Ardas Over Food = Purification Like Halal?

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Another important thing. Our ARDASS is always the SAME. Its a STANDARD and the words cannot be changed/altered.
In a Gurdawra..its right at the END when the Creator is THANKED for the Deg and Langgar and it is announced that it is ATTUT (available to ALL and anybody and everybody irrespective of any distinctions...and no one will be turned away and may the food never run out.)
Thsese words are said at the conclusion of every ardass because the DEG is compulsory at each ocassion while langgar may be optional. THESE WORDS are NOT WRITTEN AS PART of the Official ARDASS and are added by the person leading the prayers...and may be changed as long as the general meaning remains the same.

2. The ARDASS is read at each and every ocassion..sad as well a s happy..wedding..as well a s funeral..NO SIKH Ocassion is complete without an ARDASS.

3. The KALMA are not like that. No one can change a single word....

 

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat ji

The comment below tends to get mixed up.....
I don't want to have to close yet another thread because the conversation has gone nowhere.
Could we return to the subject of ardaas, and halal, and whether they are the same thing-- unless everything that can be said has been said.

Yes seems like everything has been said. Anything, whatever I will lsay now will be off topic.
And no I was not generalizing to Sikhs, when I said Nihangs I meant Nihangs not Sikhs in general.
Anyway, good to see your on your toes.

i would just to like to know why.

Similarly, my dad sprinkles water on me after he does paath because the water is enchanted. I think I know why.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Bhagt Singh Ji,

ASK him .
Water or other stuff CANNOT become enchanted by any means.....and i mean MEANS.
But I have also seen..water bottles in their tens placed under the SGGS during Akhand Paath...presumably to make the water "enchanted" !!! What LAZY people...they cant even spare the time to even listen much less do the paath themselves...but they want other's effort of reciting paath to make their water enchanted FOC. no bigger fools than these.
A person i know sprinkles such enchanted water....after chanting the name of his Radha Soami Guru on it. He sprinkled it on ME..as he was hoping for ME to AGREE to his proposal...boy..was he SURPRISED when the water didnt do a thing..I REJECTED his proposal out of hand...a friend told me he went into shock..muttering..Maharaj ji ne taan bhut strong mantar parrh ke panee ditta see..kee ho gayah ??
What a FOOL. If he had put his proposal logically..i may have accepted....:ice:

 

[BhagatSingh]

Aad ji does that clear up the "??????" in my post.
people think parshad gets enchanted because gurbani is read right next to it. And this results in them picking parshad off the floor.

ASK him

I did, he said paath has so much shakti! Basically, the everyday "reasoning" of many Sikhs...
That's why mahapurakh kept water near them while meditatin so that it becomes enchanted. ... And I thought they kept water near so that they didnt have to distrupt their meditation too much for a little drink of water.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

<<<<<<<<<<<And I thought they kept water near so that they didnt have to disrupt their meditation too much for a little drink of water.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You were wrong !!! During meditation..no thirst is felt !! anyway a "mahanpursh" worth anything would have chelas on the ready to do his slightest bidding....and most MP dont drink mere WATER...when they can have MILK...and ????

Shaktee comes from FOLLOWING GURBANI...not enchanted waters.:happy:

 

[Archived_Member4]

Here's some interesting facts of water after certain music is read around it. View the slides

Water Crystals after listening to Folk Dance Music!

 

[Randip Singh]

Yes seems like everything has been said. Anything, whatever I will lsay now will be off topic.
And no I was not generalizing to Sikhs, when I said Nihangs I meant Nihangs not Sikhs in general.
Anyway, good to see your on your toes.

i would just to like to know why.

Halaal as I understand it is a ritual purification. A sacrifice. A prerequisite to becoming Muslim. It also has connotation with Abraham and the sacrifice of the goat (rather than his son) to God on specific occasions (Eid). They are in effect saying to God we are purifying what you have created.

Ardaas Sikhi does not seek to purify anything. It accepts God's creations and gives thanks for them.

That is a MAJOR difference.

My contention is people are forgetting these differences.

Ardaas

 

[Hardip Singh]

Giyani jee,
I am sorry for your interpertation of the same. Tell me, what we do during the Amrit sanchar. Is'nt we are transfering the holy powers/energy while chanting the five banis into that water in the Holy Bowl with the help of Khanda.
Randeep Singh jee is perfactly right in interpertaing the actual meaning of what is Halal and what is their in Ardass.
Let's not mix two things. These are entirely two different concepts. Thanks giving can not be equated with purification rituals. Hence, Halal and Ardass are entirely two different concepts.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ardass is an inner comtemplation of thanks, strength and focus of our endeavours of whatever lies ahead or and what has been accomplished so far. That is the beauty of Ardass. It can be done anytime,anywhere, alone, with people etc etc. And Ardass can contain any wording provided we stick to our innerself.

Whereas purification ceremonies require certain kinds of rituals in all religions that believe in it and those rituals have already been explained by many above.

Ardaas for langar is done in the Gurdwaras where lots of langar is served daily in the Langar halls.It is to thank for what was planned has been accomplished, in getting the materials and preparing it and asking for the focus and strength to serve it to all who are hungry.

Purification is a Brahamic,semitic,Jaini,Buddhist, Inca and other native American religions' idea. Fortunately not a Sikhi one.

For a Sikh the endeavour is to become pure hearted- hence, the true Khalsa.

Tejwant Singh

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Teji Ji,

Finally you have hit the thread over the head with out bending, twisting, spinning or even being on the slippery slope. Please accept my heart felt gratitude.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[BhagatSingh]

<<<<<<<<<<<And I thought they kept water near so that they didnt have to disrupt their meditation too much for a little drink of water.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You were wrong !!! During meditation..no thirst is felt !! anyway a "mahanpursh" worth anything would have chelas on the ready to do his slightest bidding....and most MP dont drink mere WATER...when they can have MILK...and ????

Shaktee comes from FOLLOWING GURBANI...not enchanted waters.:happy:

So why do they keep water near them? You have not answered that...

 

[BhagatSingh]

Aad ji

Thank you -- the animal suffers - and shock and pain actually introduce high levels of enzymes into the meat which some consider harmful to humans. But that is also a digression.

Introducing high levels of enzymes into the meat? When I first read this it made sense but I thought about it again, and many questions came up.
Where are these enzymes being released? Where are they going after being released? Enzymes don't just magically appear out of nowhere, they are probably stored in the cells which end up being eaten anyways, I can understand that they might be inactive... So my question now is what do these enzymes do and why are they being released?
This could be major argument against halal and kosher meat if these enzymes are dangerous.
I mean you can call purification useless but really its not harmful. Its not needed but if we have people doing it, then its OK. But this enzyme thing you've mentioned could turn the tables.
You have made me curious to find out since Biology is one of my fav subjects.

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

Not all enzymes are dangerous. Just this particular type. I think they are released by the liver as a consequence of the shock but as I said I have to look it up and can't do that right now.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Giyani jee,
I am sorry for your interpertation of the same. Tell me, what we do during the Amrit sanchar. Is'nt we are transfering the holy powers/energy while chanting the five banis into that water in the Holy Bowl with the help of Khanda.

Hardeep singh j,
gurfateh.

Good that you brought this up. Please dont be offended but bear with me.

The Khnandeh batte Dee PAHUL ( Peevoh PAHUL KHANDE_DHAAR hoveh janam suhela )
is a very very special UNIQUE INITIATION CEREMONY, carried out by SIX carefully chosen PYARAS, in the TABIAH of the SGGS. The purpose of this ceremony is to INITIATE SIKHS into KHALSA SINGHS. The Ceremony entails acceptance of the REHIT proscribed, janam nash, KUL nash Dharam Nash..etc etc etc and DISCIPLINE.
This is called the PAHUL ceremony and there is a reason..now everyone is calling it the "Amrit Sanskaar Ceremony"...acceptable..,,,,,,BUT then so many other :Amritis" have also cropped up.....

Are you saying that the VERY SAME thing ( as the Pyaras do in Pahul Ceremony) happens to each bottle of water placed NEARBY a person doing Paath? That its the EXACT SAME "AMRIT".
Did you know that the Saadh of Pehova had such "Bottled Amrit" shipped overseas and the snagats were instructed to POUR ONE BOTTLE into the WELL/WATER TANK...and then contineu to DRINK "AMRIT" forever..endless supply !! Such Amrii can be prepared by just about ANYONE....and since its EXACTLY the same...the Panj Pyara ceremony can be dispensed with ??
Lots of people just FILL BOTTLES from the SAROVARS of Gurdwaras..especially Historical ones...this is also called"Amrit"
To downgrade further...i have seen "holy mahapursh" just mumbling some gurbani..and producing instant Amrit as well...

We are on a very very slippery slope here....and the deeper we descend...harder we fall...what say you of "water" in the Underground Municipilaty pipe supply"..flowing pass the SGGS inside the WALLS/Underground during Akhand paaths ?? The Place where I have my personal SGGS parkashed in my home has the common water pipe just inches away from SGGS..and paath goes on uninterrupted for at least 6-9 hours in my home...so how much "Amrut" am i producing hourly ?? and for whom >> my neighbours ??

GURU JI didnt intend for this interpretation. we have taken our own road. Otherwise Guru ji wouldnt have set up the SPECIAL PAHUL CEREMONY.

IF there is any intention to take this further we can set up a different thread. I also agree with randip Singh on the ardass hallal issue. Thanks so much.

 

[Hardip Singh]

Respected Giyani jee,
I fully accept your interpertation of the Amrit. Thanks for the same. Pl advice me on one more happenings; why we have a chula of water from the sarover at Harimandir sahib (at Har ki Pauri). Is it the blessed water only or due to continueous recitation of the scarced gurbani from the Harimandir sahib it gets purified to that level of AMRIT. Same act is followed by thousands at Gurdwara Bangla Sahib's chabucha in Delhi. What's the truth. Do advice.
Guru fateh.

 

[pk70]

SN Sangat ji if you allow me I feel that Amrit ceremony is called Amrit because it is pious ceremony as we revere pious Gurbani as Amrit Bani. This ceremony is pious because it is a commitment to Guru just as sacred oath is taken. Recitation of five banis is to remind instructions of the Guru expressed in the bani, those banis should affect the ones who recite and hear them, sweet water contains no miracle, it’s the miracle within his followers that Guru intended to revive for Dharma. All the stories about amrit pani, amrit srover pani are production of manmatt for petty influences. Thanks.

 

[Randip Singh]

Purification is a Brahamic,semitic,Jaini,Buddhist, Inca and other native American religions' idea. Fortunately not a Sikhi one.


Tejwant Singh

Tejwant ji,

I strongly believe that our Guru's were aware of the futility of ritual purification, or and ritual sacrifice (which I think can be lumped in this). The Guru's saw this as a form of appeasement. In Muslims they have the concept of Halaal - which not only applies to meat, but like Gyani ji has said, everything from toothpaste to ********s. Amongst Jews we have the concept of Kosher (exactly the same as Halaal), and is described not only animal sacrifice, but every aspect of Jewish life eg "Is that car knocked off, no its Kosher!". Amongst Hindu's too we have concepts such as Bali's ritual sacricie for rites of purification and God appeasement. We even have concepts such as Anustrani where an animal would be sacrificed/ and burnt on the funeral pyre of the deceased as a form of appeasement to ancestors.

I may be wrong but I think the Guru's are saying that God's creation is perfect. There is no need for you to purify it (through ritual), or use it to appease him/her (through sacrifice).

The Sikh view is, just give thanks to what you have from God?

Any views?

 

[Randip Singh]

Aad ji

Introducing high levels of enzymes into the meat? When I first read this it made sense but I thought about it again, and many questions came up.
Where are these enzymes being released? Where are they going after being released? Enzymes don't just magically appear out of nowhere, they are probably stored in the cells which end up being eaten anyways, I can understand that they might be inactive... So my question now is what do these enzymes do and why are they being released?
This could be major argument against halal and kosher meat if these enzymes are dangerous.
I mean you can call purification useless but really its not harmful. Its not needed but if we have people doing it, then its OK. But this enzyme thing you've mentioned could turn the tables.
You have made me curious to find out since Biology is one of my fav subjects.

with all due respect, this topic is not about meat but really about purifiction and how we as Sikhs are falling into that trap.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Guru Piayare Hardip Singh Ji,
gurfateh Ji.

My answer has been given most aptly by PK70 Ji above. The GURBANI is the "AMRIT"...and the READER can get it through READING/VICHAAR/FOLLOW its teachings. NO OTHER WAY.

NO body else can do it FOR YOU...no automatic.... instant...bottled..chula types ready made "amrit".
Just because hundreds of thousands...maybe millions... do it..doesnt make it right.
The whole world is into such "acts"..

I have seen the Hindus braek coconuts before their diety. I asked one pujaree..whats the reason...Oh he said..the Coconut represents our MIND...manmatt ridden. When we break the coconut...the water spills out...and the clean white flesh is revealed.... The water spilling out is the manmatt/our filthy thoughts etc..and the clean white flesh revelaed is our NEW MIND..now purified..and clean...just as God intended. Millions of coconuts get broken..BUT what can abroken coconut do to the GUILTY MIND ?? NOTHING. It is just an ILLUSION...to pacify the outer mind..that breaking the coconut purifies the mind within...GURBANI says one has to do teh EFFORT to PURIFY the MIND..through VIGOROUS ACTIONS...not simply breaking a coconut !!! The "SYMBOLISM" is there..the logic is there...BUT the people have taken the easy way out...controlling the MIND full of lust/lobh hankaar etc is difficult..buy a coconut and break it...its so easy..even a child can break a few hundred...the richer and more filthy minded..the more coconuts he can afford to PAY to break !!

To Fly to Amrtisar..say from malaysia..costs about USD 700 one time. How many poor Malaysians can afford to go visit Har Ki paurree to drink the "amrit".?? The Filthy rich..the cheats..the smugglers..can afford to go DAILY even..and the "politicians" in charge of har Ki paurree ( can through payment) make it even easier..the "amrii" can be sent by parcel post..EXACT same logic as breaking coconuts to clean the MIND !! The More people buy the cocnut theory..the more money go to the coconut merchants...similarly more people come to drink the amrit...the more GOLUCK..and spin offs come to the Merchants in Amritsar !!! Who really wants to READ...VICHAAR..GURBANi and FOLLOW..the oh so difficult REALLY HARD WORK.!!! Gurbani says..about controlling kaam, lobh, hankaar..love the enemy..dont grab others haak...dotn lie..dont cheat.....

A really pious person..who has really read/vichar/followed Gurbani as it really says in his daily life...may be so overcome with emotion...Gurus Pyaar...the Har Ki pauree may really look like Gods Duaar...and the water there may be really amrit...imho that person has the power inside him to make any water amrit...but all the rest..pushing and shoving like uncouth bunch ( I have been there many times....seen so many absolutley rude people pushing and shoving like crazy ) are just into the instant amrit types....btw i have seen many really pious souls....the really fantastic ones...and these were so difficult to find..as diamonds in a heap of stones...BUT THEY ARE THERE AS WELL..not visible..but there never the less. These have the real amrit INSIDE them through GURBANI.

Just a fact not known to many..the WATER in the Harmandar sarovar is continously FLOWING and FILTERED by a ultra modern filtration system costing millions of rupees. The water is brought form a nearby canal through underground hansali covered canal. Its not been there continously "listening" to gurbani....say a decade or something like that...many may think the sarovar water has been purified by gurbani kirtan over hudnreds of years..its just as new as the visitors thronging through...continous flow !! Can anyone be reconciled with the concept of "FILTERED AMRIT" ?? why filter something so powerful and holy ?? Logical answer ?? Much better to let the UNFILTERED GURBANI KIRTAN sink in and wash our Mann !!! Vichaar gurbani..Follow gurbani...LIVE GURBANI....and enjoy the REAL AMRIT that trickles down ones THROAT from Dasam Duaar. No offense meant or taken to anyoens feelings. all are perfectly welcome to follow their own hearts.:welcome::yes::yes::idea:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant ji,

I strongly believe that our Guru's were aware of the futility of ritual purification, or and ritual sacrifice (which I think can be lumped in this). The Guru's saw this as a form of appeasement. In Muslims they have the concept of Halaal - which not only applies to meat, but like Gyani ji has said, everything from toothpaste to ********s. Amongst Jews we have the concept of Kosher (exactly the same as Halaal), and is described not only animal sacrifice, but every aspect of Jewish life eg "Is that car knocked off, no its Kosher!". Amongst Hindu's too we have concepts such as Bali's ritual sacricie for rites of purification and God appeasement. We even have concepts such as Anustrani where an animal would be sacrificed/ and burnt on the funeral pyre of the deceased as a form of appeasement to ancestors.

I may be wrong but I think the Guru's are saying that God's creation is perfect. There is no need for you to purify it (through ritual), or use it to appease him/her (through sacrifice).

The Sikh view is, just give thanks to what you have from God?

Any views?

Randip ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have excatly expressed my views what I did in my post in a more elaborate fashion. It also shows us the difference between the dogmatic religions and their needs to create useless rituals as some snakeoil rub and which also became great sales pitches to lasso the ingnorant, and the pragmatic way of life called Sikhi envisioned by our Gurus. It was not only envisioned but all the tools were created by them and bestowed to us through sggs so we could savour this life of Miri- Piri.

What a wonderful world!

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh