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Are Sikhs Hindus?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Sikh80, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Sikh Identity - Are Sikhs Hindus?

    Who are the Sikhs? And what is Sikhism? It is not possible to understand the Sikhs or appreciate their religion, Sikhism, without studying their history and the circumstances under which Sikhism was born.


    To answer the above questions we must go back to the times of Sri Guru Nanak Dev (1469 to 1539), the founder of the Sikh religion. Sikhism began with the preaching of Guru Nanak. He based his right to teach on his personal experience of a hukum (command) received from God. Guru Nanak's simple monotheistic creed, supported by a set of humanitarian principles of conduct and presented with humility and conviction, made a deep impact on the Indian population, then suffering under the heavy heel of the Mughal conquerors and the ritualized Hindu religious observances. Guru Nanak won a large number of adherents to his teaching. It was the beginning of a new religious fellowship, which in course of time developed into a well-defined Faith. Its chief doctrines were the unity of God, the brotherhood of man, rejection of caste and the futility of idol worship.





    Guru Nanak is viewed by Sikhs as the preacher of a new Gospel, the founder of a new Faith, the perfect example of piety and a person worthy of deep devotion, but not to be worshipped as God.
    The new religion founded by Guru Nanak was nurtured by nine other Gurus who succeeded him in the holy office of Guruship. The Guru is the Enlightener, the instructor who shows the path leading to the Divine.




    The first Guru, Nanak Dev, lived in the 15th century, a time of immense social and political turmoil. He witnessed the brutality of the Mughal invaders who swept through Afghanistan into the Northern sub-continent of India, terrorizing, the local population. According to Sikh historian Harbans Singh, Guru Nanak's voice offered " the only vocal protest in India against the invasions of Barbar, founder of the Mughal dynasty". Guru Nanak also spoke out against the social evils of the caste system which promoted vast inequality among fellow human beings. Guru Nanak recognized all humanity as one and knew the free life was the only life worth living.




    The succeeding nine Gurus of the Sikh faith further developed what Guru Nanak set in motion. When the tenth Sikh Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, baptized the Sikhs into nationhood in 1699, he specifically commanded all Sikhs to stand up to tyranny no matter where it existed. Guru Gobind Singh, too, knew the importance of maintaining one's freedom, and he was certain to pass this legacy to the Sikh nation. Every morning Sikhs pray "Raj Karega Khalsa : The Khalsa Shall Rule". After the death of Guru Gobind Singh, Banda Singh Bahadur swept through the Punjab, defeating the forces of the Mughal rulers who had earlier outlawed the Sikhs, placing a heavy bounty on severed Sikh heads. Banda Singh's rule lasted from 1710 to 1716.


    The Sikhs ruled Punjab until it was annexed by the British in 1849 at the conclusion of the Anglo-Sikh Wars. The Sikhs were the last nation on the Indian sub-continent to fall to the British. The records show that the British recognized the Sikhs as a sovereign and independent nation. History is clear that the British were close to being routed in the Anglo-Sikh wars. Indeed, if not for the treason of a few highly placed Dogras, who betrayed the Sikh nation by sabotaging the Sikh army in return for British favours, the Punjab may never have fallen into British hands. Sikhs were also the first nation on the sub-continent to fight for freedom from the British. It was the Sikhs who suffered the overwhelming number of casualties during the ****** struggle to oust the British. Though the Sikhs then comprised 1.6%of the population of the sub-continent, 85% of those hanged were Sikhs; 80% of those exiled were Sikhs; and 75% of those jailed were Sikhs!


    In 1947, when the British pulled out of India, three nations representing three distinct ethnic groups, were recognized and specifically identified in preparation for the transfer of power : The Muslims, the Hindus and the Sikhs. The Muslims took their share in the newly created Pakistan; the Hindus took current-day India and the Sikhs opted to support the Hindus under solemn assurances by Jawarhar Lal Nehru and Mohandas Gandhi that the Sikh nation would lead an autonomous existence in the North. Gandhi personally guaranteed that no law would be passed in the new India that was unacceptable to the Sikh nation. In 1950, however, when the Constitution was being finalized, Sikhs found the document contrary to their interests as a nation, as it made no allowance whatsoever for their free existence! The Sikh delegates at the Constituent Assemble naturally refused to sign the document. The Hindu political leaders reneged on their promises.



    To this day, no Sikh has signed the Indian Constitution. Later the Sikh representative, Master Tara Singh was jailed by Nehru for agitating for the implementation of promises made to the Sikhs. Nehru is reported to have said: "I shut my ears when someone speaks to me about honoring promises made to Sikhs during the independence movement". The Sikhs were outwitted and cheated by Nehru. Sadly the history of the Sikh nation since ratification of the Indian Constitution is the story of Sikhs struggling for their most basic right of self-government in an autonomous Sikh State.

    Understanding Sikhism (The Gospel of the Gurus) by Retired Justice Choor Singh of the Supreme Court of Singapore
     
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  3. Huck_Finn

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    <<To this day, no Sikh has signed the Indian Constitution.>>

    sikh80 ji

    i hope you cross check certain facts before posting

    out of the 92 member of the constituent assembly that drafted the constitution, 2 were

    Sardar Hukam Singh(Akali) and Partap Singh Kairon(Congress)

    the above 2 were "elected" representatives through the constituent assembly elected through franchise in 1946

    and their signatures are "present" on the final constitution

    Two members had walked out Sardar Bhupinder Singh Mann and another "observer" member from Akali Dal faction asking for third state.

    If you count Rajkumari Amrita Kaur( Who was born to a sikh father, maharaja of Kapurthala and Christian mother) it could be 3 but Amrita Kaur was ( in rumors) an atheist

    EVERY sikh(self claiming) joining the IAS, IPS or Government services takes up the oath to defend the constitution.

    so please donot tell me that no SIKH is working in those professions.

    Else there might be a new SIKH ID card that Mr. Choor Singh might be providing, please enlighten.


    <<Nehru is reported to have said: "I shut my ears when someone speaks to me about honoring promises made to Sikhs during the independence movement". >>>

    although not a big fan of nehruvian policies, i never find any reference to any news agency ( indian or foreign) providing reference to all such claims of statements being made.

    ------------

    though the topic might sound relevant for discussion, the garbage inside the article makes this topic sound like a seperatist article rather than discussion on religion.

    just my thoughts on the topic-

    Sikhs are neither hindu, nor muslim, nor they are the so called "sikhs"

    Sikhs are seekers, they seek truth through the Enlightened Ones and donot believe in any of the rituals of STRUCTURED religions.

    you might like to refer back to SGGS to seek out the meaning of who is a sikh, i believe you have more knowledge of SGGS and its teachings than me.
     
  4. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    1.
    I have retained that seemed to me that would be of relevance to the topic. I have not retained p'rsnl comments and would request you to refrain from doing so that it can be discussed in a peaceful manner. I am thankful for pointing out the mistakes of facts and not of intentions. But you have yet to establish these. I shall take up the matter with the site if I am convinvinced by your reply.
    1a.
    Kindly provide the date of constitution of the committees so that these can be checked and verified. To the best of my knowledge there is difference between a document to be drafted and that is approved and adopted.


    In any case, I shall like to check before I comment upon your comments.
    [Information Required]

    1b.
    [Whether Mr. P.S .Kairon was a member or Hukum singh was a member of a DRAFTING COMMITTEE becomes irrelevant. They would have been just GLORIFIED CLERKS only if they could not get the document drafted as per what they thought they wanted to say i.e mention of a Sikh State.

    Kindly get the minutes of the meetings wherein the document drafted by them along with other members was signed. Jinnah was a smart guy for Muslims. It was/is this kind of leadership that Sikhs still need and we do not need few sycophants both in politics and also in Government Service. Hukum Singh was made Governor Of Madras and He enjoyed his life and Mr. P.S Kairon ruled Punjab over decades.
    2. Minutes Of Meeting Required
    I
    rrespective of what may emerge out, I shall be able to comment when the date of the appointment of the committee is made available to check into the correctness of that site claims to be correct and that you state to be untrue.

    [There were some other committees that were appointed By Nehru and one would like to know the committee that you are referring to.]

    2.
    Yes, if anyone is a Government Servant in any country, one would be able to serve as per the terms of appointment only. If one has to take an oath to protect the Constitution one has to be on oath else people shall not get any appointment. This applies to all the caste and communities or do you think that there should be some concessions for Sikhs.



    Hence any person calling him an Indian shall have to take an oath. It is not only for sikhs. It is for INDIANS. There is no logic in statement of yours in view of the context and the thrust of the topic.

    Yes, about three years back a Sikh Chief Secy. of UP had to resign 3 days before/prior to retirement due to corrupt practices in Taj corridor case.

    It is the reputation that Sikhs in IAS are earning for the community.
    Now pl. do not tell me that you do not know and it cannot happen.

    3.
    Things do not change if you are not a fan of Nehru.

    I shall request that kindly check the statements that you author so that we can process it peacefully. Although I did not have any intention of entering into controversy but if it is let it be. Please reply only after checking facts.

    It shall be meaningless to proceed on so called presumptions.
     
    #3 Sikh80, Mar 23, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2008
  5. Huck_Finn

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    please visit the site Constituent Assembly DEBATES (PROCEEDINGS)

    you might be able to find the relevant documents


    as a proof of the signatories, i suggest you visit the parliament exhibitory hall and see the replica copy of the signatories of the constitution

    you can see aforementioned signatures


    <<[Whether Mr. P.S .Kairon was a member or Hukum singh was a member of a DRAFTING COMMITTEE becomes irrelevant. They would have been just GLORIFIED CLERKS only if they could not get the document drafted as per what they thought they wanted to say i.e mention of a Sikh State. >>

    double standards, you are making personal comments on character of two distinguished gentlemen, one of whom the majoriy of punjab even elected their chief minister.

    in debates this is called negation of exact by generalization, how can you prove that they were "mere clerks" ?

    and WHY do you think a SIKH state is needed?

    <<Any comments on this, Sir.Mr. Kairon was and has been ‘stated to be’ a personal servants of Nehrus. Both joined hands with congress and lived their lives peacefully. We do not need such kinds of Sikhs and the entire community is paying for the mistakes of some traitors>>>

    dear SIKH80 ji

    just your statement of Mr. Kairon as a "traitor" and "servant" of Nehru doesnot make him one.

    just as you "might" be miserable being cheated out into being born as an Indian, i am proud to be one and this doesnot make YOU a better person , nor it makes me a worse.

    i request you to abstain from mud slinging on deceased persons without FACTS,

    i am still waiting for the "sources" to prove your quoted article's contents -

    <<<<Nehru is reported to have said: "I shut my ears when someone speaks to me about honoring promises made to Sikhs during the independence movement". >>>>>


    <<They would be equally guilty of misrepresenting the Sikhs if in the final document there was no mention of Independent and autonomous state of Sikhs.>>>

    Please provide me any CENSUS source/opinion poll stating that SIKHS wanted a seperate independent nation.

    please just donot make assumptions that sikhs were fighting for khalistan/whatever

    there might be people here on the board whose fore fathers sacrificed lives and spilled their blood for getting India's freedom. please donot demean them by saying that they were fighing for "SIKH nation"

    SIKHS were not mercenaries in the WAR for independence. They fought with others shoulder to shoulder.

    <<Yes, if anyone is a Government Servant in any country, one would be able to serve as per the terms of appointment only. If one has to take an oath to protect the Constitution one has to be on oath else people shall not get any appointment. This applies to all the caste and communities or do you think that there should be some concessions for Sikhs.



    Hence any person calling him an Indian shall have to take an oath. It is not only for sikhs. It is for INDIANS. There is no logic in statement of yours in view of the context and the thrust of the topic.>>>

    i am confused here, please donot side step from the point

    if you say that all indians take oath of constitution , then it means ALL indians and it includes SIKHS

    i only provided the fact to prove it wrong that SIKHS donot accept the constitution. please enlighten me how this is not in line with the "thrust" of the article?


    <<Yes, about three years back a Sikh Chief Secy. of UP had to resign 3 days before/prior to retirement due to corrupt practices in Taj corridor case.

    It is the reputation that Sikhs in IAS are earning for the community.

    Now pl. do not tell me that you do not know and it cannot happen.>>

    once again, you use the second fallacy of debate, giving an example and generalizing.

    one sikh IAS bad = all sikh IAS bad

    i admire the ingenuity of your logic :)

    i donot consider this statement of any relevance to the points of discussion.


    <<Things do not change if you are not a fan of Nehru.

    I shall request that kindly check the statements that you author so that we can process it peacefully. Although I did not have any intention of entering into controversy but if it is let it be. Please reply only after checking facts.

    It shall be meaningless to proceed on so called presumptions.>>.

    instead of asking me to check facts , you can help me by pointing out mistakes like i did.


    i am not of a closed mind Sikh80 ji, i am absolutely open to criticism of my statements, but only through facts and not vague statements. Also i hope that before you call some deceased as "clerks", "traitors" or else, do post DATA to substantiate your claims.

    also i did not understand that what are "non peaceful" discussions :)

    ----------------------------------------

    as a piece of advice to Mr. Choor Singh - he seems like a learned man, he should keep his hands in his pockets and stop meddling with other country's internal affairs. The moment he became an Singaprean citizen, he lost all right to yak yak on things concerning us Indians.

    i would love to see him working more productively in his free time, rather than fanning khalistani/divisive ideologies by making baseless allegations.
     
  6. Huck_Finn

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    Rebuttal to Mr Choor Singh

    in the article here Mr. Choor Singh uses vagur quotes, biased views and also twists the bani of SGGS

    i have no quallms on him proving that sikhs are not hindus, but he slyly introduces divisive comments and ideology of SIKH rule etc. that i find wrong.

    Understanding Sikhism (The Gospel of the Gurus) - Sikh Identity - Are Sikhs Hindus??


    <<<<There is no better way of closing this essay than with Divine words from our holy scripture. The Sikh religion, as projected in the HolyGranth is concerned with the creation of a just social order, social equality and peaceful co-existence as proclaimed by Guru Arjun in the following words:
    "Hun Hukum hua Meharvan da Pai koi kisae ranjhan da Sab sukhali wuthia Eho hoa Halemi Raj jio!" [SIZE=-1](AG.74)[/SIZE]
    (The Gracious Lord has now promulgated his ordinance:
    None shall domineer over others or cause pain to them. All shall abide in peace and the governance shall be gentle and compassionate.)>>>>

    let's read the whole Shabd in completeness

    it is


    ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ
    सिरीरागु महला ५ ॥
    Sirīrāg mehlā 5.
    Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:

    ਪੈ ਪਾਇ ਮਨਾਈ ਸੋਇ ਜੀਉ
    पै पाइ मनाई सोइ जीउ ॥
    Pai pā&shy;ė manā&shy;ī so&shy;ė jī&shy;o.
    I fall at His Feet to please and appease Him.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਕੋਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    सतिगुर पुरखि मिलाइआ तिसु जेवडु अवरु न कोइ जीउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Saṯgur purakẖ milā&shy;i&shy;ā ṯis jėvad avar na ko&shy;ė jī&shy;o. ||1|| rahā&shy;o.
    The True Guru has united me with the Lord, the Primal Being. There is no other as great as He. ||1||Pause||

    ਗੋਸਾਈ ਮਿਹੰਡਾ ਇਠੜਾ
    गोसाई मिहंडा इठड़ा ॥
    Gosā&shy;ī mihandā iṯẖ&shy;ṛā.
    The Lord of the Universe is my Sweet Beloved.

    ਅੰਮ ਅਬੇ ਥਾਵਹੁ ਮਿਠੜਾ
    अम अबे थावहु मिठड़ा ॥
    Amm abė thāvhu miṯẖ&shy;ṛā.
    He is sweeter than my mother or father.

    ਭੈਣ ਭਾਈ ਸਭਿ ਸਜਣਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਹਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
    भैण भाई सभि सजणा तुधु जेहा नाही कोइ जीउ ॥१॥
    Bẖaiṇ bẖā&shy;ī sabẖ sajṇā ṯuḏẖ jėhā nāhī ko&shy;ė jī&shy;o. ||1||
    Among all sisters and brothers and friends, there is no one like You. ||1||

    ਤੇਰੈ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਸਾਵਣੁ ਆਇਆ
    तेरै हुकमे सावणु आइआ ॥
    Ŧėrai hukmė sāvaṇ ā&shy;i&shy;ā.
    By Your Command, the month of Saawan has come.

    ਮੈ ਸਤ ਕਾ ਹਲੁ ਜੋਆਇਆ
    मै सत का हलु जोआइआ ॥
    Mai saṯ kā hal jo&shy;ā&shy;i&shy;ā.
    I have hooked up the plow of Truth,

    ਨਾਉ ਬੀਜਣ ਲਗਾ ਆਸ ਕਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਹਲ ਬਖਸ ਜਮਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
    नाउ बीजण लगा आस करि हरि बोहल बखस जमाइ जीउ ॥२॥
    Nā&shy;o bījaṇ lagā ās kar har bohal bakẖas jamā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. ||2||
    and I plant the seed of the Name in hopes that the Lord, in His Generosity, will bestow a bountiful harvest. ||2||

    ਹਉ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਇਕੁ ਪਛਾਣਦਾ
    हउ गुर मिलि इकु पछाणदा ॥
    Ha&shy;o gur mil ik pacẖẖāṇḏā.
    Meeting with the Guru, I recognize only the One Lord.

    ਦੁਯਾ ਕਾਗਲੁ ਚਿਤਿ ਜਾਣਦਾ
    दुया कागलु चिति न जाणदा ॥
    Ḏuyā kāgal cẖiṯ na jāṇḏā.
    In my consciousness, I do not know of any other account.

    ਹਰਿ ਇਕਤੈ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਇਓਨੁ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਂਵੈ ਨਿਬਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
    हरि इकतै कारै लाइओनु जिउ भावै तिंवै निबाहि जीउ ॥३॥
    Har ikṯai kārai lā&shy;i&shy;on ji&shy;o bẖāvai ṯiʼnvai nibāhi jī&shy;o. ||3||
    The Lord has assigned one task to me; as it pleases Him, I perform it. ||3||

    ਤੁਸੀ ਭੋਗਿਹੁ ਭੁੰਚਹੁ ਭਾਈਹੋ
    तुसी भोगिहु भुंचहु भाईहो ॥
    Ŧusī bẖogihu bẖuncẖahu bẖā&shy;īho.
    Enjoy yourselves and eat, O Siblings of Destiny.

    ਗੁਰਿ ਦੀਬਾਣਿ ਕਵਾਇ ਪੈਨਾਈਓ
    गुरि दीबाणि कवाइ पैनाईओ ॥
    Gur ḏībāṇ kavā&shy;ė painā&shy;ī&shy;o.
    In the Guru's Court, He has blessed me with the Robe of Honor.

    ਹਉ ਹੋਆ ਮਾਹਰੁ ਪਿੰਡ ਦਾ ਬੰਨਿ ਆਦੇ ਪੰਜਿ ਸਰੀਕ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥
    हउ होआ माहरु पिंड दा बंनि आदे पंजि सरीक जीउ ॥४॥
    Ha&shy;o ho&shy;ā māhar pind ḏā bann āḏė panj sarīk jī&shy;o. ||4||
    I have become the Master of my body-village; I have taken the five rivals as prisoners. ||4||

    ਹਉ ਆਇਆ ਸਾਮ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਿਹੰਡੀਆ
    हउ आइआ साम्है तिहंडीआ ॥
    Ha&shy;o ā&shy;i&shy;ā sāmaiĥ ṯihandī&shy;ā.
    I have come to Your Sanctuary.

    ਪੰਜਿ ਕਿਰਸਾਣ ਮੁਜੇਰੇ ਮਿਹਡਿਆ
    पंजि किरसाण मुजेरे मिहडिआ ॥
    Panj kirsāṇ mujėrė mihdi&shy;ā.
    The five farm-hands have become my tenants;

    ਕੰਨੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਢਿ ਹੰਘਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਵੁਠਾ ਘੁਘਿ ਗਿਰਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
    कंनु कोई कढि न हंघई नानक वुठा घुघि गिराउ जीउ ॥५॥
    Kann ko&shy;ī kadẖ na hangẖ&shy;ī Nānak vuṯẖā gẖugẖ girā&shy;o jī&shy;o. ||5||
    none dare to raise their heads against me. O Nanak, my village is populous and prosperous. ||5||

    ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਘੁੰਮਾ ਜਾਵਦਾ
    हउ वारी घुमा जावदा ॥
    Ha&shy;o vārī gẖummā jāvḏā.
    I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to You.

    ਇਕ ਸਾਹਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਦਾ
    इक साहा तुधु धिआइदा ॥
    Ik sāhā ṯuḏẖ ḏẖi&shy;ā&shy;iḏā.
    I meditate on You continually.

    ਉਜੜੁ ਥੇਹੁ ਵਸਾਇਓ ਹਉ ਤੁਧ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੬॥
    उजड़ु थेहु वसाइओ हउ तुध विटहु कुरबाणु जीउ ॥६॥
    Ujaṛ thėhu vasā&shy;i&shy;o ha&shy;o ṯuḏẖ vitahu kurbāṇ jī&shy;o. ||6||
    The village was in ruins, but You have re-populated it. I am a sacrifice to You. ||6||

    ਹਰਿ ਇਠੈ ਨਿਤ ਧਿਆਇਦਾ
    हरि इठै नित धिआइदा ॥
    Har iṯẖai niṯ ḏẖi&shy;ā&shy;iḏā.
    O Beloved Lord, I meditate on You continually;

    ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦੀ ਸੋ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਦਾ
    मनि चिंदी सो फलु पाइदा ॥
    Man cẖinḏī so fal pā&shy;iḏā.
    I obtain the fruits of my mind's desires.

    ਸਭੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਿਅਨੁ ਲਾਹੀਅਨੁ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਭੁਖ ਜੀਉ ॥੭॥
    सभे काज सवारिअनु लाहीअनु मन की भुख जीउ ॥७॥
    Sabẖė kāj savāri&shy;an lāhī&shy;an man kī bẖukẖ jī&shy;o. ||7||
    All my affairs are arranged, and the hunger of my mind is appeased. ||7||

    ਮੈ ਛਡਿਆ ਸਭੋ ਧੰਧੜਾ
    मै छडिआ सभो धंधड़ा ॥
    Mai cẖẖadi&shy;ā sabẖo ḏẖanḏẖ&shy;ṛā.
    I have forsaken all my entanglements;

    ਗੋਸਾਈ ਸੇਵੀ ਸਚੜਾ
    गोसाई सेवी सचड़ा ॥
    Gosā&shy;ī sėvī sacẖṛā.
    I serve the True Lord of the Universe.

    ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਮੈ ਪਲੈ ਬਧਾ ਛਿਕਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੮॥
    नउ निधि नामु निधानु हरि मै पलै बधा छिकि जीउ ॥८॥
    Na&shy;o niḏẖ nām niḏẖān har mai palai baḏẖā cẖẖik jī&shy;o. ||8||
    I have firmly attached the Name, the Home of the Nine Treasures to my robe. ||8||

    ਮੈ ਸੁਖੀ ਹੂੰ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ
    मै सुखी हूं सुखु पाइआ ॥
    Mai sukẖī hūʼn sukẖ pā&shy;i&shy;ā.
    I have obtained the comfort of comforts.

    ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਸਾਇਆ
    गुरि अंतरि सबदु वसाइआ ॥
    Gur anṯar sabaḏ vasā&shy;i&shy;ā.
    The Guru has implanted the Word of the Shabad deep within me.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਵਿਖਾਲਿਆ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਧਰਿ ਕੈ ਹਥੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੯॥
    सतिगुरि पुरखि विखालिआ मसतकि धरि कै हथु जीउ ॥९॥
    Saṯgur purakẖ vikẖāli&shy;ā masṯak ḏẖar kai hath jī&shy;o. ||9||
    The True Guru has shown me my Husband Lord; He has placed His Hand upon my forehead. ||9||

    ਮੈ ਬਧੀ ਸਚੁ ਧਰਮ ਸਾਲ ਹੈ
    मै बधी सचु धरम साल है ॥
    Mai baḏẖī sacẖ ḏẖaram sāl hai.
    I have established the Temple of Truth.

    ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਲਹਦਾ ਭਾਲਿ ਕੈ
    गुरसिखा लहदा भालि कै ॥
    Gursikẖā lahḏā bẖāl kai.
    I sought out the Guru's Sikhs, and brought them into it.

    ਪੈਰ ਧੋਵਾ ਪਖਾ ਫੇਰਦਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਿਵਿ ਨਿਵਿ ਲਗਾ ਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੦॥
    पैर धोवा पखा फेरदा तिसु निवि निवि लगा पाइ जीउ ॥१०॥
    Pair ḏẖovā pakẖā fėrḏā ṯis niv niv lagā pā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. ||10||
    I wash their feet, and wave the fan over them. Bowing low, I fall at their feet. ||10||

    ਸੁਣਿ ਗਲਾ ਗੁਰ ਪਹਿ ਆਇਆ
    सुणि गला गुर पहि आइआ ॥
    Suṇ galā gur peh ā&shy;i&shy;ā.
    I heard of the Guru, and so I went to Him.

    ਨਾਮੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਦਿੜਾਇਆ
    नामु दानु इसनानु दिड़ाइआ ॥
    Nām ḏān isnān ḏiṛā&shy;i&shy;ā.
    He instilled within me the Naam, the goodness of charity and true cleansing.

    ਸਭੁ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਸੈਸਾਰੜਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੀ ਬੇੜੀ ਚਾੜਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੧॥
    सभु मुकतु होआ सैसारड़ा नानक सची बेड़ी चाड़ि जीउ ॥११॥
    Sabẖ mukaṯ ho&shy;ā saisārṛā Nānak sacẖī bėṛī cẖāṛ jī&shy;o. ||11||
    All the world is liberated, O Nanak, by embarking upon the Boat of Truth. ||11||

    ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸੇਵੇ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਜੀਉ
    सभ स्रिसटि सेवे दिनु राति जीउ ॥
    Sabẖ sarisat sėvė ḏin rāṯ jī&shy;o.
    The whole Universe serves You, day and night.

    ਦੇ ਕੰਨੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ
    दे कंनु सुणहु अरदासि जीउ ॥
    Ḏė kann suṇhu arḏās jī&shy;o.
    Please hear my prayer, O Dear Lord.

    ਠੋਕਿ ਵਜਾਇ ਸਭ ਡਿਠੀਆ ਤੁਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਲਇਅਨੁ ਛਡਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੨॥
    ठोकि वजाइ सभ डिठीआ तुसि आपे लइअनु छडाइ जीउ ॥१२॥
    Ŧẖok vajā&shy;ė sabẖ diṯẖī&shy;ā ṯus āpė la&shy;i&shy;an cẖẖadā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. ||12||
    I have thoroughly tested and seen all-You alone, by Your Pleasure, can save us. ||12||

    ਹੁਣਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੋਆ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਣ ਦਾ
    हुणि हुकमु होआ मिहरवाण दा ॥
    Huṇ hukam ho&shy;ā miharvān ḏā.
    Now, the Merciful Lord has issued His Command.

    ਪੈ ਕੋਇ ਕਿਸੈ ਰਞਾਣਦਾ
    पै कोइ न किसै रञाणदा ॥
    Pai ko&shy;ė na kisai rañāṇḏā.
    Let no one chase after and attack anyone else.

    ਸਭ ਸੁਖਾਲੀ ਵੁਠੀਆ ਇਹੁ ਹੋਆ ਹਲੇਮੀ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੩॥
    सभ सुखाली वुठीआ इहु होआ हलेमी राजु जीउ ॥१३॥
    Sabẖ sukẖālī vuṯẖī&shy;ā ih ho&shy;ā halėmī rāj jī&shy;o. ||13||
    Let all abide in peace, under this Benevolent Rule. ||13||

    ਝਿੰਮਿ ਝਿੰਮਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਵਰਸਦਾ
    झिमि झिमि अम्रितु वरसदा ॥
    Jẖimm jẖimm amriṯ varasḏā.
    Softly and gently, drop by drop, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down.

    ਬੋਲਾਇਆ ਬੋਲੀ ਖਸਮ ਦਾ
    बोलाइआ बोली खसम दा ॥
    Bolā&shy;i&shy;ā bolī kẖasam ḏā.
    I speak as my Lord and Master causes me to speak.

    ਬਹੁ ਮਾਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਉਪਰੇ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਇਹਿ ਥਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੪॥
    बहु माणु कीआ तुधु उपरे तूं आपे पाइहि थाइ जीउ ॥१४॥
    Baho māṇ kī&shy;ā ṯuḏẖ uprė ṯūʼn āpė pā&shy;ihi thā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. ||14||
    I place all my faith in You; please accept me. ||14||

    ਤੇਰਿਆ ਭਗਤਾ ਭੁਖ ਸਦ ਤੇਰੀਆ
    तेरिआ भगता भुख सद तेरीआ ॥
    Ŧėri&shy;ā bẖagṯā bẖukẖ saḏ ṯėrī&shy;ā.
    Your devotees are forever hungry for You.

    ਹਰਿ ਲੋਚਾ ਪੂਰਨ ਮੇਰੀਆ
    हरि लोचा पूरन मेरीआ ॥
    Har locẖā pūran mėrī&shy;ā.
    O Lord, please fulfill my desires.

    ਦੇਹੁ ਦਰਸੁ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਿਆ ਮੈ ਗਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੈਹੁ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੫॥
    देहु दरसु सुखदातिआ मै गल विचि लैहु मिलाइ जीउ ॥१५॥
    Ḏėh ḏaras sukẖ&shy;ḏāṯi&shy;ā mai gal vicẖ laihu milā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. ||15||
    Grant me the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan, O Giver of Peace. Please, take me into Your Embrace. ||15||

    ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਭਾਲਿਆ
    तुधु जेवडु अवरु न भालिआ ॥
    Ŧuḏẖ jėvad avar na bẖāli&shy;ā.
    I have not found any other as Great as You.

    ਤੂੰ ਦੀਪ ਲੋਅ ਪਇਆਲਿਆ
    तूं दीप लोअ पइआलिआ ॥
    Ŧūʼn ḏīp lo&shy;a pa&shy;i&shy;āli&shy;ā.
    You pervade the continents, the worlds and the nether regions;

    ਤੂੰ ਥਾਨਿ ਥਨੰਤਰਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੬॥
    तूं थानि थनंतरि रवि रहिआ नानक भगता सचु अधारु जीउ ॥१६॥
    Ŧūʼn thān thananṯar rav rahi&shy;ā Nānak bẖagṯā sacẖ aḏẖār jī&shy;o. ||16||
    You are permeating all places and interspaces. Nanak: You are the True Support of Your devotees. ||16||

    ਹਉ ਗੋਸਾਈ ਦਾ ਪਹਿਲਵਾਨੜਾ
    हउ गोसाई दा पहिलवानड़ा ॥
    Ha&shy;o gosā&shy;ī ḏā pahilvānṛā.
    I am a wrestler; I belong to the Lord of the World.

    ਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਉਚ ਦੁਮਾਲੜਾ
    मै गुर मिलि उच दुमालड़ा ॥
    Mai gur mil ucẖ ḏumālṛā.
    I met with the Guru, and I have tied a tall, plumed turban.

    ਸਭ ਹੋਈ ਛਿੰਝ ਇਕਠੀਆ ਦਯੁ ਬੈਠਾ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੭॥
    सभ होई छिंझ इकठीआ दयु बैठा वेखै आपि जीउ ॥१७॥
    Sabẖ ho&shy;ī cẖẖinjẖ ikṯẖī&shy;ā ḏa&shy;yu baiṯẖā vėkẖai āp jī&shy;o. ||17||
    All have gathered to watch the wrestling match, and the Merciful Lord Himself is seated to behold it. ||17||

    ਵਾਤ ਵਜਨਿ ਟੰਮਕ ਭੇਰੀਆ
    वात वजनि टमक भेरीआ ॥
    vāṯ vajan tamak bẖėrī&shy;ā.
    The bugles play and the drums beat.

    ਮਲ ਲਥੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਫੇਰੀਆ
    मल लथे लैदे फेरीआ ॥
    Mal lathė laiḏė fėrī&shy;ā.
    The wrestlers enter the arena and circle around.

    ਨਿਹਤੇ ਪੰਜਿ ਜੁਆਨ ਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਥਾਪੀ ਦਿਤੀ ਕੰਡਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੮॥
    निहते पंजि जुआन मै गुर थापी दिती कंडि जीउ ॥१८॥
    Nihṯė panj ju&shy;ān mai gur thāpī ḏiṯī kand jī&shy;o. ||18||
    I have thrown the five challengers to the ground, and the Guru has patted me on the back. ||18||

    ਸਭ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ਆਇਆ
    सभ इकठे होइ आइआ ॥
    Sabẖ ikṯẖė ho&shy;ė ā&shy;i&shy;ā.
    All have gathered together,

    ਘਰਿ ਜਾਸਨਿ ਵਾਟ ਵਟਾਇਆ
    घरि जासनि वाट वटाइआ ॥
    Gẖar jāsan vāt vatā&shy;i&shy;ā.
    but we shall return home by different routes.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਹਾ ਲੈ ਗਏ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਚਲੇ ਮੂਲੁ ਗਵਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੯॥
    गुरमुखि लाहा लै गए मनमुख चले मूलु गवाइ जीउ ॥१९॥
    Gurmukẖ lāhā lai ga&shy;ė manmukẖ cẖalė mūl gavā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. ||19||
    The Gurmukhs reap their profits and leave, while the self-willed manmukhs lose their investment and depart. ||19||

    ਤੂੰ ਵਰਨਾ ਚਿਹਨਾ ਬਾਹਰਾ
    तूं वरना चिहना बाहरा ॥
    Ŧūʼn varnā cẖihnā bāhrā.
    You are without color or mark.

    ਹਰਿ ਦਿਸਹਿ ਹਾਜਰੁ ਜਾਹਰਾ
    हरि दिसहि हाजरु जाहरा ॥
    Har ḏiseh hājar jāhrā.
    The Lord is seen to be manifest and present.

    ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਤੁਝੈ ਧਿਆਇਦੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਤੇ ਗੁਣਤਾਸੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੦॥
    सुणि सुणि तुझै धिआइदे तेरे भगत रते गुणतासु जीउ ॥२०॥
    Suṇ suṇ ṯujẖai ḏẖi&shy;ā&shy;iḏė ṯėrė bẖagaṯ raṯė guṇṯās jī&shy;o. ||20||
    Hearing of Your Glories again and again, Your devotees meditate on You; they are attuned to You, O Lord, Treasure of Excellence. ||20||

    ਮੈ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਦਯੈ ਸੇਵੜੀ
    मै जुगि जुगि दयै सेवड़ी ॥
    Mai jug jug ḏa&shy;yai sėvṛī.
    Through age after age, I am the servant of the Merciful Lord.

    ਗੁਰਿ ਕਟੀ ਮਿਹਡੀ ਜੇਵੜੀ
    गुरि कटी मिहडी जेवड़ी ॥
    Gur katī mihdī jėvṛī.
    The Guru has cut away my bonds.

    ਹਉ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਛਿੰਝ ਨਚਊ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਉਸਰੁ ਲਧਾ ਭਾਲਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੧॥੨॥੨੯॥
    हउ बाहुड़ि छिंझ न नचऊ नानक अउसरु लधा भालि जीउ ॥२१॥२॥२९॥
    Ha&shy;o bāhuṛ cẖẖinjẖ na nacẖ&shy;ū Nānak a&shy;osar laḏẖā bẖāl jī&shy;o. ||21||2||29||
    I shall not have to dance in the wrestling arena of life again. Nanak has searched, and found this opportunity. ||21||2||29||



    i fail to see his explanation in the whole Shabd, a beautiful divine grace i have come across thanks to Mr. Choor Singh.

    It is all about the "inner" kingdom of God, if i may take the liberty of using Chriatian theology.


     
    #5 Huck_Finn, Mar 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  7. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
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    List of Revolutionaries

    this might not be an accurate way to prove that the stas provided below by mr. Choor Singh are wrong, but goes a long way

    <<<<Though the Sikhs then comprised 1.6%of the population of the sub-continent, 85% of those hanged were Sikhs; 80% of those exiled were Sikhs; and 75% of those jailed were Sikhs! >>>>


    the link is to the list of revolutionaries and freedom fighters who were sent to "Kala Paani" or Andaman Islands - the severest form of jail (i would reckon equivalent of Alcatraz or today's Gutanamo)


    - of the total list of 600 odd , yes there are 75-90 punjabis ( mostly with Singh surname)

    but this is nowhere a representative number of the %age mentioned in the above quote from the article.
     
  8. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Dear Mr. Amar ji,

    You have not replied to the questions as asked for instead you have given a list of debates of assemblies and it was a difficult task for me to find out the details of the committee that you have referred to in the first post. I have not yet offered my comments as I have clearly stated that it would be more meaningful to proceed ahead if you are keen to get the debate moving.

    It was never the intention that this post will cause such a flutter as it was not meant for debate as it is posted under essays. But I shall be interested to carry on provided you also take pains to get it rolling by providing necessary inpputs.

    It would be futile where the constructive work is done by an individual and the second persons is an active respondent only. Your input should be based on some basic research including giving a reference to statement.

    I also note that you have strong sentiments .I shall do every thing so that you do not feel ensnared. I have the least intention of harming anyone in any case. It seems that you have become emotional. Kindly excuse me if I have been the cause of any agony.

    02.

    a.
    If you happen to know the details of the Committee that was constituted by Mr. Nehru and in which Kairon and Hukum singh were members ,please let me know the exact link. I have looked in to the first two and could not find the same.

    Frankly speaking, I have made the best effort but could not locate that you have referred to the two specific members.Kindly give the URL as to lend credence to your assertions.

    Pl. look into let me know the same.

    03.
    b.
    I have provided the link that you have asked for in the original article. If you are not able to locate the exact post/essay wherein the reference to the quote of Nehru is given ,please state so and I shall help you out by giving the exact address by URL listing.

    04.
    C

    In case of some problem that you are to maintain a particular stand due to occupational hazards please let it be known ,I shall not force you with unnecessary data /details.

    [If you are in Service of Government of India Service ,please stop this discussion. It may be in your interest only.It is brotherly suggestion only. It would be your decision that would prevail. I have no problems as I am not in Government service.]

    I also love my country as much as you do. Inspite of having undergone the trauma of 1984 I still prefer india to US or Canada as I think that I can meet my bills and buy my milk comfortably here.

    05.
    D.
    All that you have stated as a proof that Sikhs wanted a separate nation is a historical fact and I think it can be proved and there should be no problem. You may have your compulsions, though to not to agree. Let us be open to one anothers suggestions ,if these are backed up and we are convinced.
    06.
    E
    WE can always disagree without being disagreeable. Let us maintain and follow the basics essential for a debate i.e a cool mind without getting sentimental so that congeniality is maintained.

    07.
    F.
    You may like to reply to my initial post in a pointed manner and I shall respond else it may not, I fear , a fruitful discussion.
    I would expect a plain and simple reply to the query posted in points at Sl.1 and 2.

    Regards.

    E & O.E.
    Ps.
    Let us not mention Bani for the time being, if you feel it appropriate as both of us are trying to learn an area that is yet not known to many of us.
    This is not a debate .It is more of discussion. No one is a winner or a loser here. You put across your point and I shall put mine till we converge.

    An-ul-Haq
     
    #7 Sikh80, Mar 23, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2008
  9. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
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    Dear Sikh80 ji
    <<You have not replied to the questions as asked for instead you have given a list of debates of assemblies and it was a difficult task for me to find out the details of the committee that you have referred to in the first post. I have not yet offered my comments as I have clearly stated that it would be more meaningful to proceed ahead if you are keen to get the debate moving.>>


    i have provided you the link to minutes of meetings

    they worked for 2-3 years i think, so please donot expect me to provide every sentence as verbatim.

    <<It was never the intention that this post will cause such a flutter as it was not meant for debate as it is posted under essays. But I shall be interested to carry on provided you also take pains to get it rolling by providing necessary inpputs.

    It would be futile where the constructive work is done by an individual and the second persons is an active respondent only. Your input should be based on some basic research including giving a reference to statement.>>


    yes i think i might be doing the futile work, as i have not received any answer except you first copy paste of the article. I have provided you all the resources to look up the minutes of meeting as you requested. If you are in india, i presume, you can call up the lok sabha and make a visit at your leisure to "see" the edifice i had refered to.

    However i can provide you exact date of first meeting of working Committee that drafted and ratified the Constitution - Dec 9, 1946

    <<I also note that you have strong sentiments .I shall do every thing so that you do not feel ensnared. I have the least intention of harming anyone in any case. It seems that you have become emotional. Kindly excuse me if I have been the cause of any agony. >>

    Sikh80 ji

    please donot worry if i have become emotional or not, though i understand and appreciate your intentions.

    Your posted article made false accusations against "my" nation and its my duty to reply it back with approporiate facts. It is from your side that i am missing any facts except an article by a singaporean national trying to fan divisive emotions.

    <<I have provided the link that you have asked for in the original article. If you are not able to locate the exact post/essay wherein the reference to the quote of Nehru is given ,please state so and I shall help you out by giving the exact address by URL listing.>>

    i have ot yet seen an "official" link that proves that Nehru made those comments. What you have provided is an "opinion" link, which i am directing my ire against, for the fact that it grossly misleads by providing unbased and unverified statements.

    I read through the whole article you gave in the link and that's why i made two more posts to provide details of fallacy in the articles of Mr. Choor singh. His article doesnot have any bibliography.

    You might like to provide me an "official" and "credible" source like i did link to parliamentary archives and minutes of meetings.


    <<In case of some problem that you are to maintain a particular stand due to occupational hazards please let it be known ,I shall not force you with unnecessary data /details.

    [If you are in Service of Government of India Service ,please stop this discussion. It may be in your interest only.It is brotherly suggestion only. It would be your decision that would prevail. I have no problems as I am not in Government service.]

    I also love my country as much as you do. Inspite of having undergone the trauma of 1984 I still prefer india to US or Canada as I think that I can meet my bills and buy my milk comfortably here. >>>

    i donot love my country because of any occupational hazard or because i find it cheap to live in. I love it because it is my "motherland" and i will continue to defend it against slander.

    <<You may like to reply to my initial post in a pointed manner and I shall respond else it may not, I fear , a fruitful discussion.
    I would expect a plain and simple reply to the query posted in points at Sl.1 and 2.>>

    i am afraid Mr Sikh80, i have done the best i can within my time. the onus in now on you to prove the truth of the statements made in the post you made or the article you quoted.

    else you may choose to say that you were unaware of the facts.

    i also donot think there will be any fruitful discussion if only one person has the onus to provide links :)

    regarding Bani, i just showed you the wrong quote and meaning twisting done my Mr. Choor Singh. You might have compulsions to ignore it, but as you posted the link, it had Bani in it which was mis interpreted. I just provided the source to halp point out the fallacy.


    ----------------

    PS

    Sikh80 ji, yes there need not be any winner or loser and i donot want internet typing warfare, but i hope that in future you would provide articles with deptha nd credibility if you are making statements against other people

    i rest my side of discussion. You are completely free not to respond to this post.
     
  10. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Dear Mr Amar ji,

    Kindly note the following :
    1.
    Nehru is reported to have said: "I shut my ears when someone speaks to me about honoring promises made to Sikhs during the independence movement...

    2.
    The exact URL is here.
    Understanding Sikhism (The Gospel of the Gurus) - Sikh Identity - Are Sikhs Hindus?

    3.
    Every morning Sikhs pray "Raj Karega Khalsa : The Khalsa Shall Rule".

    [ I also do pray this in the morning like any other sikh]


    Meaning

    Khalsa will Rule. [ Definitive form]

    You may kindly note that in the original Article the 'word' used /employed is reported to have said. Obviously, It is clear as to what is to be implied by the statement.

    In the meantime I shall go thru. the proceedings as the date has been mentioned by you and things will be easier now.

    In any case I shall put my remarks when the study is over as it looks to be a fairly long document.It would be irrespective of the fact whether what you have stated is correct or not. It would be sharing with all those who are reading this. It shall have some value for those interested.

    It may take some time. Kindly bear with me till then.
    Forgive me if this was not expected.

    Warm Regards.

    E. & O.E
     
  11. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
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    <<Every morning Sikhs pray "Raj Karega Khalsa : The Khalsa Shall Rule".

    [ I also do pray this in the morning like any other sikh]


    Meaning

    Khalsa will Rule. [ Definitive form]

    You may kindly note that in the original Article the 'word' used /employed is reported to have said. Obviously, It is clear as to what is to be implied by the statement. >>

    Sikh80 ji

    thank you for explaining me the new meaning of your morning prayer :)

    btw I am just curoius about the source of this part of Ardas. Maybe you or any other learned member of the board can shed some light.

    In journalism, if some news channel broadcasts that, assumingly, "XYZ" is a criminal etc and continues to attribute any sentences to the person, under IPC the news channel is liable to defamation motions by the person against whom allegations were made.

    s
     
  12. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    I note your implied message contained in the above and have nothing to discuss with you anything more, the posts objected to by you have been edited long back. You may know the things better.

    I shall take up the issue with the members as and when the study is over though the details of the assembly are meaningless unless approved. Also it is meaningless if any sikh signs or not as ultimately it is the supreme legislature/parliament that has to approve the constitution or to bring about any amendment. It is the quorum that matters and not a sikh, howsoever, high or low position he may hold.

    Be followed by your priorities.
     
  13. kilemba

    kilemba
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    Sikhs are not Hindus and this is a proven fact and is easily distinguished by the rest of the world
     
  14. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Yes, But Constitution Of India does not state so. India is the originator of Sikhi. The debate is in this light.
    If sikhs are treated as Hindus by the constitution Of India it is logical that this would be the recognition given by the entire world. Everyone will look at this authentic Document to establish if sikhs are Hindus or otherwise.
    Seems logical too.
     
  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Sikh 80 ji

    All Sikhs are considered Hindus by the Indian Constitution :confused::confused::confused:

    Maybe a little more clarification is needed for the average non-Indian reader -- both about the constitution and the practical application of this.

    My understanding-- and no doubt it is flawed -- is that Sikhs are grouped with Hindus in consideration of minority/majority status when compared to scheduled classes (formerly known as untouchable castes). So the representation of Sikhs makes them members of majority classes along with Hindus for purposes of allocating governmental resources and political positions or placements in universities. But Sikhs are not condered Hindus per se. The census data for India still distinguishes Sikhs, Jains, Muslims, and so forth from Hindus.

    This is a really confusing issue for most people who are not from India. Maybe you or someone else could go into more detail.

    Thanks
     
  16. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Obviously all the sikhs are to be treated as per the constitution. There is no specific benefit that may flow to sikhs for this. Sikhs have also backward classes [ Other Backward classes, here known as OBCs] and they get there reservations for the backward classes.

    However, Sikhs, although in minority are not able to get any benefit for their being intrinsically minority in nature. But the minority status is not available to sikhs. Even the Muslims which may be 10 times the sikhs have this minority benefit to the extent that they get the 'Haj' subsidy for undertaking their Haz/pilgrimage from the tax payers money. Government Of India subsidises it.


    I shall quote the following for the benefit of those interested. It is an Article 25 of constitution Of India and is self explanatory.

    RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF RELIGION
    25. Freedom of conscience and free profession, practice and propagation of religion.-

    (1) Subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of this Part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion.

    (2) Nothing in this article shall affect the operation of any existing law or prevent the State from making any law -

    (a) regulating or restricting any economic, financial, political or other secular activity which may be associated with religious practice;

    (b) providing for social welfare and reform or the throwing open of Hindu religious institutions of a public character to all classes and sections of Hindus.

    Explanation I.- The wearing and carrying of kirpans shall be deemed to be included in the profession of the Sikh religion.

    Explanation II.- In sub-clause (b) of clause reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jaina or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly.


    Had sikhs not been clubbed with Hindus they would have got the minority status and would have progressed a lot. But thanks to Sikh Leadership that was dormant for the last six decades and the credit for this goes to those sikhs as well who could not present their view points even though they had enough chance to do so. It is only a part of painful sikh history.

    Only leadership of that time i.e pre-and post independence has to take the onus. As stated by one of the members that there were sikhs included in the drafting of constitution but they preferred to not to get their view points recorded even in a vote of dissent and left the meetings without arguing and fighting for the rights of the sikhs.

    M A Jinnah was a single Muslim who was instrumental for carving out Pakistan with his pen and type writer and could negotiate with the British Government , But sikhs were mostly under the inactive,weak and inefficient leadership.

    Sikhs have therefore suffered a lot on account of the poor quality of leadership during the pre and post independence era.

     
  17. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Sikh 80 ji

    When you said,

    However, Sikhs, although in minority are not able to get any benefit for their being intrinsically minority in nature. But the minority status is not available to sikhs. Even the Muslims which may be 10 times the sikhs have this minority benefit to the extent that they get the 'Haj' subsidy for undertaking their Haz/pilgrimage from the tax payers money. Government Of India subsidises it.

    In other words, Sikhs lose at this turn and at that turn. They do not enjoy minority status and their religion and culture is glossed over by the political decisions made in the middle of the 20th Century. More bitter herbs to swallow.
    This is precisely the point that I had hoped you would make. Most people in the US who are not born into Sikhism are not aware of these situations. And thank you for including the constitution language for us to read.

    I hope that you understood my point that the blending of Sikhs with Hindus by the government is a political strategy -- I am not going to criticize the decision, because it is not my business to do so, or my right. However, I do decry the social consequences for Sikhs. And I believe that the cultural confusion about who is Sikh and who is Hindu is only made more difficult to address because of this.
     
  18. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
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    <<But the minority status is not available to sikhs. Even the Muslims which may be 10 times the sikhs have this minority benefit to the extent that they get the 'Haj' subsidy for undertaking their Haz/pilgrimage from the tax payers money. Government Of India subsidises it.>>>

    sikh ji

    pls back up with evidence.

    i had posted a link which showed that Sikhs do enjoy Minority status in india. The minority status is awarded by states and not through out the country.

    e.g. muslims in kashmir donot enjoy minority status for job benefits

    Sikhs in Andhra and Karnataka get those benefits.

    Sikhs will not get job/studying benefits in punjab as they are majority there.

    pls donot write without facts.

    The train jathas to Nankana sahib are also subsidised by government

    SGPC colleges have been run till now as minority institutes

    pls donot mis guide people !! This is my humble request

    i had pointed out the fallacies of your logic and hoped that you would correct your approach of making claims without providing evidence.

    <<Explanation II.- In sub-clause (b) of clause reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jaina or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly>>

    this is a generalization made for religious worship places.

    however you chose to ignore the line above:

    <<The wearing and carrying of kirpans shall be deemed to be included in the profession of the Sikh religion. >>>

    Indian census data, minorities commission and courts recognize Sikhism as a seperate religion.

    however for simplicity till now the marriage act was the only common thread.

    Do you know that Sikh religious places are governed under a law different from the one used for Hindu(jain & buddhist included) ???
     
  19. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    I have put up constitution' Article and it is for everyone to read and interpret. I do not want anyone to interpret things for me. Nor was your expert opinion required on this.

    Muslims get the 'haz allowance' on the basis of minority in India or in any particular state only. Kindly clarify. I think they get subsidy because they are Muslims. You may correct me.

    Is the number of jatha as big as the haajis.? Kindly clarify. Does jatha get the allowance every year and what is the size.?
    I am not aware. You may like to throw some light on this as well if you are aware of these figures.

    Are sikhs entitled for minority class in the cases of admission to various educational institutions/Government services all over India. Muslims get it all over the country. Had sikhs been treated as minority it should have been declared minority ab inito and de Facto.Sikhs have neither any minority status and nor will they have it both de juro and de facto. You replies should state the facts in a right manner.

    A simple question to ponder: why in the above article 25 the sikhs have been included at the first place?

    Things should have been simpler for sikhs to claim the minority status if the article was silient about this. The constitution Of India is most authentic document for any third Government to make a reference to. Do you think the French Government or the Government of US will listen to any individual or establish the identity of the sikhs through the written constitutional document that as per your goodself was drafted by some learned sikhs as well who preferred to not to sign the draft?

    Let us face facts.

    Ps.
    I am taking off for a week and shall be able to attend to your posts after a week.Pl excuse me for this.

    Also stop playing elder brother or state ....... do you know...???

    Yes, I do know many other things and it is not necessary here unless it is required.
     
  20. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Let me also remind you,sir, that Sikhs have undergone the massacre of 1984 on account of some leaders of the ruling party and includes very prominent names.Hope you know this very well. Sikhs were cut and burnt like animalsand not butchered as I think a butcher will also not do this to an animal that was done in India with the sikhs. It should be a single example in the history as to how to kill.

    I am a victim of this massacre that was irrational. Do you think it was political expediency or urgency.?It was neither. It was the hatred for the sikhs that got a vent out.

    What was the crime of sikhs?.The single sikh gaurd who shot the prime minister became the insignia for the entire community. It is beyond any ridiculism; Beyond any comprehensible human logic. It was without any reason. Your reason shall also fail to reason out the reason. Do you have any reply. Sir.? Do you not sympathise with the sikhs who suffered the trauma.?
    My parents and most of my close extended family had also paid the price.
    It could not have happened if the sikhs had the minority status as this would have made them powerful enough to ward off the madness. Don't you agree sir?
    I hope you have not suffered the trauma of 84 riots. It is good for you as you are in Government service. My father was also in Government service but he died young. My mother is still nursing herself out of the shock and she is sick.
     
  21. Huck_Finn

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    <<I do not want anyone to interpret things for me. Nor was your expert opinion required on this.>>

    sikh ji

    i did not make any EXPERT comments, i only pointed out the errors. I am not a constitutional expert, but it doesnot take one to point out the false. and i think no one needs a license to point out mistakes, specially on a board.

    However if that hurts you, my bad !!


    <<<Muslims get the 'haz allowance' on the basis of minority in India or in any particular state only. Kindly clarify. I think they get subsidy because they are Muslims. You may correct me.

    Is the number of jatha as big as the haajis.? Kindly clarify. Does jatha get the allowance every year and what is the size.?>>>

    Sikhs also get the Jatha allowance based on minority status and is not linked to state etc.

    I am not currently in punjab, else would have been more than happy to get you the numbers, why don't you yourself apply for Jatha visit and find out ?

    I think a train full of people goes every year...my guess...could be 1000 odd people...


    Muslims are 17% and sikhs are mere 2%, so the funds are apportioned accordingly.

    <<Are sikhs entitled for minority class in the cases of admission to various educational institutions/Government services all over India. Muslims get it all over the country.>>>

    no muslims do not get it all over india.

    sikhs get it in AP & Karnataka, where they are sizeable minority.


    <<Had sikhs been treated as minority it should have been declared minority ab inito and de Facto.Sikhs have neither any minority status and nor will they have it both de juro and de facto.>>>

    sikhs have a minority status. They are listed as beneficiaries of the provisions of the minority Commission, how the benefits are delivered are decided by the states of residence.

    <<Also stop playing elder brother or state ....... do you know...???

    Yes, I do know many other things and it is not necessary here unless it is required.>>>


    is this a threat??

    i hope you can maintain decorum of a sane and civil discussion, which i always strive to do. I have not tried to do any Big Brother or state act with you.

    and please stop making assumtions that i am a government employee spying on you...hahahaha

    i am just an Indian citizen defending my constitution against falsification and mud slinging. I am just trying to bring another perspective. You might like it or dislike it, it's your choice.

    Have a nice time in your week off.

    PS

    I do not want to reply to your second post as i believe it stems more from an anguished heart than a calm mind.

    except for one point:

    <<It could not have happened if the sikhs had the minority status as this would have made them powerful enough to ward off the madness. Don't you agree sir?>>>

    this has happened a lot in other placs too. This is not a justification, but minority status or not, it might not have made a difference, sadly.

    God Bless you with peace.
     

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