well,I do not know about India, but this happens in USA/UK a lot.

(iv) Is it okay to eat meat? some say yes, some say no.. and no one challange each other and discuss it in a healthy way..


and list can go on and on...

I would thank writer for the post again.(there are 1000s grammatical and spelling mistakes in my post..please pardon me for that). I wish there was a book written by somebody who exposes hyprocate sikhs.. but NO... everybody is afraid, he will be kicked out of the religion.. But we have to question ourself.. "are we in it ?"

 

[findingmyway]

Dear wftw ji,

Coming to a Sikh forum and denigrating Sikhi whilst supporting other belief systems (with some poor points in my opinion) was always going to get you negativity. However, you raise some pertinet points so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and provide you with some background reading. I've chosen forum posts rather than essays so you can see what other Sikhs say about these things (and also non-Sikhs too). Contemplate then return and comment as I'm sure all are keen for your response.

Also in view of the long thread (for which I am partly responsible!), I hope this post provides some focus back to the original issues.

1 Historical inconsistency and unverifiable history
this part of the forum contains a wealth of information:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/historical-events/

However in view of your criticism maybe you could also look here:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/617-janam-sakhi-are-true-events.html

2. Lack of knowledge of religious text

There are too many threads I could put here but I'll stick to just one. The entire forum is filled with instructions to learn and follow otherwise we are not respecting the Guru's.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/15327-is-it-necessary-understand-entire-bani.html

ok, maybe 2!
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/new-to-sikhism/26016-paath-kirtan-and-katha-whats-difference.html

3. Hypocrisy in Sikhism

I agree but I would say this is not a problem just among Sikhs. Every group of people around the world will have the same issue. It should be tackled but defiling Sikhi for a humna trait that manifests itself in every walk of life is just plain insulting.

4. Attacks on Islam

Now this is a complicated topic. It's hard not to be hurt by issues like this:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/31927-pave-streets-gold-but-we-wont.html
However, we wont tolerate injustice and will stick up for others when needed incl muslims:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/united-states/32071-hate-crimes-against-muslims-rise-us.html
I did stick up for muslims in a recent thread as being subject to discrimination, i dont want to discriminate against others. The feeling has to be mutual though:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/united-states/32071-hate-crimes-against-muslims-rise-us.html
Here's some food for thought
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/28476-interview-makhdoom-syed-chan-pir-qadri.html

5. Sikh Theory vs reality.

Sikhi is a lifelong learning process so do not criticise unless you are following the path yourself. If you are and have knowledge then share that with those around you so the theory becomes reality. This forum is one way of enabling that. If you criticise others but do nothing constructive about the situation, that makes you a hypocrite. There are hundreds and thousands if threads dicussing these issues so do some homework!!

Hope you enjoy the reading and hope it's helpful icecreamkaur

USDhillon ji,
You also raise some pertinent points:
1) In the Guru's time religion ran politics. Now politics runs religion. When Sikhs do not become Gurmukhs, ego takes over and fights ensue. Here are some good thoughts
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/32174-wages-for-pathi-sri-akhand-path.html
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-toons/30078-gurdwara-fights.html

2) Lots of Gurdwaras have seva projects. Houslow Gurdwara in London run eye camps in Panjab for free and I think they also do educational stuff locally amongst other things. I can get you their details if you like. A Gurdwara I was previously attending used to use leftovers to feed the homeless but had to stop when UK brought in more stringent laws for food. Another Gurdwara I used to go to had a homeless guy come for langar each week. After the Melbourne forest fires the Gurdwara's were instrumental in helping people. Have you tried organising something like that at your local Gurdwara? Someone is always required to start these things. Many Gurdwara's dont do enough but that will only change if people take the initiative. Also many Gurdwara's are struggling for funds, my local one is a perfect example of this. The negative is always more discussed than the positive.

3) Please clarify this point. We've had Hindus come then demand we change our teaching as it is not inline with their beliefs!! How do you propose reacting to that? When I understand this point better, I will look for some threads for you.

4) http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

Also I read somewhere that Gurdwara's are not welcoming? I beg to differ-we frequently host events for non-Sikhs and if you read through the new to Sikhism pages you'll find many posts saying the opposite.

Hope you enjoy the reading and it answers more questions than it raises (though questions are good)!
Jasleen.

 

[closetonanak]

Sat Shri Akal to All,

Dear you go by basics.

* It is not compulsory to you that u have to become Sikh. This is a PANTH. Where any body can join and follow it.

* My veera You know if anybody become nitmeni na automatically we can understand the meaning of bani.

* we are not enemies of any religions/ or religious thots. but at that time what our guru sahab done coz of islamic policy. (at the end of war banda bahadur givs water to all soldiers who wer injured rather sikh or muslim.)

* lot of thing to say.. .. but i am adiving you to do what u want but dont hurt our feelng. ( humble request)

 

[sunmukh]

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

These sort of questions arise when people begin to debate over opinion.
It is the same art of scholar pandits that debate over the vedas. There is nothing to be gained, but it is interesting to the ones taking part.

All religions are about faith. The faith in a concept or concepts,whatever they are, binds one to a set of practices.
When one realises what faith is, then it become immaterial as to whether the practices one involves oneself in are true/historically correct/virtuous/out of accord with scriptures or fomer leaders statements/unrealistic. Religions are always based on someone or anothers manmat. Please read into and study Japji Sahib, such as pauri 3. Gurmat is a form of Manmat as it is derived from Manmat. Following "pure" Gurmat" is only shifting back to someone else's manmat, and putting all faith in it. Then when questions like this arise, clear cut unquestionable answers cannot be found that will satisfy non-believers, as the root source of knowledge of all religions is opinion. Meanwhile those with faith will remain carefree and completely satisfied.

People who want to accept, will accept without question; those who don't wish to are whistling in the wind and should get on with their own lives without trying to use logic/reason to condemn practices built on faith. This option is always open to them.

Sat Sri Akal

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Caspian ji,

Guru Fateh.

Part of my original post that you pasted for your response:

It is sad to notice that you have got it all wrong once again. If I am not mistaken, your emotions are playing part in this rather than your logic and reasoning. Once again, Sikhi has NO GOD. Hence Sikhi has no middle man as you falsely claim.

Your response:

Then i have no quarrels with your point of view. Sikhi has no god. Sikhs are essentially atheists then. We're on the same page thnx for enlightening me with that explanation of the sikh concept of god...

I'll debate with those who believe sikhi has a god.

Pardon my bluntness but your above statement is false and a cop out. It is you who claimed that you have read Jap ji and other parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru. Those are your conclusions after your studies. You kept on insisting through your own Sikh studies that Ik Ong Kaar is an entity which you were told that he/she /it is NOT.

So, as a good debater, please do not keep on insisting on repeating falsehoods that you gathered with your own studies while blaming other Sikhs for their beliefs.When you are caught in your own cobweb, then ask for help, ask questions so that you can shed off your self created truthiness. Make knowledge your best friend rather than your worst enemy You have repeatedly said that the Atheists look for reasons and logic and btw, so do the Sikhs. Sikhi demands that from us.

If you need any help to clarify your self conceived falsehoods about Sikhi through your own studies, we are here to give you a hand.

As poor Sharon Angle would say: Man up, Caspian!

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[tkaur]

It was interesting and upsetting at the same time to read your topic! I'm not denying what you have experienced...it is rather sad that you think this way. You are saying that feel like you have learned all that you needed to know about Sikhi but YOU DID NOT.
Sikhi is the most modern, scientific based, open minded religion but sadly you've been around people who were unablet to convey this you by their actions, practices, and lack of understanding in the doctrine.
I also applaud you for bringing forth the negative path our so called "granthis" or "gyanis" have taken. I wonder if they even understand or know what it means to be one! Just because our leadership, religious representative are corrupt, doesn't mean we will get astray from our path.
Our Sikh religion teaches us humility, humanity, brotherhood, and the right way to live our life. It is the responisbilty of each parent to learn and teach their children about Sikhi.
Guru Nanak Sahib was the "light" that shone for all and people from all relgions considered him their guru or peer. Muslims in Sindh and Middle East also call him "Nanak Tapa or Peer." Guru Sahibs also fought for women rights, and education and equality for all. Guru Arjan Dev ji, Guru Teg Bahadur ji, Guru Gobind Singh ji, their families, and Khalsa all fought for fundamental rights of all, humanity, and against forced conversions by other religions.
Our religion has never offended any ones and respected them all but when there is torture or fights on the name of religion, we have stood up to save and fight for everyone's rights.
I pray and hope you find peace and understanding! You are confused and for that somewhat our society is also to blame for that. But try to stand up, open your mind, and go to the right sources to get your information on Sikhi.

 

[sunmukh]

.
I also applaud you for bringing forth the negative path our so called "granthis" or "gyanis" have taken. I wonder if they even understand or know what it means to be one!

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

T Kaur Bhen ji, I agree with everything you wrote, save for above lines. I think you are being a bit hard on granthis generally. There may be some who are out of line, or who don't have a clue, but it is not right to stereotype all of them based on personal experiences. They are humans, with human failings and should not be expected to be ideal role models with an ability to intepret Gurbani exactly as Guru Sahiban intended. They will understand Gurbani as God sets the path out for them, same as any other individuals.
Gurbani is there for each and every individual who gets the urge, to contemplate upon and gain an understanding, and non-gyanis should take this step of learning for themselves instead of blaming gyanis.

The initiator of this thread does not seem to wish to take a constructive approach, and learn directly from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, wheras Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji will answer all his questions, from misleading people, to hypocrisy, to persecution, to pointless recitals. Such failings to learn from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji are individuals failings and cannot be offset onto the shoulders of organisations. First one has to have complete faith in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and in God, and all answers will come to mind and doubts will be dispelled.

Sat Sri Akal

 

[a.mother]

Sat sri akal, wftw ji
Well from my side of the coin I am proud to be born as Sikh and also proud to born from sikh parents.
May be I am not educated like you, may be not a researcher like you ,but when I heard something like you mention I have to say somethings, schooling is that kind of "lou" (light) or ( fire) which you can use for cook the delicious food or you can burn the house or winter time for the warmeth, thats depend on how wise you are or how smart you are. I haven't read your all post yet,because I felt how you feel ,this is daily story in mostly sikh families.
I have a point that how we all know this is my mom or dad because our mom told us SORRY we did not witness it same with dad, mom an dad told us WE DID NOT HAVE ANY PROOF of it.( sorry I don't want to hurt anyone) That is depend on our believe, same thing with religion. Guru sahib ji stop the rock or baba Deep Singh ji 's story. These are not only stories all depend on your believe. Every thing is possible this is not math that you can get answer right way . My point is if you are science student then you have no knowllege for politics but you can't say we don't have any govt.or president or prime minister. To achieve something we have to go for school for that subject. Sikhism is a very practical religion. Sikhism is that kind of butter who whip the milk can get it.To feel the practically you have to dip in it with pure heart . And science is not a big thing, where it stops Sikhism starts.

 

[jasbirkaleka]

ikonkaar
Every religion has to create myths and attribute super-human powers to their prophets and heroes, becuse a follower has to believe that his Guru was differant from ordinary people.
My belief is that Guru Nanak Dev JI, in his life-time, would have strongly opposed any such myths or powers being attributed to him.
wftw simply wantd to know why we are scared to discuss such issues, where as we find wast critical literature on for e.g. Shroud of Turin, Noah"s Arch,Birth of Christ etc.:seriousmunda:

 

[Chaan Pardesi]

Every religion has to create myths and attribute super-human powers to their prophets and heroes, becuse a follower has to believe that his Guru was differant from ordinary people.
My belief is that Guru Nanak Dev JI, in his life-time, would have strongly opposed any such myths or powers being attributed to him.
wftw simply wantd to know why we are scared to discuss such issues, where as we find wast critical literature on for e.g. Shroud of Turin, Noah"s Arch,Birth of Christ etc.

I disagree, and say that Sikh religion did not create any myths.I will start with short references to our history and the teachings.

1]It is evident with Guru Nanak, when he challenges Babur and the mythological power of the Moghuls that had suppressed the indian mind ... ..says

..eti maat payee kurlane, tain ki dard na ya...

[So much carnage and death has been committed , have you no compassion]

This was the first direct challenge to a ruler ever in India.

2]It is no myth when Guru Arjan Ji goes to martyrdom in the face of suppresion and freedom of religion.

Guru Arjan composed SUKHMANI and says on page 262..

Meditate, meditate, meditate peace is obtained, Worry and anguish is expelled from the body.
<DD>Remembering God, you’re not reborn. Remembering God, the fear of death is dispelled. <DD>Remembering God, death is eliminated. Remembering God, your enemies are repelled. <DD>Remembering God, no obstacles are met. Remembering God, night and day you’re fully awake. <DD>Remembering God, fear cannot touch you. Remembering God, you don’t suffer with sorrow. <DD>Remembrance of God, in the Company of Saints. All treasures, O Nanak, are by Lord’s Blessing. ||2|<DD>

3]Guru Hargobind Sahib or Sacha Patshah took his father's excution at age 11 with sweetness, a feat that you and I will never be able to do.He put on two swords: one for spiritual authority and the other temporal authority.He built the Akal Takhat , the Throne of the Almighty.He created the Flag of the Khalsa and prepared the suppressed mind of the people to take to arms. The war-drum which was beaten twice a day


4]The Chader of Hind,the Protector of Hind - Guru Teg Bahadur clearly invited martydom for the freedom of ANOTHER faith by defyiing Aurangzeb who cherished the ambition of converting India into a land of Islam.

5]The Sahib A Kamaal,Shah of the Shahs The Magnificent in Blue, Guru Gobind Singh, the son of A martyr, and father to Four Martyrs, the pillar of defiance to tyranny and inhumane Acts,created from a Zero, FIVE , who rose to spiritually fight and temporally assert against all odds and thousands the simple Message of TRUTH and Bravery of Faith is not a myth either.In one of His poems and message it is clear and as stark as day light and night ...

All the battles I have won against tyranny
I have fought with the devoted backing of the people;
Through them only have I been able to bestow gifts,
Through their help I have escaped from harm;
The love and generosity of these Sikhs
Have enriched my heart and home.
Through their grace I have attained all learning;
Through their help in battle I have slain all my enemies.
I was born to serve them, through them I reached eminence.
What would I have been without their kind and ready help?
There are millions of insignificant people like me.
True service is the service of these people.
I am not inclined to serve others of higher caste:
Charity will bear fruit in this and the next world,
If given to such worthy people as these;
All other sacrifices are and charities are profitless.
From toe to toe, whatever I call my own,
All I possess and carry, I dedicate to these people.

In the prayer of Sri Rehraas, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, says clearly ...
<DD>"ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ
<DD>ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨਾ ਮਾਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਸਿੰਮਿ੍ਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈਂ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਸੀ੍ ਅਸਿਪਾਨ ਕਿ੍ਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਮੈ ਨਾ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸਭ ਤੋਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਿਯੋ ॥"
<DD>
<DD>"Since I fell at the feet of God, no one has appeared great in my eyes. Ram and Raheem, the Puranas and Qu'ran, have many votaries, but neither do I regard. Smritis, Shashtras, and Vedas, differ in many things; not one do I heed. O Supreme God! under thy favour has all been done; nought is of myself."
<DD>
<DD>In September , 1708, he gave an Order...
<DD>
<DD>"Agya bhai Akal ki tabhi chalayo Panth Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai,Guru maniyo Granth Guru Granth Ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh Jo Prabhu ko milbo chahe khoj shabad mein le Raj karega Khalsa aqi rahei na koe Khwar hoe sabh milange bache sharan jo hoe."
<DD>
<DD>"Under orders of the Immortal Being, the Panth was created. All the Sikhs are enjoined to accept the Granth as their Guru. Consider the Guru Granth as embodiment of the Gurus. Those who want to meet God, can find Him in its hymns. The pure shall rule, and impure will be no more, Those separated will unite and all the devotees shall be saved."
<DD>
<DD>These are not myths of Sikh religion, but facts.Sikh religion holds no water for miracle and myths as is clearly apparent in almost every other religion.That is not for me to discuss or condenm.
<DD>
<DD>Finally,I disagree with your defence of WftW.He did not ask questions, he demeaned and made false allegations about Sikh religion.Not only that ,he does not understand the boundaries between behavioral,cultural and spiritual, lack of educational and ettiquette aspects of a soceity and mish meshed the whole-then made a very bold statement that Sikh religion is baseles, while making some sweeping statements about Christianity and Islam; which by his own admission was learnt by stage manning some visits to churches and Mosques.He then admitted that he has not learnt the Guru Granth Sahib.So how did he managed to compare the three religions against each other?
<DD>
<DD>
<DD>As that was not enough, he then staged a disappreance act, while readers offered their views, he did not respond to ??s upon his original post.
<DD>
<DD>Days later, he emerges, what does he do?He laments about being unfairly treated and accused and personal attacks.
<DD>

[Considering, he made personal attack upon the very Gurus and Sikh principles held in reverence by millions of Sikhs]

He did not respond to any single response asked of in the many posts.I know for a fact,lawyers use that as one route to escape facing the music, that they stir; which is exactly what this budding "student of law" appears to have learnt to do.In simple words, a good way to escape the dock when cornered.

A myth, he then tried to spread was, that Sikhs are "scared" to discuss.Absolute rubbish.Only Sikhs scared to discuss are those who perhaps for one reason or another have not learnt their religion well enough, just like the millions more Christains and muslims who are equally scared to discuss anything about their religion.

One poorly painful cutural aspect that Sikhs have carried on as a baggage is the standrad of granthis.One will never find a granthi who has a degree in Forensics, or Science or Medicine or Chemistry, for a number of reasons. Only those who failed to accomplish any high standard of academia and failed standard Five or Four in the Punjab then go on to become granthis for other reasons as well.I say, such are not the people, who are well qualified to debate or discuss.In fact much of the poor state of the Sikh religion today is due to lower standard of skills learnt in education by these granthis.In the current world times Sikhsim cannot be propogated by an 18th century mindset, that many granthis seem to profess.

To conclude,instead of making such false and pervasive claims, and disappering, then lamenting pitifully after seeing the re-action, it would have been noble of W.FTW to have responded first to the key points raised.



​

</DD>

 

[seeker3k]

The religion is not what is written in the holly books. It is what the person lives by.
As we see there are many inconsistencies in every religion.
We Sikhs always put other religion down so that we can look good. We feel proud when we listen the stories of magic performed by our Gurus.

I don’t think any scientist test the hand mark on the stone. As Dilbirk claim that Sikhism is the only logical religion in the world. He failed to explain where is the logic in these stories. As a Sikhs I can not question any thing in our religion. Every this is said no matter how ideological the story it has to be true. As Mai Ji pointed it out.

I have asked many questions like these but always I was put down by all.
One was Nanak had great idea, what went wrong and what can be done about it.
Couple of the people reply only to say that Hindus are creaping into to Sikhism to corrupt it.
WE can not take the responsibility that we are the one who are corrupting our religion.

Nanak did not tell us in of his poetry to do any rituals. Yet we are doing more rituals then Hindus. Every day new ritual is creeping in to Sikhs thanks to the granthies and khatha watch. There is no will by SGPC. The publick are accepting what what the rigis are telling us. No one allowed to question the khatha watch to explain what he is saying.

No one here is admitting that Sikhism is full of stupid retiuals but they are very quickie to rip apaer the person who ask question.
Please read the post again (seeker9,findingmyway dilbik) and kindly reply to the question. You are killing the messenger.

MY warning to wftw is be-carefull many are sharpening their daggers.

 

[a.mother]

ssahluwalia ji,
I did not copy your point for about mother and father. That I read only today as Nov. 5th. Because they are similier only I want to clear that. (They come from heart which don't want to hear anything negetive for guru sahib ji)
I am still not done with all posts,but I can say head line is very negetive and hurtful.It could be titled like " Why we proud to be Sikh ? "

 

[jasbirkaleka]

I disagree, and say that Sikh religion did not create any myths.I will start with short references to our history and the teachings.

1]It is evident with Guru Nanak, when he challenges Babur and the mythological power of the Moghuls that had suppressed the indian mind ... ..says

..eti maat payee kurlane, tain ki dard na ya...

[So much carnage and death has been committed , have you no compassion]

This was the first direct challenge to a ruler ever in India.

2]It is no myth when Guru Arjan Ji goes to martyrdom in the face of suppresion and freedom of religion.

Guru Arjan composed SUKHMANI and says on page 262..

Meditate, meditate, meditate peace is obtained, Worry and anguish is expelled from the body.


<DD>Remembering God, you’re not reborn. Remembering God, the fear of death is dispelled. <DD>Remembering God, death is eliminated. Remembering God, your enemies are repelled. <DD>Remembering God, no obstacles are met. Remembering God, night and day you’re fully awake. <DD>Remembering God, fear cannot touch you. Remembering God, you don’t suffer with sorrow. <DD>Remembrance of God, in the Company of Saints. All treasures, O Nanak, are by Lord’s Blessing. ||2|<DD>

3]Guru Hargobind Sahib or Sacha Patshah took his father's excution at age 11 with sweetness, a feat that you and I will never be able to do.He put on two swords: one for spiritual authority and the other temporal authority.He built the Akal Takhat , the Throne of the Almighty.He created the Flag of the Khalsa and prepared the suppressed mind of the people to take to arms. The war-drum which was beaten twice a day


4]The Chader of Hind,the Protector of Hind - Guru Teg Bahadur clearly invited martydom for the freedom of ANOTHER faith by defyiing Aurangzeb who cherished the ambition of converting India into a land of Islam.

5]The Sahib A Kamaal,Shah of the Shahs The Magnificent in Blue, Guru Gobind Singh, the son of A martyr, and father to Four Martyrs, the pillar of defiance to tyranny and inhumane Acts,created from a Zero, FIVE , who rose to spiritually fight and temporally assert against all odds and thousands the simple Message of TRUTH and Bravery of Faith is not a myth either.In one of His poems and message it is clear and as stark as day light and night ...

All the battles I have won against tyranny
I have fought with the devoted backing of the people;
Through them only have I been able to bestow gifts,
Through their help I have escaped from harm;
The love and generosity of these Sikhs
Have enriched my heart and home.
Through their grace I have attained all learning;
Through their help in battle I have slain all my enemies.
I was born to serve them, through them I reached eminence.
What would I have been without their kind and ready help?
There are millions of insignificant people like me.
True service is the service of these people.
I am not inclined to serve others of higher caste:
Charity will bear fruit in this and the next world,
If given to such worthy people as these;
All other sacrifices are and charities are profitless.
From toe to toe, whatever I call my own,
All I possess and carry, I dedicate to these people.

In the prayer of Sri Rehraas, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, says clearly ...


<DD>"ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ


<DD>ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨਾ ਮਾਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਸਿੰਮਿ੍ਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈਂ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਸੀ੍ ਅਸਿਪਾਨ ਕਿ੍ਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਮੈ ਨਾ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸਭ ਤੋਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਿਯੋ ॥"


<DD>


<DD>"Since I fell at the feet of God, no one has appeared great in my eyes. Ram and Raheem, the Puranas and Qu'ran, have many votaries, but neither do I regard. Smritis, Shashtras, and Vedas, differ in many things; not one do I heed. O Supreme God! under thy favour has all been done; nought is of myself."


<DD>


<DD>In September , 1708, he gave an Order...


<DD>


<DD>"Agya bhai Akal ki tabhi chalayo Panth Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai,Guru maniyo Granth Guru Granth Ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh Jo Prabhu ko milbo chahe khoj shabad mein le Raj karega Khalsa aqi rahei na koe Khwar hoe sabh milange bache sharan jo hoe."


<DD>


<DD>"Under orders of the Immortal Being, the Panth was created. All the Sikhs are enjoined to accept the Granth as their Guru. Consider the Guru Granth as embodiment of the Gurus. Those who want to meet God, can find Him in its hymns. The pure shall rule, and impure will be no more, Those separated will unite and all the devotees shall be saved."


<DD>


<DD>These are not myths of Sikh religion, but facts.Sikh religion holds no water for miracle and myths as is clearly apparent in almost every other religion.That is not for me to discuss or condenm.


<DD>


<DD>Finally,I disagree with your defence of WftW.He did not ask questions, he demeaned and made false allegations about Sikh religion.Not only that ,he does not understand the boundaries between behavioral,cultural and spiritual, lack of educational and ettiquette aspects of a soceity and mish meshed the whole-then made a very bold statement that Sikh religion is baseles, while making some sweeping statements about Christianity and Islam; which by his own admission was learnt by stage manning some visits to churches and Mosques.He then admitted that he has not learnt the Guru Granth Sahib.So how did he managed to compare the three religions against each other?


<DD>


<DD>


<DD>As that was not enough, he then staged a disappreance act, while readers offered their views, he did not respond to ??s upon his original post.


<DD>


<DD>Days later, he emerges, what does he do?He laments about being unfairly treated and accused and personal attacks.


<DD>

[Considering, he made personal attack upon the very Gurus and Sikh principles held in reverence by millions of Sikhs]

He did not respond to any single response asked of in the many posts.I know for a fact,lawyers use that as one route to escape facing the music, that they stir; which is exactly what this budding "student of law" appears to have learnt to do.In simple words, a good way to escape the dock when cornered.

A myth, he then tried to spread was, that Sikhs are "scared" to discuss.Absolute rubbish.Only Sikhs scared to discuss are those who perhaps for one reason or another have not learnt their religion well enough, just like the millions more Christains and muslims who are equally scared to discuss anything about their religion.

One poorly painful cutural aspect that Sikhs have carried on as a baggage is the standrad of granthis.One will never find a granthi who has a degree in Forensics, or Science or Medicine or Chemistry, for a number of reasons. Only those who failed to accomplish any high standard of academia and failed standard Five or Four in the Punjab then go on to become granthis for other reasons as well.I say, such are not the people, who are well qualified to debate or discuss.In fact much of the poor state of the Sikh religion today is due to lower standard of skills learnt in education by these granthis.In the current world times Sikhsim cannot be propogated by an 18th century mindset, that many granthis seem to profess.

To conclude,instead of making such false and pervasive claims, and disappering, then lamenting pitifully after seeing the re-action, it would have been noble of W.FTW to have responded first to the key points raised.



​

Chaan Pardesi ji.

<DD>Whatyou have written in your post are facts.What I was talking about was myths.

<DD>Do you claim that no myths have creeped into Sikh religion,which in its original form was very rational.<DD>Did any of our great Gurus ever claim that they possess the power to perform miracles?swordfight

</DD>

 

[sunmukh]

The religion is not what is written in the holly books. It is what the person lives by.
As we see there are many inconsistencies in every religion.
We Sikhs always put other religion down so that we can look good. We feel proud when we listen the stories of magic performed by our Gurus.

I don’t think any scientist test the hand mark on the stone. As Dilbirk claim that Sikhism is the only logical religion in the world. He failed to explain where is the logic in these stories. As a Sikhs I can not question any thing in our religion. Every this is said no matter how ideological the story it has to be true. As Mai Ji pointed it out.

I have asked many questions like these but always I was put down by all.
One was Nanak had great idea, what went wrong and what can be done about it.
Couple of the people reply only to say that Hindus are creaping into to Sikhism to corrupt it.
WE can not take the responsibility that we are the one who are corrupting our religion.

Nanak did not tell us in of his poetry to do any rituals. Yet we are doing more rituals then Hindus. Every day new ritual is creeping in to Sikhs thanks to the granthies and khatha watch. There is no will by SGPC. The publick are accepting what what the rigis are telling us. No one allowed to question the khatha watch to explain what he is saying.

No one here is admitting that Sikhism is full of stupid retiuals but they are very quickie to rip apaer the person who ask question.
Please read the post again (seeker9,findingmyway dilbik) and kindly reply to the question. You are killing the messenger.

MY warning to wftw is be-carefull many are sharpening their daggers.

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

I don't think anyone on this site is sharpening daggers, but still there is some high degree of intolerance to different views. This is a Sikh site and so most will write in interest of Sikhs. However when Sikhs claim to be almost the most tolerant of people on this planet, then they set themselve a very high standard to live of fall by. When they fall, they have a long way to fall.

Rituals are part and parcel of religion. That is what they are about, otherwise they would not be a religion.
Guru Nanak tried very hard to break free from them all, and to shift to most simple worship of God alone. This is bhakti-yoga, or krishna consciousness. This does NOT imply it is Hinduism, but simply means it is GOD worship. However Sikhs have over time shifted the goal-posts to Guru worship, history worship, past hero worship gurdwara worship, their own identity worship, their own ritual worship. In each case they will deny it is not rituals, but it is to any outsider every bit ritualism, but with another name. When they shift go back to God worship, they will be following goals of enlightened founder.

I will take a daring step now, and maybe banned for saying it: Guru ji's from 4th Guru onwards engaged in nepotism. Guru Nanak ji ensured this did not happen, but unfortunately this did not persist through lineage of Guru Sahiban. Sikhs will deny any differences between Gurus as they have to beleive in one light through all - if not the castle built on sand collapses.
However when you have people with Hindu backgrounds becoming Sikh Gurus then all is open to change and introduction of ritual. Dasam Granth is evidence of deep roots embedded back into Sikhism.

Very sad ending for very great efforts by Gurus. I am personally convinced SGGS ji is only wisdom in Sikhi. The Gurus contibuting to it did not intoduce any ritual, but unfortunately Sikhs of today follow and idolise 10th master, instead of SGGS ji. With that comes all the rituals and guru worship and scripture worship, and recitals, and there is little God worship.

Sat Sri Akal