Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Atheism Are we all atheists?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by BhagatSingh, Mar 19, 2009.

  1. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. - Stephen F. Roberts

    I came across this quote and it just made so much sense to me. It just strengthened my belief that Sikhism is a logical religion and therefore, it allows its followers to believe in any sort of God they want. It does not matter whether this God is more than one God or no God at all.I relate this directly to the Sargun-Nirgun concept, all attributes-no attributes.
    I think that everything else in Sikhism is what the Gurus related to the most. You know that God is our mother, father, etc. and various other analogies and concepts. This would be an intelligent thing to teach to common folk and would provide them with a loving guardian, whereas, they would believe the opposite since most religions have God(s) that punish.

    I could be completely wrong, of course. I justthought that I should share this, and I encourage everyone to present what they think. :)
     
  2. Loading...


  3. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    4,578
    Likes Received:
    1,606
    :a26::situps:
     
  4. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Ok Bhagat Singh,

    Bani states it is every person goal to become Gurmukh rather than Munmukh. God will rather than Selfwill. When we manage to tune our selves into being Gurmukh's, much like a radio trying to tune into a particular station we realise God. The 5 thieves etc become irrelevant. What Guruji is saying is God is within each and every one of us but it is up to us to try and realise God.......but what Bani is saying is that God is one and the same.

    It does not say their are different God's, but just the one Ekh Onkar!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    See, I thought it was about the five thieves becasue they affect not only us but also people around us. Whereas if you believe in a God or not doesn't really make a difference.

    So if God is the same, is my non-existent God the same as your existent God? What about my friend's multiple Gods? or possibilty of other Gods?

    What did you think about that quote and my views?
     
  6. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Precisely, it is about the 5 thieves

    Self will = 5 thieves run riot

    God will = 5 thieves controlled

    I think if there were no God then who's will would a person be doing?

    If their were multiple God's then the same question arises, who's will would you be doing? Which God's will? 1 , 2 or all of them?

    Quote is interesting but it would not address my issue I have above. Whose will would we be following?
     
  7. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    In SGGS it says "hukumai under sabh ko bahar hukum na koi"
    You cannot be out of God's control.

    Um this runs contradictory to your statements above. But if no God then Self will.

    In any possible combination depending o nthe person.

    Our own. Whether there is one God, no God or multiple Gods.
     
  8. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    I think one must differentiate between "will" and "control". God gives us a free will and we are able to use that will either to follow God's will or our own.

    Precisely, then it is again self will.

    Again precisely, Is it not better to have one God that represents all these aspects and you follow that?

    We are again back to square one are we not? We are following self will which is controlled by the 5 thieves?

    This is a very interesting conversation Bhagat Singh and has really got me thinking.
     
  9. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    I think this will go in circles.
    I have an idea, let's define what the 5 thieves are.
    I define them as extreme forms of pride, attachment, anger, lust, greed.

    Those emotions are required in daily life, but the extremes is what I think Guru sahibs tell us to stay away from. The extremes ruin our lives. The extremes cause illnesses. The "rog" is precisely this illness.

    I think these extremes can be controlled by:
    meditating (calming our minds)
    volunteer work (creates a sense of hapiness when we see others get happy, it takes us away from our own world and puts us out there, unlike meditating where we may explore our own world, evalutate ourselves)
    honest living (will keep you from stress, which is a factor in causing those extremes. the problems associated with the opposite of honest living fire up those extremes)

    Its funny how Guru Sahibs tells us the way to God is through the above methods. I see that and think that God is not the issue here, god is not important, believe in whatever you want but keep these things in mind. These are practical and can be confirmed with scientific tests. These are based on the least amount of assumptions, whereas believing in a God, is an assumption on its own.
    Witty persons know how to get people to do good things. Guru Sahibs did jus that.
    I think Sikhi is both for atheists and theists. To theists Guru Sahibs will say this is the way to God. for atheists Guru Sahibs will say this is a healthy way to live and is for a better state of humanity. This is the conclusion I come to.
    Then I see the sargun - nirgun concept which confirms exactly that. it takes every possible God into account.

    But Randip Singh ji, I totally see the limitations of my brain. Perhaps, I am falling for confirmation bias, only considering evidence that confirms by belief rather than trying to disconfirm the beliefs by looking for evidence that counters them.
    So I do try my best to see if there is something I am missing out on.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Or obsession with? but either way correct.

    Agreed


    Agreed

    I think again you are correct. It is really not important what name we use, but the concept of God encapsulates what you have stated above. This "Higher Conciousness" focuses the human psyche to aim for something better.

    Have you ever read the Big Book from Alcoholics Anonymous? I am not saying you are an Alcoholic, but my friend passed it to me to look at the concept of God in there. Have a look.

    No, it's good to question and confirm.

    I don't believe in blind faith, but I do believe that there something there that we don't quite understand. Like I said, like the Force concept in the Star Wars films.

    BTW I don't believe in miracles, heaven , hell etc.
     
  11. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Randip Singh ji, What I am trying to focus your attention towards is this:
    You replied to that with:
    You left me confused. :confused:
     
  12. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Ok, what do you understand by the concept of God?
     
  13. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Its in my first post Randip Singh ji, although in my mind its way more complex and cluttered.
     
  14. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
    Expand Collapse
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Messages:
    4,559
    Likes Received:
    6,988
    Bhagat Singh ji and Randip Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I have been following your interaction on the subject in this thread and could not resist pitching in. So allow me to express myself a bit on it.

    The definitions of God & Atheist according to the dictionary:-

    a·the·ist [​IMG] ([​IMG][​IMG]th[​IMG]-[​IMG]st) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]NOUN: [/SIZE]




    One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
    1. [SIZE=-1]God[/SIZE] <LI type=a>A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
    2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
    3. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
    4. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
    Dictionary: Online definitions and pronunciations - Yahoo! Education

    Now let us see what is IK ONG KAAR according to Moolmanter?

    Ajuni Sahibangh= Creative Energy. In other words, NOT a personified DEITY whom the atheists define as God.

    So in nutshell what/whom the atheists call GOD has nothing to do with Ik Ong Kaar.

    In fact I have many atheist friends who understand the concept of Ik Ong Kaar of Sikhi very well and appreciate it.

    That is why I never call Ik Ong Kaar God or Lord and have urged in this forum for people not to use it.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Neither ajuni nor saibhang when put together or separately mean "creative energy".
    They mean "Beyond Birth, Self-Existent", according to Sant Singh Khalsa's definition.
    and they mean "unborn and self-illumined" according to Manmohan Singh ji's definition.
    I agree with both but agree more with Sant Singh ji's overall translation.

    ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
    ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥
    Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.
    One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~


    ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
    ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥
    Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.
    There is but one God. True is His Name, creative His personality and immortal His form. He is without fear sans enmity, unborn and self-illumined. By the Guru's grace He is obtained.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
    Expand Collapse
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Messages:
    4,559
    Likes Received:
    6,988
    It is ok to disagree. Gurbani is like a multifacted stone lapidated by our visionory Gurus. Each of us see's it from our own light. I agree with Gyani Arshi ji that Sant Singh Khalsa's interpretation is the worst of all and is distorting and misleading.

    You may also disagree with the following:-

    http://www.sikhism.us/gurmat-vichaar/16256-mool-mantar-the-blueprint-sikhi-marg.html

    Tejwant Singh
     
  17. sadhu

    sadhu
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2009
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    22
    bhagat singh ji,

    i was going through this discussion for a while.

    I totally agree with you here.

    If god was the creative energy, it was again in duality. As creative and destructive energies both go together, they are two aspects of the same phenomenon. According to gurbani god is beyond all dualities. It is transcendental.
     

Share This Page