Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Argument/ਬਾਦੁ

Discussion in 'Spiritual Articles' started by vsgrewal48895, Mar 22, 2009.

  1. vsgrewal48895

    vsgrewal48895
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    662
    Dear Memebers,

    I make a plea that please do not be argumentative and emotional at the same time as it makes the individual irrational. The aim is to learn from each others spiritual experience and knowledge as we all are teachers as well as students till death.

    ARGUMENT/ਬਾਦੁ

    ABSTRACT

    Arguments in Sikh debates arise because;

    1. Practice of faith is different than what is written in AGGS.
    2. Literal translation of AGGS is given precedence over the meaning of the messages.
    3. Superiority vs humility, the former pertains to who is right and the later to what is right.
    4. Individual insecurity and fear.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Argument is a discussion in which disagreements appear. A debate implies discussion involving conflicting points of view. It stresses the advancement by each side of facts and reasons intended to persuade the other side. Emotions are seldom assuaged by arguments. They can heighten a controversy and exaggerate differences. A large number of people can get involved in the advocacy of one view or the other. Basically an argument has two parts – a reason and a conclusion. The conclusion of an argument is one’s belief. The reasons of an argument explain why that belief is held. Sometimes a set of reasons is termed premises or warrants. In any argument, the issue must be clear. The opening phase of the argument must define its subject matter very clearly. It should indicate the particular view of the subject the arguer is promoting. It is this view that he seeks his listener or reader to accept, if his persuasion is to be successful.

    What is not an argument?

    • An argument is not a report. A report only conveys information about a subject without taking a position on the subject.
    • An argument is not an unsupported assertion.
    • An argument is not a conditional statement or a premise by itself; or a conclusion of an argument alone.
    • An argument is not an illustration.
    • An argument is not an explanation. An explanation shows why something is true. On the other hand, an argument proves that something is the case.

    Sabd Guru on arguments;

    ਤੀਰਥਿ ਭਰਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਛੂਟਸਿ ਪੜਿਆ ਬਾਦੁ ਬਿਬਾਦੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਰੋਗੁ ਸੁ ਅਧਿਕ ਵਡੇਰਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਮੁਹਤਾਜੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ Ŧirath bẖarmai rog na cẖẖūtas paṛi¬ā bāḏ bibāḏ bẖa¬i¬ā. Ḏubiḏẖā rog so aḏẖik vadėrā mā¬i¬ā kā muhṯāj bẖa¬i¬ā.

    Wandering around sacred shrines of pilgrimage, the mortal is not cured of his disease. Reading scripture, he gets involved in useless arguments. The disease of duality is very deadly; it causes dependence on Maya. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1153-16

    ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੁਜਤਿ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ਬਹੁਤੁ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਲਾਗੈ ਧੂਰਿ ॥

    Gurmaṯ sācẖī hujaṯ ḏūr, Bahuṯ si¬āṇap lāgai ḏẖūr.

    Receiving the True Teachings from the Guru, arguments depart. But through excessive cleverness, one is only plastered with dirt. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 352-11

    ਵਾਦਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਲਾ ॥ਮਨੁ ਦੇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ॥ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਦੁਹੇਲਾ ॥

    vāḏ ahaʼnkār nāhī parabẖ mėlā. Man ḏė pāvahi nām suhėlā. Ḏūjai bẖā¬ė agi¬ān ḏuhėlā.

    Union with God is not obtained by arguments and egotism. But by dedicating the mind to Guru one obtains Naam and peace. In the love of duality and ignorance, you shall suffer.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 226-8

    ਵਾਦਿ ਵਿਰੋਧਿ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਫੀਕਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਚਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥

    vāḏ viroḏẖ na pā¬i¬ā jā¬ė. Man ṯan fīkā ḏūjai bẖā¬ė. Gur kai sabaḏ sacẖ liv lā¬ė.

    Through argument and debate, Akal Purkh cannot be found. The mind and body are made insipid through the love of duality. Through the Word of the Guru's Sabd, lovingly attune yourself to the True Akal Purkh. -----Guru Amar Das, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 230-10

    ਮਨਮੁਖ ਵਾਪਾਰੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਬਿਖੁ ਵਿਹਾਝਹਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹਹਿ ਬਿਖ ਸਿਉ ਧਰਹਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸਦਾਇਦੇ ਮਨਹੁ ਮੂਰਖ ਗਾਵਾਰ ॥ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਨ ਲਾਇਨੀ ਵਾਦੀ ਧਰਨਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ਵਾਦਾ ਕੀਆ ਕਰਨਿ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੈਲਾ ਸਭੁ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚੇਤਨੀ ਹੋਇ ਮੈਲੇ ਮਰਹਿ ਗਵਾਰ ॥

    Manmukẖ vāpārai sār na jāṇnī bikẖ vihājẖeh bikẖ sangar¬hahi bikẖ si¬o ḏẖareh pi¬ār, Bāhrahu pandiṯ saḏā¬iḏė manhu mūrakẖ gāvār, Har si¬o cẖiṯ na lā¬inī vāḏī ḏẖaran pi¬ār, vāḏā kī¬ā karan kahāṇī¬ā kūṛ bol karahi āhār, Jag meh rām nām har nirmalā hor mailā sabẖ ākār, Nānak nām na cẖėṯnī ho¬ė mailė mareh gavār.

    The self-willed does not appreciate the excellence of trading in Truth. He deals in poison, collects poison, and is in love with poison. Outwardly, they call themselves Pundits, religious scholars, but in their minds they are foolish and ignorant. They do not focus their consciousness on the Akal Purkh; they love to engage in arguments. They speak to cause arguments, and earn their living by telling lies. In this world, only the Akal Purkh's Name is immaculate and pure. All other objects of creation are polluted. O, Nanak, those who do not remember the Naam, the Name of the Akal Purkh, is polluted; they die in ignorance.
    -----Guru Amardas, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1091

    ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਵੈ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥

    Upḏės karė kar lok ḏariṛ¬āvai, Apnā kahi¬ā āp na kamāvai.

    You preach to the others to have faith, but you do not practice what you preach. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 887-18

    ੜਾੜਿ ਕਰਤ ਸਾਕਤ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਜੇਹ ਹੀਐ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ੜਾੜਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ੜਾੜਿ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥ਨਿਮਖ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਮਝਾਈ ॥

    ṛāṛ karaṯ sākaṯ gāvārā. Jėh hī¬ai ahaʼn¬buḏẖ bikārā. ṛāṛā gurmukẖ ṛāṛ mitā¬ī. Nimakẖ māhi Nānak samjẖā¬ī.

    RARRA:The foolish, materialist picks arguments -- his heart is filled with corruption and egotistical intellect. For the Guru willed, conflict is eliminated in an instant through the Teachings, says Nanak, -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 260-4

    ਕਾਹੂ ਬਿਹਾਵੈ ਬੇਦ ਅਰੁ ਬਾਦਿ॥ਕਾਹੂ ਬਿਹਾਵੈ ਰਸਨਾ ਸਾਦਿ॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਬਿਹਾਵੈ ਲਪਟਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਨਾਰੀ॥ਸੰਤ ਰਚੇ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ॥

    Kāhū bihāvai bėḏ ar bāḏ, Kāhū bihāvai rasnā sāḏ, Kāhū bihāvai lapat sang nārī, Sanṯ racẖė kėval nām murārī.

    Some pass their lives in arguments and debates about scriptures. Some pass their lives tasting flavors. Some pass their lives attached to women. The Saints are absorbed only in the Name of the Akal Purkh. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 914-2

    ਕਰਤ ਕਰਤ ਚਰਚ ਚਰਚ ਚਰਚਰੀ ॥ ਜੋਗ ਧਿਆਨ ਭੇਖ ਗਿਆਨ ਫਿਰਤ ਫਿਰਤ ਧਰਤ ਧਰਤ ਧਰਚਰੀ ॥ ਅਹੰ ਅਹੰ ਅਹੈ ਅਵਰ ਮੂੜ ਮੂੜ ਮੂੜ ਬਵਰਈ ॥ ਜਤਿ ਜਾਤ ਜਾਤ ਜਾਤ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਲ ਹਈ ॥ ਮਾਨੁ ਮਾਨੁ ਮਾਨੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਸਦਾ ਹਈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਹਰੇ ਭਾਜੁ ਕਹਤੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਮੂੜ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਜਨ ਭਜਨ ਭਜਨ ਅਹਿਲਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਈ ॥

    Karaṯ karaṯ cẖaracẖ cẖaracẖ cẖarcẖarī, Jog ḏẖi¬ān bẖėkẖ gi¬ān firaṯ firaṯ ḏẖaraṯ ḏẖaraṯ ḏẖarcẖarī, Ahaʼn ahaʼn ahai avar mūṛ mūṛ mūṛ bavra¬ī, Jaṯ jāṯ jāṯ jāṯ saḏā saḏā saḏā saḏā kāl ha¬ī, Mān mān mān ṯi¬āg miraṯ miraṯ nikat nikat saḏā ha¬ī, Har harė harė bẖāj kahaṯ Nānak sunhu rė mūṛ bin bẖajan bẖajan bẖajan ahilā janam ga¬ī.

    The debaters debate and make their arguments. The Yogis and meditators, religious and spiritual teachers roam and ramble, wandering endlessly all over the earth. They are egotistical, self-centered, conceited, foolish, stupid, idiotic and insane. Wherever they go and wander, death is always with them, forever and ever and ever and ever. Give up your pride and stubborn self-conceit. Death, yes, death, is always close and near at hand. Vibrate and meditate on the Akal Purkh, Har, Haray, Haray. Says Nanak, listen you fool: without vibrating, and meditating, and dwelling on Akal Purkh, your life is uselessly wasting away.
    -----Guru Arjan, Raag Kanrha, AGGS, Page, 1308-1, 2, 3 & 4

    ਝਝਾ ਉਰਝਿ ਸੁਰਝਿ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾ ॥ਰਹਿਓ ਝਝਕਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਪਰਵਾਨਾ ॥ਕਤ ਝਖਿ ਝਖਿ ਅਉਰਨ ਸਮਝਾਵਾ ॥ਝਗਰੁ ਕੀਏ ਝਗਰਉ ਹੀ ਪਾਵਾ ॥

    Jẖajẖā urajẖ surajẖ nahī jānā, Rahi¬o jẖajẖak nāhī parvānā, Kaṯ jẖakẖ jẖakẖ a¬uran samjẖāvā, Jẖagar kī¬ė jẖagara¬o hī pāvā.

    JHAJHA: You are entangled in the world, and you do not know how to get untangled. You hold back in fear, and are not approved by the Akal Purkh. Why do you talk such nonsense, trying to convince the others? Stirring up arguments, you shall only obtain more arguments. -----Kabir, Gauri Bawan Akhri, AGGS, Page, 341

    Conclusion;

    An argument is the worst sort of conversation, and ought to be avoided. Arguments based on mere possibilities are often spurious. Insolence is not logic. Similarly epithets are the arguments made from malice. An emotional argument cannot be won by logic. The soundest argument will produce no more conviction in an empty head than the most superficial.

    The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it. Guru Nanak reflects on a spiritually ignorant person in Raag Majh Ki Vaar;

    ਮਛੀ ਤਾਰੂ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੇ ਪੰਖੀ ਕਿਆ ਆਕਾਸੁ ॥ ਪਥਰ ਪਾਲਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੇ ਖੁਸਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਘਰ ਵਾਸੁ ॥ ਕੁਤੇ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਲਾਈਐ ਭੀ ਸੋ ਕੁਤੀ ਧਾਤੁ ॥ ਬੋਲਾ ਜੇ ਸਮਝਾਈਐ ਪੜੀਅਹਿ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪਾਠ ॥ ਅੰਧਾ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਦੀਵੇ ਬਲਹਿ ਪਚਾਸ ॥ ਚਉਣੇ ਸੁਇਨਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਚੁਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਖਾਵੈ ਘਾਸੁ ॥ ਲੋਹਾ ਮਾਰਣਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਢਹੈ ਨ ਹੋਇ ਕਪਾਸ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੂਰਖ ਏਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਬੋਲੇ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ॥

    Macẖẖī ṯārū ki­ā karė pankẖī ki­ā ākās. Pathar pālā ki­ā karė kẖusrė ki­ā gẖar vās. Kuṯė cẖanḏan lā­ī­ai bẖī so kuṯī ḏẖāṯ. Bolā jė samjā­ī­ai paṛī­ah simriṯ pāṯẖ. Anḏẖā cẖānaṇ rakẖī­ai ḏīvė baleh pacẖās. Cẖa­uṇė su­inā pā­ī­ai cẖuṇ cẖuṇ kẖāvai gẖās. Lohā māraṇ pā­ī­ai dẖahai na ho­ė kapās. Nānak mūrakẖ ėhi guṇ bolė saḏā viṇās.

    What can deep water do to a fish? What can the vast sky do to a bird? What can cold do to a stone? What is married life to a eunuch? You may apply sandalwood oil to a dog, but he will still be a dog. You may try to teach a deaf person by reading the Simritees to him, but how will he learn? You may place a light before a blind man and burn fifty lamps, but how will he see? You may place gold before a herd of cattle, but they will pick out the grass to eat. You may add flux to iron and melt it, but it will not become soft like cotton. O Nanak, this is the nature of a spiritually ignorant-everything he speaks is useless and wasted.
    -----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh Ki Vaar, AGGS, Page, 143

    Cordially,

    Virinder S. Grewal
    Williamston, MI
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page