Ardaas Changed

[Inder singh]

So to decide on our own which are his thoughts is sheer self centeredness and disrespect to our 10th Guru by second guessing his decision

tejwant ji

His writings are in Dasam granth sahib whose manuscripts are avaialble. Only a conditioned and biased mind will think otherwise.

I am confused about your baseless claim. What proof do you have that Ardaas was written by the 10th Guru? It is you who needs to show the proof. We have the proof which Guru wrote which Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. As Antonia ji said, one can not prove the negative.

Proof is Dasam granth. It is there and panth is following that. It is you who is doubting that. What are the basis for your opinion against it. It is you who is to show us. You also have to show us what you wrote that ardas pauri is eulogising Durga.

Once again, how do you know it is our 10th Guru's bani when he himself did not claim it? Arn't we being arrogantly ignorant here? His wearing kalgi or not has nothing to do with anything and has no bearing in this discussion.

The place and date of completion of most banis is mentioned. This you will only know if you read Dasam bani. Contemporary sikh writings starting from Sewa dass, Guru kian sakhian, rehtnamas mention that.

Declaring something without showing the detailed researched reasons based on Gurmat ideals and keeping the spirit of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the decision is blasphemy in my opinion. I have no idea what it means by mischief mongers. If that is part of the decision then it proves that Akaal Takhat does not want to have an honest debate with those who disagree which is again against Gurmat ideals because Sikhi is based on questioning. Our Gurus questioned what they deemed wrong and once again not even Akaal Takhat has the right to second guess our 10th Guru. No one does. There is no authority who can do that. It is disrespect to our 10th Guru and when Akaal Takhat does that, we as Sikhs and the followers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should raise our voice rather than keeping mum.

Sikhs are followers of SGGS ji and also followers of Dasam granth , sikh traditions, sikh history and sikh ethos that keep the faith alive. Sikhs are not only pujaris that ared one Granth . Sikhs are saint-soldiers.

That is a very valid point. Please translate the first part of Ardaas for us that you claim was wirtten by our 10th Guru in English so we can discuss about it. While doing so, keep Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our only Guru in the picture and IK ONG KAAR- THE SOURCE OF ALL. No one, nothing else.

Please point out what is anti gurmat in ardas?

Now, here you go accusing others of something that you have no proof of. Is this the Sikhi way you claim to adhere to?

Personal attacks at others without proof is anti Gurmat and shows a lot more about the accuser than anything else.

Let us just focus on the subject in the thread rather than false accusations. This will help us have an open mind which will result in making us better Sikhs.

I hope to have a civilised discussion with you which is the Gurmat way.

Tejwant ji

Please read the news given the starting post in proper. Inder Ghagha's name is there.

This is the proof of my claim. please keep abreast of news before claim.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab



Sikh missionary excommunicated
for blasphemous writings
Varinder Walia
Tribune News Service

Amritsar, October 22
Taking strong and suo-moto exception to the alleged blasphemous writings and statements by Prof Inder Singh Ghagha, an alumnus of Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, Akal Takht today directed the Sikh sangat to stop him forthwith from carrying out his religious activities all over the world.

In a directive issued on the letter head of Akal Takht, the Jathedar also took similar action against Prof Ghagha's associates, including Mr Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala, Mr Manjit Singh Sahota, Mr Karamjit Singh Gill, Mr Amandeep Singh Kang, Mr Gurmit Singh , Mr Parminder Singh Parmar, Mr Jasbir Singh Mangat and their associates.

The development is considered unprecedented since Prof Ghagga and his associates were not given an opportunity to clarify their respective positions.

Finding the remarks too obnoxious, the Akal Takhat this time directed the Sikhs not to allow Prof Ghagha and his associates to speak from any gurdwara or panthak stage.

Earlier, one Bhag Singh of Ambala was also excommunicated on the same grounds for writing against 'benati choupai' and 'ardas'. However, he had presented himself before the Akal Takht and sought forgiveness. Later, Mr Gurbax Singh Kala Afghana was excommunicated from the Sikh panth for the same reasons.

Of late, many petitions had been pouring in against Prof Ghagha, He and his group had been indulging in blasphemous writings against the Sikh ideology and 'gurbani', they allege.

Interestingly, Ghagha claims himself to be associated with missionary colleges but the Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, declared that he was not associated with the institute. The same statement had come from Gurmat Gian Missionary College where Ghagha was teaching. Mr Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba, editor of the community journal Sant Sipahi, criticsed these statements saying that merely saying that he was not associated with them had no meaning unless these institutions condemned the writings of Ghagha and Kala Afghana.

Prof Ghagha who had been an ardent supporter of cop-turned- Sikh scholar Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana, is presently in Canada. His speeches there triggered physical clashes between rival groups and the atmosphere was getting surcharged.

Ghagha started with casting aspersions against the 'bani' of Guru Gobind Singh and then came down to passing adverse remarks on the 'bani' and history of all the gurus.

The Akal Takhat directive has also given a stern direction to Sikhs not to cooperate in any of the seminars and conventions organised by Ghagha and his associates.

So to decide on our own which are his thoughts is sheer self centeredness and disrespect to our 10th Guru by second guessing his decision

tejwant ji

His writings are in Dasam granth sahib whose manuscripts are avaialble. Only a conditioned and biased mind will think otherwise.

I am confused about your baseless claim. What proof do you have that Ardaas was written by the 10th Guru? It is you who needs to show the proof. We have the proof which Guru wrote which Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. As Antonia ji said, one can not prove the negative.

Proof is Dasam granth. It is there and panth is following that. It is you who is doubting that. What are the basis for your opinion against it. It is you who is to show us. You also have to show us what you wrote that ardas pauri is eulogising Durga.

Once again, how do you know it is our 10th Guru's bani when he himself did not claim it? Arn't we being arrogantly ignorant here? His wearing kalgi or not has nothing to do with anything and has no bearing in this discussion.

The place and date of completion of most banis is mentioned. This you will only know if you read Dasam bani. Contemporary sikh writings starting from Sewa dass, Guru kian sakhian, rehtnamas mention that.

Declaring something without showing the detailed researched reasons based on Gurmat ideals and keeping the spirit of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the decision is blasphemy in my opinion. I have no idea what it means by mischief mongers. If that is part of the decision then it proves that Akaal Takhat does not want to have an honest debate with those who disagree which is again against Gurmat ideals because Sikhi is based on questioning. Our Gurus questioned what they deemed wrong and once again not even Akaal Takhat has the right to second guess our 10th Guru. No one does. There is no authority who can do that. It is disrespect to our 10th Guru and when Akaal Takhat does that, we as Sikhs and the followers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should raise our voice rather than keeping mum.

Sikhs are followers of SGGS ji and also followers of Dasam granth , sikh traditions, sikh history and sikh ethos that keep the faith alive. Sikhs are not only pujaris that ared one Granth . Sikhs are saint-soldiers.

That is a very valid point. Please translate the first part of Ardaas for us that you claim was wirtten by our 10th Guru in English so we can discuss about it. While doing so, keep Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our only Guru in the picture and IK ONG KAAR- THE SOURCE OF ALL. No one, nothing else.

Please point out what is anti gurmat in ardas?

Now, here you go accusing others of something that you have no proof of. Is this the Sikhi way you claim to adhere to?

Personal attacks at others without proof is anti Gurmat and shows a lot more about the accuser than anything else.

Let us just focus on the subject in the thread rather than false accusations. This will help us have an open mind which will result in making us better Sikhs.

I hope to have a civilised discussion with you which is the Gurmat way.

Tejwant ji

Please read the news given the starting post in proper. Inder Ghagha's name is there.

This is the proof of my claim. please keep abreast of news before claim.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab



Sikh missionary excommunicated
for blasphemous writings
Varinder Walia
Tribune News Service

Amritsar, October 22
Taking strong and suo-moto exception to the alleged blasphemous writings and statements by Prof Inder Singh Ghagha, an alumnus of Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, Akal Takht today directed the Sikh sangat to stop him forthwith from carrying out his religious activities all over the world.

In a directive issued on the letter head of Akal Takht, the Jathedar also took similar action against Prof Ghagha's associates, including Mr Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala, Mr Manjit Singh Sahota, Mr Karamjit Singh Gill, Mr Amandeep Singh Kang, Mr Gurmit Singh , Mr Parminder Singh Parmar, Mr Jasbir Singh Mangat and their associates.

The development is considered unprecedented since Prof Ghagga and his associates were not given an opportunity to clarify their respective positions.

Finding the remarks too obnoxious, the Akal Takhat this time directed the Sikhs not to allow Prof Ghagha and his associates to speak from any gurdwara or panthak stage.

Earlier, one Bhag Singh of Ambala was also excommunicated on the same grounds for writing against 'benati choupai' and 'ardas'. However, he had presented himself before the Akal Takht and sought forgiveness. Later, Mr Gurbax Singh Kala Afghana was excommunicated from the Sikh panth for the same reasons.

Of late, many petitions had been pouring in against Prof Ghagha, He and his group had been indulging in blasphemous writings against the Sikh ideology and 'gurbani', they allege.

Interestingly, Ghagha claims himself to be associated with missionary colleges but the Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, declared that he was not associated with the institute. The same statement had come from Gurmat Gian Missionary College where Ghagha was teaching. Mr Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba, editor of the community journal Sant Sipahi, criticsed these statements saying that merely saying that he was not associated with them had no meaning unless these institutions condemned the writings of Ghagha and Kala Afghana.

Prof Ghagha who had been an ardent supporter of cop-turned- Sikh scholar Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana, is presently in Canada. His speeches there triggered physical clashes between rival groups and the atmosphere was getting surcharged.

Ghagha started with casting aspersions against the 'bani' of Guru Gobind Singh and then came down to passing adverse remarks on the 'bani' and history of all the gurus.

The Akal Takhat directive has also given a stern direction to Sikhs not to cooperate in any of the seminars and conventions organised by Ghagha and his associates.

​

​

​

 

[dalbirk]

Here is good article on this topic .


Sikh Articles - Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Hindu Goddesses Kalika and Bhagauti


Guru Sahib and Kalika and Bhagauti


Based on Hum Hindu Nahin by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha​

Bijla Singh
In this article, I will attempt to clear some of the points that organizations such as the RSS have brought forward. Though most Sikhs who have knowledge of our glorious history and enlightening Bani can easily refute the points made by the RSS, however others who are new to Sikhi might become disillusioned upon hearing the parchar of the RSS. Two points that are commonly brought forward by the RSS will be countered using Gurbani and Sikh history. The two points, which this article will focus on, are, Guru Gobind Singh Ji worshipped Kalika Devi (Chandi Goddess) and the second being that he worshipped Bhagauti (Durga Goddess). I hope that the proofs, which will be provided in this article, will ensure that those who have limited knowledge on Gurbani and Sikh history will not fall prey to the parchar of nefarious organizations such as the RSS.

The RSS makes the claim that while Sikhs say that Gurmat condemns the worship of gods and goddesses, Guru Gobind Singh Ji worshipped goddesses, the proof of this is contained in Bachittar Natak.
ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥2॥
“Mahakal Kalika Aradhi”
In addition, it appears that the Guru wrote Chandi Charitar in praise of goddess Chandi and has described the importance of its recitation, e.g.
ਜਾਹਿ ਨਮਿਤ ਪੜ੍ਹੈ ਸੁਨਹੈ ਨਰ, ਸੋ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਦਈ ਹੈ ॥232॥ (ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਉਕਤਿ ਪਾ: 10)
ਫੇਰ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨ ਏਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥55॥ (ਵਾਰ ਚੰਡੀ ਪਾ: 10)
The RSS has purposely or accidentally over looked the message of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, which is contained in the Dasam Granth.
ਨਮੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਿਆਤਾ ॥ ਨਮੋ ਲੋਕ ਮਾਤਾ ॥52॥
Salutation to Thee O Supreme Knower Lord! Salutation to Thee O Universal Mother Lord! ||52||
In the above quotation, Kalika does not mean anything different from Eternal. To dispel all the doubts we show the condemnation of the worship of goddess in these six statements.
a)Guru Gobind Singh Ji has ordained the Sikhs:
ਬਿਨ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨ ਕਿਰਤਮ ਮਾਨੋ ॥
Except Waheguru (God), do not accept anyone as the ruler and controller of the world.
Moreover, it is written in the Vaar (ode) of Chandi:
ਤੈਂ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.
It proves that there is a Creator of Durga and she is His Creature. Is it possible that the Guru counsels his Sikhs one thing and he himself does the totally opposite? It is not possible.

b)Guru Sahib makes this supplication and promise:
ਤੁਮਹਿ ਛਾਡਿ ਕੋਈ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਧਯਾਊਂ ॥ ਜੋ ਬਰ ਚਹੋਂ ਸੁ ਤੁਮ ਤੇ ਪਾਊਂ ॥
I may remember none else except Thee; and obtain all the required boons from Thee. (Chaupai Sahib)
ਇਕ ਬਿਨ ਦੂਸਰ ਸੋ ਨ ਚਿਨਾਰ ॥
Do not accept anyone except God as God. (Shabad Hazaray)
ਭਜੋਂ ਸੁ ਏਕ ਨਾਮਯੰ ॥ ਜੁ ਕਾਮ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਮਯੰ ॥
I recite only the Name of the Lord, which is useful at all places. (Bachittar Natak)
ਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਨਾਮ ਆਨ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥38॥
I do not meditate on anyone else, nor do I repeat the Name of anyone else. ||38|| (Bachittar Natak)
From the above quotes, it is clear that Guru Sahib worshipped none other than one Supreme Creator. Is it possible that Guru Sahib acts against his own promise?

c)The author of a Granth writes the name of the deity he worships in the beginning of the Granth. There he writes the invocation. Scholars can tell which deity the author worships from the invocation.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji has always used the invocation:
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
One Eternal, True, accessible by the grace of the Guru.
ੴ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ ॥
One True Eternal, Victory to the Wonderful Lord.
Then how can anyone conclude that Guru Sahib worshipped Durga? It simply never happened.

d)Sikhs believe that the Ten Gurus were in reality One. Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s ideas and objectives were the same as those of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. This is written in Guru Granth Sahib Ji:
ਭਰਮੇ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥
The angelic beings, goddesses and gods are deluded by doubt. (Ang 258)
ਦੇਵੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੈ ਮਰਮ ॥
The goddesses do not know His mystery. (Ang 894)
ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥3॥
ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥4॥
One who worships the Great Goddess Maya will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3|| You are called the Primal Goddess. At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? ||4|| (Ang 874)
Then Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself says in the Akal Ustat:
ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
The goddess Durga takes refuge at the feet of Eternal and abides there.
Guru Ji further says:
ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਦਾਸੀ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਅੰਧ ਅਗਿਆਨਾ ॥
The blind, ignorant, self-willed manmukhs forsake their Lord and Master, and dwell on His slave Maya. (Ang 1138)
Guru Angad Dev Ji describes the goddess as sweeper of the court of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Then how is it possible that a descendant of that tradition could go against the ideas of his ancestors and against his own writings and worship the goddess?

e)It has been established that Guru Gobind Singh Ji only worshipped One Eternal Waheguru and taught His Sikhs to do the same. Now, let us look at the Shabad and analyze it some.
The word ਕਾਲਕਾ does not refer to goddess Kalika but to the One Eternal Lord. The word in fact is a compound word, made up of two separate words.
The first word is: ਕਾਲ - Death
The second word is: ਕਾ - of
This is not an attempt to break up words so Gurbani can be misinterpreted as in Guru Granth Sahib Ji the word ਕਾਲਿhas been used numerous times.
ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਭਉ ਕਾਲ ॥3॥
Meditating, meditating in remembrance on the Lord, I am rid of the fear of death. ||3||
ਜਿਨਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਸੇ ਭਾਗਹੀਣ ਵਸਿ ਕਾਲ ॥
Those who have not met the Primal Being, the True Guru, are most unfortunate, and are subject to death.
Therefore, the line in correct form would be: ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲ ਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥2॥
ਮਹਾਕਾਲ - Death
ਕਾਲਕਾ- of death
ਅਰਾਧੀ - worshipped
This means that Guru Ji worshipped the One Supreme Power that is death of death. By reading the next lines, it becomes quite clear that these in fact are the correct meanings.
ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥
In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord.
It is a well-accepted belief in Sikhi as well as in Hinduism that a goddess is not Waheguru but His creation. If we assume that Guru Ji worshipped goddess then we must admit that before Guru Ji started meditating there were three forms in existence: Lord (Waheguru), Goddess (Kalika) and Guru Ji himself. After a long period of meditation, He became one with Waheguru, which means three forms then became two. However, what Guru Ji says totally contradicts this baseless theory. He clearly states that there were only two in existence: Himself and Waheguru. After meditation, Guru Ji merged with the Light of the true Lord and thus became one with Him. Therefore, two became one. This proves that the worship of goddesses by Guru Sahib never happened. Not only are these stories a fabrication of the truth but also they are a grave misinterpretation of the message of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
f)Bhai Mani Singh Ji received his baptism from Guru Gobind Singh Ji and learned the meanings of Gurbani. He begins the Gyan Ratnavali with the invocation:
ਨਾਮ ਸਭ ਦੇਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਦੇਵ ਹੈ । ਕੋਈ ਦੇਵੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਨਾਂਵਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ਿਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਗਣੇਸ਼ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ, ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਸਿਖ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਨੂੰ ਆਰਾਧਦੇ ਹੈਨ, ਜਿਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਭ ਵਿਘਨ ਨਾਸ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਦਾ ਮੰਗਲਾਚਾਰ ਆਦਿ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ ।
Name of God is gods of all. Some believe in goddess, some in Shiva and some others in Ganesha and other god. Sikhs of the Guru do not contemplate anybody else other than Sat Naam (True Name) that destroys all disturbances and imperfections. That is why Sat-Naam is invoked in the beginning.
Had the Tenth Master believed in the goddess is it possible that His student Bhai Mani Singh Ji would write the above? Praise of the goddess is not the counsel of the Tenth Master. The work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is really a translation of “Durga Saptshati” in Markandya Purana. That is evident from Chandi Charittar as well.
ਸਤ ਸੈ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਯਹਿ ਪੂਰੀ ਭਈ ਹੈ ॥...॥232॥
This is the end of the story of seven hundred.
In fact, in the original Sanskrit text the ending is given with great detail. In brief:
ਦੇਵੀ ਕਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਮੇਰੀ ਇਸ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣਦਾ ਔਰ ਨਿਤ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸਭ ਦੁਖ, ਪਾਪ, ਦਰਿਦ੍ਰ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਾਸ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ । ਦੁਸ਼ਮਨ, ਚੋਰ, ਰਾਜਾ, ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਔਰ ਅਗਨੀ, ਇੰਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਡਰ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਯੁੱਧ ਵਿਚ ਪੁਰਸ਼ਾਰਥ ਵਧਦਾ ਹੈ, ਵੈਰੀ ਮਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਮੁਕਤੀ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ, ਕੁਲ ਦਾ ਵਾਧਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਗ੍ਰਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਪੀੜਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ । ਰਾਖਸ਼, ਭੂਤ, ਪ੍ਰੇਤ, ਔਰ ਪਿਸ਼ਾਚਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ । ਅੱਗ, ਚੋਰ, ਵੈਰੀ, ਸ਼ੇਰ, ਜੰਗਲੀ ਹਾਥੀ ਇੰਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਘਿਰਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਾ ਪਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ । ਰਾਜੇ ਤੋਂ ਜੇ ਮਾਰਨ ਦਾ ਹੁਕਮ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੇ ਅਥਵਾ ਕੈਦ ਹੋਵੇ, ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਵਿਚ ਤੂਫਾਨ ਆ ਜਾਵੇ, ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਭ ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ । (ਇਤਿਆਦਿਕ) (ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਪਤਸ਼ਤੀ ਅ: 12 ਸਲੋਕ 1-29)
Goddess says, he who listens to and recites daily her praise he loses fear of the thief, king, arms and fire. He becomes strong in battle, his enemies are destroyed. He gets emancipated, offspring multiply, troubles of the house go away, Rakhshas, and ghosts are destroyed. If one is surrounded by thieves, enemies, wild lions, elephants, one gets liberated. If under punishment of death from the king or sentenced for prison, there is storm in the sea, one is saved from all these troubles. Etc., etc. (Durga Saptshati Ch.12 Salok 1-29)
Guru Gobind Singh Ji has covered all of this briefly in his translation:
ਜਾਹਿ ਨਮਿੱਤ ਪੜੈ ਸੁਨਿ ਹੈ ਨਰ ਸੋ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਦਈ ਹੈ ॥232॥
For whatever purpose a person reads it or listens to it, the goddess will assuredly grant him that. ||232|| (Chandi Charittar)
ਫੇਰ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥੫੫॥
And that person who sings it, will not take birth again. ||55|| (Vaar Chandi)
The above given information, which is backed with Gurbani and Sikh History makes it crystal clear that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never worshipped the Kalika Devi. Now lets move on to claim number two, which is being put forward by the deceitful RSS and its cohorts.

The RSS and like-minded Hindu organizations make the claim that at Ardaas (congregational prayer) Sikhs always recite:
ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰ ਕੈ...॥
In the beginning I remember Bhagauti..
It clearly shows that in Khalsa Dharma there is worship of the goddess. In fact the word “Bhagauti” is ‘Bhagwati’, which means goddess. Guru Gobind Singh Ji used to write poetry in Persian script and hence Bhawati and Bhagauti are written in the same way. The writers of the Gurmukhi script, without understanding the concept pronunciation made it into Bhagauti.
In Gurmat Sudhakar the word ‘Bhagauti’ is discussed in details, which will remove the doubt of those spewing this anti Sikh propaganda and also of those gullible Sikhs who have fallen victim to the poison of the RSS. Here are a few questions that should satisfy the queries of those RSS minded individuals.
a)It is written in the Vaar of Chandi:
ਲਈ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਦੁਰਗਸਾਹ ਵਰ ਜਾਗਨ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਲਾਈ ਰਾਜੇ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਐ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥
Durga held out her sword, appearing like a great lustrous fire; She struck it on the king Sumbh and this lovely weapon drinks blood.
If the word ‘Bhagauti’ means goddess then does, the above mean, “Durga caught hold of bhagauti (goddess) and hit her on the head of Raja Sumbh and she tasted his blood?” What kind of goddess is this bhagauti? Is she a tool that can or is used to hit others?

b)Guru Arjan Dev Ji composed the verses written below in the Persian language, which were then inscribed by Bhai Gurdas Ji.
ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਦੁਸਟ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ॥
ਮਨ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਸਗਲਾ ਭਰਮੁ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਊਤਮ ਹੋਵੈ ॥…..
ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕਉ ਪਾਵੈ ॥3॥
The true Bhagaautee, the devotee of Adi Shakti, loves the devotional worship of God. He forsakes the company of all wicked people. All doubts are removed from his mind. He performs devotional service to the Supreme Lord God in all. In the Company of the Holy, the filth of sin is washed away. The wisdom of such a Bhagaautee becomes supreme……… The Lotus Feet of the Lord abide in his heart. O Nanak, such a Bhagaautee attains the Lord God. ||3||
Are the RSS and its cohorts saying that Bhai Gurdas Ji made an error while inscribing the words of Guru Arjan Dev Ji by writing bhagauti instead of bhagwati? They should pay attention to the above verses instead of blindly following the illogical interpretation given by their uneducated scholars and tell us is it Bhagauti or Bhagwati? Moreover, what is its gender? As one can see that, the word ‘Bhagauti’ here is used as masculine and hence it clearly cannot mean goddess.

c)In the Bhagauti Stotar (Panegyric verse) and in the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji it is written:
ਨਮੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਬਢੈਲੀ ਸਰੋਹੀ ॥ (ਭਗਉਤੀ ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ 1)
Hail to Siri (mighty) Bhagauti (Sword) that cuts sharp.
ਨਾਉ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਲੋਹੁ ਘੜਾਇਆ ॥
Name Bhagauti made of iron. (Bhai Gurdas Ji, Vaar 25)
Does it mean that Bhagauti (goddess – if that is the meaning) is made of iron? In Dabistan-Mazahib, Mohsanfani has given an account to which he was an eyewitness. His narration of the account should make it clear to those who are foolishly blabbering and spreading the false propaganda (Sikhs worshipped the goddess) that the Sikhs never even respected this so-called goddess let alone worshiped her.
ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਕੀਰਤਪੁਰ ਪਹੁੰਚੇ, ਜੋ ਤਾਰਾ ਚੰਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਜਧਾਨੀ ਵਿਚ ਸੀ । ਉਥੋਂ ਦੇ ਲੋਕ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਪੂਜਕ ਸਨ । ਪਹਾੜ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਪਰ ਇਕ ਨੈਣਾਂ ਦੇਵੀ ਦਾ ਮੰਦਰ ਸੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਪੂਜਣ ਲਈ ਆਸ ਪਾਸ ਦੇ ਲੋਕ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ । ਇਕ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨਾਮੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਿਖ ਨੇ ਮੰਦਰ ਵਿਚ ਪਹੁੰਚ ਕੇ ਨੈਣਾਂ ਦੇਵੀ ਦਾ ਨੱਕ ਤੋੜ ਸੁੱਟਿਆ । ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਦੀ ਚਰਚਾ ਸਾਰੇ ਫੈਲ ਗਈ । ਪਹਾੜੀ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਪਾਸ ਪਹੁੰਚ ਕੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਿਕਾਇਤ ਕੀਤੀ । ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਬੁਲਾ ਕੇ ਪੁੱਛਿਆ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਆਖਿਆ ਕੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਤੋਂ ਪੁੱਛਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਓਸ ਦਾ ਨੱਕ ਕਿਸ ਨੇ ਤੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ । ਇਸ ਪਰ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਖਿਆ ਕਿ ਹੇ ਮੂਰਖ! ਕਦੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਭੀ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ? ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨੇ ਹੱਸ ਕੇ ਜਵਾਬ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਦੇਵੀ ਬੋਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦੀ ਔਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਚਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਤੁਸੀਂ ਓਸ ਤੋਂ ਨੇਕੀ ਦੀ ਕੀ ਉਮੈਦ ਰਖਦੇ ਹੋ? ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਚੁੱਪ ਹੋ ਗਏ ।
Guru Gobind Singh Ji reached Kiratpur, which was in the state of Raja Tara Chand. People of that state worshipped the goddess. On the hilltop there was a temple of Naina Devi (goddess) and people used to come there for worship. There was a Sikh Bhairo. He cut the nose of the goddess (idol). News spread all over, the hill kings complained to the Guru. The Guru enquired from the Sikh in front of the kings. He said, “It should be asked from the goddess who has cut her nose.” On this the kings said, “Bhairo, are you an idiot? You know the goddess cannot speak.” Bhairo laughed and replied, “if the goddess (idol) cannot speak and cannot protect the body then what good you expect from her?” Then the kings were quiet.
In conclusion it would be worthwhile to say something about the goddess to our Sikh brethren.
Dear followers of Guru Nanak: First of all, consider who the goddess was and what good she has done for the world? From the Puranas we learn that she was the daughter of the Himalayas and was married to Shiva. This is why she is known by various names such as Parvati and Girja. She helped the gods by fighting against the demons. She also helped Indra a number of times to gain his throne. Indra is the god who spent his entire day watching the dance and show of beautiful maidens and passed his time in pleasures. From the Puranas we learn that there was hardly a Rishi (saint) whom Indra did not disturb while they were meditating, by sending women whose characters were morally corrupt. Indra himself indulged with the wives of the saints, one such story is that of Aahaleya. What good did the goddess perform by helping a person whose character was so unbelievably corrupt and sinful? What reforms Indra introduce on taking his throne?
Some self-willed individuals say that they do not worship the daughter of Himalaya, i.e. the goddess with eight arms, but instead they believe in her power, which they say is the Eternal power of God. We ask them, is God’s power separate from Himself? Is it Eternal? If you accept Devi (goddess) separate from God, conscious, primal and eternal and worship that, then you do not accept Ik Oankar (One God) concept of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, which is not Sikhi. If the goddess is not separate from God then to worship her by giving her a separate image is ignorance and lack of sagacity. If goddess is some transient (non-eternal) identity even then according to Sikh religion she is not worthy of worship. In principle, there is no justification for the worship of goddess in Sikhi.
Dear Sikh brothers, in our religion there have been noble women such as Bibi Nanaki, Bibi Amro, Bibi Bhani Ji, Bibi Veero Ji, Mata Sahib Kaur Ji and Mayee Bhaag Kaur Ji. Study their lives, remember their good deeds, follow them and instruct your daughters to gain good qualities like theirs. Thereby your human birth will be fruitful and you will be worthy of being called the sons and daughters of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This will make you reformers in the country.
There is another goddess which Guru Gobind Singh Ji has blessed you with. Without that, you will be greatly distant from religion. By dint of that goddess you removed injustice from Punjab and what is now called India and you were respected by the Muslims and British. That goddess is:
ਨਮੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਬਢੈਲੀ ਸਰੋਹੀ ॥ ਕਰੇ ਏਕ ਤੇ ਦਵੈ ਸੁਭਟ ਹਾਥ ਸੋਹੀ ॥
(ਭਗਉਤੀ ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ 1-2)
Hail to Siri (mighty) Bhagauti (Sword) that cuts sharp. That makes two of one and is beautiful in hand.
ਜੋਊ ਮੰਯਾਨ ਤੇ ਬੀਰ ਤੋ ਕੋ ਸੜੱਕੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਲੈ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਸਿੰਧ ਬੱਕੈ ਕੜੱਕੈ ॥
ਧਸੈ ਖੇਤ ਮੈਂ ਹਾਥ ਲੈ ਤੋਹਿ ਸੂਰੇ ॥ ਭਿਟੈ ਸਾਮੂਹੈ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਾਵੰਤ ਸੂਰੇ ॥ (ਭਗਉਤੀ ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ 21-24)
When the brave take thee out of the sheath, they roar and pass the ocean of death. They advance in the battlefield and fight advancing forward.
By turning your backs on these devis (noble women) you have offered many riches to these blood thirsty goddesses. If you had spent that on the well-being of your daughters, the name of the Sikhs would have been known like the sun all over the world and coming generations would have been grateful to you. Still there is time. If you want progress for your Quam (community) and country, establish schools and colleges where Sikh character can be infused, reinforced and nourish devis (noble women) who are strong, praise worthy and worthy of Dharma. By that your decedents will learn of the counsel of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and they will change the kali-age (age of darkness) into Satyug (age of truth). Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[spnadmin]

You know this thread topic is about Ardaas and not about about Dasam Granth per se. Just thinking out loud. And must say Dalbirk ji that your way of peeling back the layers of the onion is most fortifying to read this morning. Thank you.

Also I have taken out 2 duplicate messages. Thanks: aad0002

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

Veer ji, ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ ਜੀ ||
My phone no is...9811857449
I shall be pleased to be called upon by you. Thanks

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

Veer Bijla Singh ji, I am your fan and admirer as i have read your article "Why khalistan: translated it in Punjabi to be sent to all members and viewers who don't know English.
I have already written a blog wesikhsnothindus.blogspot.com and have to discuss, to answer many Hindus. I have also challenged RSS for an open debate.
Every Sikh shoul give a prompt reply to their wicked moves. Some of our Sikh brothers deliberately or unknowingly playing in their hands as their puppets. they are like serpentine beneath roses. Beware of them.

 

[Astroboy]

I don't see a problem in changing some words in ardas. In fact ardas should be different for different ocassions. For eg, i would recommend to do without the part which mentions Sri Nankana Sahib when doing Antim Sanskar Ardas.

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

For all readers , everyone should read Amrit singh ji's meanings of Ardaas on SPN, all doubts will be cleared. see this quting of him:--
Because this part of Sikh prayer is taken from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, no one has right to make changes in its text. In 'Sikh Reht Maryada', published by SGPC (Error! Hyperlink reference not valid., there has been given a footnote, which says, "…the initial composition with "Pritham Bhagauti…" and the concluding phrases commemcing "Nanak Naam…" must not be altered.

The Khalsa Panth added theses lines in first stanza of the Sikh prayer to remember the 10th Guru, "Daswaa{n} Paatshaah, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji! Sabh thaayee{n} hoye sahaaye" (The tenth lord, revered Guru Gobind Singh, who comes to rescue everywhere).
And no changes in Dohra is allowed. "Guru Granth ji manyo Pargat guran ki deh !!
Jo prabh ko milbo chahey Khoj sabad main leh "

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Inder ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

His writings are in Dasam granth sahib whose manuscripts are avaialble. Only a conditioned and biased mind will think otherwise.

First of all let me take the second part of your post first. You are accusing people who disagree with you having "conditioned and biased mind".

Inder ji, personal insults not a Sikh make, and you have a habit of doing that which is sad. If you read my initial post in which I asked for a civilised discussion. That is what our Gurus did when they interacted with others. So let us try to emulate our Gurus in this respect otherwise, it cheapens us to stoop to that low level which is not the Sikhi way. I am sure you know about it. So when you disagree with me, which is ok, then please present your arguments based on Gurmat values rather than these cheap shots which transmit ego,anger and insecurity rather than Gurmat wisdom.

Now to the first part.

Well, the thread is about Ardaas, we can talk about Dasam Granth in another thread while quoting lots of verses which are sexually explicit and hence anti Gurmat. But as you have inserted your favourite subject here, then one can presume you must have studied and thought about it a lot. So, let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Did Guru Gobind Singh give the name Dasam Granth?
2. If yes, then why would he have a separate Granth just on his name and add his father, Guru Teg Bahadar's Gurbani in SGGS, our only Guru?
3. If Dasam Granth is by our 10th Guru, and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, then why didn't our other Gurus have their own Granths with their Gurbani rather than complying it together in SGGS, our only Guru?

I am sure you must have thought a lot about the above questions as you have been propagating about the Dasam Granth for a long time. So please respond in details and educate us with your wisdom.

Proof is Dasam granth. It is there and panth is following that. It is you who is doubting that. What are the basis for your opinion against it. It is you who is to show us. You also have to show us what you wrote that ardas pauri is eulogising Durga.

First of all, you being untruthful here. I never mentioned what you have accused me of here, which is again a shame coming from someone who calls himself a Sikh to be untruthful so blatantly, "You also have to show us what you wrote that ardas pauri is eulogising Durga". Secondly, once again you are repeating the same thing without any proof in the first part of your post. Repeating something that you have no proof of can not make it true unless you are a used car salesman. So please do not treat our 10th Guru as a used car that you can peddle. it is disgraceful and disrespectful.

The place and date of completion of most banis is mentioned. This you will only know if you read Dasam bani. Contemporary sikh writings starting from Sewa dass, Guru kian sakhian, rehtnamas mention that.

Your above statement shows how you love to underestimate others. You have already presumed that I have not read Dasam Granth which is a shame on your part. Please do not hesitate to ask questions rather than jumping to your own conclusions about others. This is one of many Gurmat ideals that all of us as Sikhs should follow.

Sikhs are followers of SGGS ji and also followers of Dasam granth , sikh traditions, sikh history and sikh ethos that keep the faith alive. Sikhs are not only pujaris that ared one Granth . Sikhs are saint-soldiers.

Your first part of the statement is absolutely correct and I agree with you. We also know that who wrote SGGS and the way it is written,, nothing can be added or taken out from it, but unfortunately, the second part is concocted. No one knows who wrote the so called Dasam Granth and that is the fact no matter how good a used car salesman you try to be.Once you have given the proof that Dasam Granth is written and put together by our 10th Guru, then we can discuss it further and the proof should come from the author, no one else. I am sure you know that.

Please point out what is anti gurmat in ardas?

Inder ji, It is your who claim that the Ardaas is written by our 10th Guru. And as it is your claim, then it is your duty to share with us what it says and if it compliments Gurmat values prescribed in the SGGS, our only Guru, hence our benchmark. I am looking forward to reading your interpretation, NOT literal translation copied and pasted from the internet. As mentioned before whatever you claim you must have studied a lot about it. Once again, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You write in one of your earlier posts:

"They were advised by none other but by a chela of kala afghana Inder Ghagha who has been earlier excommunicated by akal takhat for passing adverse remarks against Guru nanak dev ji and Guru Arjan Dev ji in his book " Sada bera aiyon Garkia"."

My response to your above post was:

"Now, here you go accusing others of something that you have no proof of. Is this the Sikhi way you claim to adhere to?

Personal attacks at others without proof is anti Gurmat and shows a lot more about the accuser than anything else.

Let us just focus on the subject in the thread rather than false accusations. This will help us have an open mind which will result in making us better Sikhs.

I hope to have a civilised discussion with you which is the Gurmat way. "


In order to respond to my above statement you have given the following news clipping:

Tejwant ji

Please read the news given the starting post in proper. Inder Ghagha's name is there.

This is the proof of my claim. please keep abreast of news before claim.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab



Sikh missionary excommunicated
for blasphemous writings
Varinder Walia
Tribune News Service

Amritsar, October 22
Taking strong and suo-moto exception to the alleged blasphemous writings and statements by Prof Inder Singh Ghagha, an alumnus of Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, Akal Takht today directed the Sikh sangat to stop him forthwith from carrying out his religious activities all over the world.

In a directive issued on the letter head of Akal Takht, the Jathedar also took similar action against Prof Ghagha's associates, including Mr Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala, Mr Manjit Singh Sahota, Mr Karamjit Singh Gill, Mr Amandeep Singh Kang, Mr Gurmit Singh , Mr Parminder Singh Parmar, Mr Jasbir Singh Mangat and their associates.

The development is considered unprecedented since Prof Ghagga and his associates were not given an opportunity to clarify their respective positions.

Finding the remarks too obnoxious, the Akal Takhat this time directed the Sikhs not to allow Prof Ghagha and his associates to speak from any gurdwara or panthak stage.

Earlier, one Bhag Singh of Ambala was also excommunicated on the same grounds for writing against 'benati choupai' and 'ardas'. However, he had presented himself before the Akal Takht and sought forgiveness. Later, Mr Gurbax Singh Kala Afghana was excommunicated from the Sikh panth for the same reasons.

Of late, many petitions had been pouring in against Prof Ghagha, He and his group had been indulging in blasphemous writings against the Sikh ideology and 'gurbani', they allege.

Interestingly, Ghagha claims himself to be associated with missionary colleges but the Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, declared that he was not associated with the institute. The same statement had come from Gurmat Gian Missionary College where Ghagha was teaching. Mr Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba, editor of the community journal Sant Sipahi, criticsed these statements saying that merely saying that he was not associated with them had no meaning unless these institutions condemned the writings of Ghagha and Kala Afghana.

Prof Ghagha who had been an ardent supporter of cop-turned- Sikh scholar Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana, is presently in Canada. His speeches there triggered physical clashes between rival groups and the atmosphere was getting surcharged.

Ghagha started with casting aspersions against the 'bani' of Guru Gobind Singh and then came down to passing adverse remarks on the 'bani' and history of all the gurus.

The Akal Takhat directive has also given a stern direction to Sikhs not to cooperate in any of the seminars and conventions organised by Ghagha and his associates.

Inder ji,

I do not know if these people mentioned in the above news are the members of this forum. So your response has nothing to do with the people interacting with you here in this thread. Please stick to the conversation with the people here, otherwise the post becomes nothing but ranting through which no one can learn about Gurmat values and its ideals. So let us only address the people here.

In Post: 142, you said the following about Inder Singh Ghagha:

These gurnindaks have no knowledge of Sikh traditions. Especially this Inder Ghagha who has been a communist in his life and was driver with Punja state electricity board is instigating ignorants to change Sikh traditions.

Inder ji,

Is this the Sikhi way to demean others and call them ignorant because they are drivers? I am surprised at your attitude towards others. Is being a driver not a kirat prescribed by Guru Nanak? Can you please give us the list of kirats that you claim Guru Nanak gave us or is it your personal bias and discrimination which again is not a Sikhi way?

It seems from your posts and your accusations that you consider yourself superior to others where as Gurbani says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi". Do you believe and adhere to SGGS? If you did then you would not be biased.

Please elaborate your bias against others because they are drivers or involve in other kinds of kirats and explain it through Gurbani.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[GillAUS]

My opinion is that Guru Gobind Singh did not include his Bani into Sri Guru Granth Sahib because the tone and purpose of the majority of His writings are different to the overall tone of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Sri Dasam Granth deals with many issues, not only spiritual. To include such writings into Sri Guru Granth Sahib would have changed the aesthetics of it.

Moreover, I have read that another reason why Guru Gobind Singh's Bani remains separate is that only the Bani of the previous Guru can be added by the present Guru. As there was no physical Guru after Guru Gobind Singh, His Bani could not be included.

At the end of the day, we are mere mortals and do not have the capability to fathom why Guru Gobind Singh Ji chose not to include His works into Sri Guru Granth. Only the Tenth Master Himself knows His this.

Historically, the role of Guru Gobind Singh's Bani has been well entrenched by the Khalsa Panth. This can be seen by established practice (various Nihang Dals, Damdami Taksal etc.) as well as some historical accounts.

May the book of the Tenth Master continue to have its rightful role in Sikhi, alongside our Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib. They complement eachother and after all 'Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani'.

 

[Inder singh]

Inder ji, personal insults not a Sikh make, and you have a habit of doing that which is sad. If you read my initial post in which I asked for a civilised discussion. That is what our Gurus did when they interacted with others. So let us try to emulate our Gurus in this respect otherwise, it cheapens us to stoop to that low level which is not the Sikhi way. I am sure you know about it. So when you disagree with me, which is ok, then please present your arguments based on Gurmat values rather than these cheap shots which transmit ego,anger and insecurity rather than Gurmat wisdom.

Tejwant ji

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

My remarks are no harsher than the ones that you wrote in your first post for me. Please see your language before accusing others.

Well, the thread is about Ardaas, we can talk about Dasam Granth in another thread while quoting lots of verses which are sexually explicit and hence anti Gurmat. But as you have inserted your favourite subject here, then one can presume you must have studied and thought about it a lot. So, let me ask you a couple of questions

As ardas beginning is from dasam granth it is but natural dasam Granth will come in the picture.

It depends upon the person who reads these compositions. if the reader's mind is sexually oriented he will go for that. But suffice to say that Dasam granth is for Gurmukh jogis and not manmukh bhogis.

1. Did Guru Gobind Singh give the name Dasam Granth?
2. If yes, then why would he have a separate Granth just on his name and add his father, Guru Teg Bahadar's Gurbani in SGGS, our only Guru?
3. If Dasam Granth is by our 10th Guru, and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, then why didn't our other Gurus have their own Granths with their Gurbani rather than complying it together in SGGS, our only Guru?

1 It is immaterial whether tenth master gave it the name or not. name does not have any effect on the contents.

2) It is the prerogative of Guru ji. I am a mortal person and has no authority to question his decision.

3) Dasam Granth is for khalsa panth dealing with sikhism as an organized religion.

I am sure you must have thought a lot about the above questions as you have been propagating about the Dasam Granth for a long time. So please respond in details and educate us with your wisdom.

An accepted Granth needs no propagation. Khlasa panth is propagating it. Only a few heretics are waging a propaganda compaign deliberately to belittle a scripture that forms the core of khalsa panth.

First of all, you being untruthful here. I never mentioned what you have accused me of here, which is again a shame coming from someone who calls himself a Sikh to be untruthful so blatantly,

"


You wrote in your post the following
Quote
we will notice that it is against the Gurmat ideals given to us by our Gurus in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Unquote

Can you specify what is anti Gurmat in subject pauri of ardas? Give answers instead of lengthening the discussion.

Your above statement shows how you love to underestimate others. You have already presumed that I have not read Dasam Granth which is a shame on your part. Please do not hesitate to ask questions rather than jumping to your own conclusions about others. This is one of many Gurmat ideals that all of us as Sikhs should follow.

It is good to know that you have read it. You might be knowing the dates of completion of various compositions given in that. Then why the doubt?

Your first part of the statement is absolutely correct and I agree with you. We also know that who wrote SGGS and the way it is written,, nothing can be added or taken out from it, but unfortunately, the second part is concocted. No one knows who wrote the so called Dasam Granth and that is the fact no matter how good a used car salesman you try to be.Once you have given the proof that Dasam Granth is written and put together by our 10th Guru, then we can discuss it further and the proof should come from the author, no one else. I am sure you know that.

That shows your attitude of insult towrads bani of tenth master. You are being uncivilized when you call it so called dasam granth. I hope you show some sensitivity towards a scripture whose banis sikhs( except a few heretics) follow.

Let me take a practical step. You live quite close to me. My friend has three digitised copies of Dasam Granth manuscripts with him in northern california. Come and see those. Accept the offer if you are a Gursikh.

Inder ji, It is your who claim that the Ardaas is written by our 10th Guru. And as it is your claim, then it is your duty to share with us what it says and if it compliments Gurmat values prescribed in the SGGS, our only Guru, hence our benchmark. I am looking forward to reading your interpretation, NOT literal translation copied and pasted from the internet. As mentioned before whatever you claim you must have studied a lot about it. Once again, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt

I have cited plenty of evidence that says .Dasam granth was part of sikh psyche and was placed alongside SGGS in Gurmattas. Is it not enough? Since you cast aspersions on this it is your job to show us the evidence from sikh history with refrence. I am not asking for the moon. I am asking what you are supposed to furnish whenou make an accustaion contrary to sikh history and traditions.

I do not know if these people mentioned in the above news are the members of this forum. So your response has nothing to do with the people interacting with you here in this thread. Please stick to the conversation with the people here, otherwise the post becomes nothing but ranting through which no one can learn about Gurmat values and its ideals. So let us only address the people here.

I gave the facts about Inder ghagha who instigated to change ardas. You asked for proof. I gave you proof. Did it not satisfy you. If not i can post the video evidence here that shows him in discussion with some singhs in toronto where he was caught for passing stupid remarks against Guru Nanak dev ji and Guru arjan dev ji. Do you want that?

Is this the Sikhi way to demean others and call them ignorant because they are drivers? I am surprised at your attitude towards others. Is being a driver not a kirat prescribed by Guru Nanak? Can you please give us the list of kirats that you claim Guru Nanak gave us or is it your personal bias and discrimination which again is not a Sikhi way?

Tejwant ji, your heart seems to be very soft for those who resort to blasphemy and ridicule our Gurus. unfortunately that is not the case with me. I believe in couplet

Gur ki ninda sune na kaan

It seems from your posts and your accusations that you consider yourself superior to others where as Gurbani says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi". Do you believe and adhere to SGGS? If you did then you would not be biased.

It is your personal assumption. let us not focus on personalities

PS: Please post a refrence here from sikh history wherein it is stated that Ardas was anti gurmat? If you are not able to do that, please be bold enough for tendering an apology to sangat for misleading them.

 

[Inder singh]

Inder ji, personal insults not a Sikh make, and you have a habit of doing that which is sad. If you read my initial post in which I asked for a civilised discussion. That is what our Gurus did when they interacted with others. So let us try to emulate our Gurus in this respect otherwise, it cheapens us to stoop to that low level which is not the Sikhi way. I am sure you know about it. So when you disagree with me, which is ok, then please present your arguments based on Gurmat values rather than these cheap shots which transmit ego,anger and insecurity rather than Gurmat wisdom.

Tejwant ji

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

My remarks are no harsher than the ones that you wrote in your first post for me. Please see your language before accusing others.

Well, the thread is about Ardaas, we can talk about Dasam Granth in another thread while quoting lots of verses which are sexually explicit and hence anti Gurmat. But as you have inserted your favourite subject here, then one can presume you must have studied and thought about it a lot. So, let me ask you a couple of questions

As ardas beginning is from dasam granth it is but natural dasam Granth will come in the picture.

It depends upon the person who reads these compositions. if the reader's mind is sexually oriented he will go for that. But suffice to say that Dasam granth is for Gurmukh jogis and not manmukh bhogis.

1. Did Guru Gobind Singh give the name Dasam Granth?
2. If yes, then why would he have a separate Granth just on his name and add his father, Guru Teg Bahadar's Gurbani in SGGS, our only Guru?
3. If Dasam Granth is by our 10th Guru, and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, then why didn't our other Gurus have their own Granths with their Gurbani rather than complying it together in SGGS, our only Guru?

1 It is immaterial whether tenth master gave it the name or not. name does not have any effect on the contents.

2) It is the prerogative of Guru ji. I am a mortal person and has no authority to question his decision.

3) Dasam Granth is for khalsa panth dealing with sikhism as an organized religion.

I am sure you must have thought a lot about the above questions as you have been propagating about the Dasam Granth for a long time. So please respond in details and educate us with your wisdom.

An accepted Granth needs no propagation. Khlasa panth is propagating it. Only a few heretics are waging a propaganda compaign deliberately to belittle a scripture that forms the core of khalsa panth.

First of all, you being untruthful here. I never mentioned what you have accused me of here, which is again a shame coming from someone who calls himself a Sikh to be untruthful so blatantly,

"


You wrote in your post the following
Quote
we will notice that it is against the Gurmat ideals given to us by our Gurus in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Unquote

Can you specify what is anti Gurmat in subject pauri of ardas? Give answers instead of lengthening the discussion.

Your above statement shows how you love to underestimate others. You have already presumed that I have not read Dasam Granth which is a shame on your part. Please do not hesitate to ask questions rather than jumping to your own conclusions about others. This is one of many Gurmat ideals that all of us as Sikhs should follow.

It is good to know that you have read it. You might be knowing the dates of completion of various compositions given in that. Then why the doubt?

Your first part of the statement is absolutely correct and I agree with you. We also know that who wrote SGGS and the way it is written,, nothing can be added or taken out from it, but unfortunately, the second part is concocted. No one knows who wrote the so called Dasam Granth and that is the fact no matter how good a used car salesman you try to be.Once you have given the proof that Dasam Granth is written and put together by our 10th Guru, then we can discuss it further and the proof should come from the author, no one else. I am sure you know that.

That shows your attitude of insult towrads bani of tenth master. You are being uncivilized when you call it so called dasam granth. I hope you show some sensitivity towards a scripture whose banis sikhs( except a few heretics) follow.

Let me take a practical step. You live quite close to me. My friend has three digitised copies of Dasam Granth manuscripts with him in northern california. Come and see those. Accept the offer if you are a Gursikh.

Inder ji, It is your who claim that the Ardaas is written by our 10th Guru. And as it is your claim, then it is your duty to share with us what it says and if it compliments Gurmat values prescribed in the SGGS, our only Guru, hence our benchmark. I am looking forward to reading your interpretation, NOT literal translation copied and pasted from the internet. As mentioned before whatever you claim you must have studied a lot about it. Once again, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt

I have cited plenty of evidence that says .Dasam granth was part of sikh psyche and was placed alongside SGGS in Gurmattas. Is it not enough? Since you cast aspersions on this it is your job to show us the evidence from sikh history with refrence. I am not asking for the moon. I am asking what you are supposed to furnish whenou make an accustaion contrary to sikh history and traditions.

I do not know if these people mentioned in the above news are the members of this forum. So your response has nothing to do with the people interacting with you here in this thread. Please stick to the conversation with the people here, otherwise the post becomes nothing but ranting through which no one can learn about Gurmat values and its ideals. So let us only address the people here.

I gave the facts about Inder ghagha who instigated to change ardas. You asked for proof. I gave you proof. Did it not satisfy you. If not i can post the video evidence here that shows him in discussion with some singhs in toronto where he was caught for passing stupid remarks against Guru Nanak dev ji and Guru arjan dev ji. Do you want that?

Is this the Sikhi way to demean others and call them ignorant because they are drivers? I am surprised at your attitude towards others. Is being a driver not a kirat prescribed by Guru Nanak? Can you please give us the list of kirats that you claim Guru Nanak gave us or is it your personal bias and discrimination which again is not a Sikhi way?

Tejwant ji, your heart seems to be very soft for those who resort to blasphemy and ridicule our Gurus. unfortunately that is not the case with me. I believe in couplet

Gur ki ninda sune na kaan

It seems from your posts and your accusations that you consider yourself superior to others where as Gurbani says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi". Do you believe and adhere to SGGS? If you did then you would not be biased.

It is your personal assumption. let us not focus on personalities

PS: Please post a refrence here from sikh history wherein it is stated that Ardas was anti gurmat? If you are not able to do that, please be bold enough for tendering an apology to sangat for misleading them.

 

[Inder singh]

Some people fabricate their own stories with a tendency to project Dasam Granth as a disputed Granth.
When asked to provide refrence from sikh history in support of their assertion they keep mum. The fact is they have nothing to cite against Dasam Granth that have been embedded in sikh psyche so deeply.

Below is a an edict from Akal takhat sahib terming such persons as mischievious elements. Akal takhat ask sikhs to reply these mischief mongers appropriately.

Akal Takhat Sahib Matta 2006

 

[Inder singh]

 

[jasi]

Wahe Guru Ji ka khalsa Wahe Guru Ji ki Fateh.


The problem is that we have collectivly ignored the fundamental teaching of Shri Guru Nanak Dev JI. Find out your self how close we are to hindus rituals which were totaly vanished by Guru Naak Dev Ji when he make us understand that we all come from one light and critisizes the cast system.

Just look arournd.Even Sikhi is divided into many branches led by different groups when still they are reading from the Gur Granth Sahib JI.

One Sikh temple which is Golden Tample, that is it. There was no need by thousands to follow some one as a GURU than Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Jaspi

Jaspi

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

My opinion is that Guru Gobind Singh did not include his Bani into Sri Guru Granth Sahib because the tone and purpose of the majority of His writings are different to the overall tone of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Sri Dasam Granth deals with many issues, not only spiritual. To include such writings into Sri Guru Granth Sahib would have changed the aesthetics of it.

Moreover, I have read that another reason why Guru Gobind Singh's Bani remains separate is that only the Bani of the previous Guru can be added by the present Guru. As there was no physical Guru after Guru Gobind Singh, His Bani could not be included.

At the end of the day, we are mere mortals and do not have the capability to fathom why Guru Gobind Singh Ji chose not to include His works into Sri Guru Granth. Only the Tenth Master Himself knows His this.

Historically, the role of Guru Gobind Singh's Bani has been well entrenched by the Khalsa Panth. This can be seen by established practice (various Nihang Dals, Damdami Taksal etc.) as well as some historical accounts.

May the book of the Tenth Master continue to have its rightful role in Sikhi, alongside our Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib. They complement eachother and after all 'Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani'.

Guru Piayario Jio,
Gurfateh.

In that one sentence underlined bold YOU have DESTROYED the entire history of the FIRST POTHI SAHIB..AAD GRANTH JI..

Our History tells us that the AAD GRANTH was SCRIBED by Bhai Gurdass Ji, under the DIRECT SUPERVISION of GURU ARJUN JI SAHIB. This AAD Granth/Pothi Sahib was PARKASH in Harmandir Sahib Amrtisar by GURU ARJUN JI Sahib and the First HUKMNAMA was taken by the First Granthi,..Baba Budha Ji.
The AAD GRANTH...CONTAINS the GURBANI of GURU ARJUN JI SAHIB....He HIMSELF wrote it..and INCLUDED IT...and Parakshed iT..and also SLEPT ON THE FLOOR beside the santokhia sroop at night.
The AAD GRANTH (Kartarpuri Bir) is the Granth that has ONLY the GURBANI of Guru Teg Bahadur Ji MISSING...and that GURBANI was later INCORPORATED by Guru Gobind Singh Ji into a New Bir called the Damdmai Bir of SGGS. Guru Teg bahdur Jis Gurbani was INSERTED at all the different places in the appropruate Raags all over the SGGS.

2. THE MOST SHABADS in SGGS are written by GURU ARJUN JI Sahib !! Second number is by Guru Nanak ji and LEAST number by Guru TEG BAHADUR JI.and this LEAST NUMBER of shabads were inserted by Guru Gobind Singh ji...and the reason is because Guru Ji was still writing Gurbani till his last days in DELHI.....so this task was left to GURU GOBIND SINGH JI. AS Guru Arjun Ji had COMPLETED writing his Gurbani..HE placed it all in the AAD GRANTH HIMSELF and DID NOT LEAVE THIS TASK TO THE NEXT GURU !!!!

THUS I FIND your assertion in the post above unsustainable by facts of sikh history and oral tradition. Guur Gobind Singh Ji had no intention of placing his own writings in the SGGS. He ahd plenty of time...but DIDNT.

3. Such "speculations" as you ahve brought forward about our GURUS ....writing Gurbani and leaving the task of compiling ti to other "successor Gurus" has also been made about the GURUS....GURU NANAK JI SAHIB. This entire fiction is created and sustained by the "pothis of Goindwaal" tall tale. The supporters of Goindwaal pothis claim that GURU NANAK JI sahib..never wrote his own Gurbani.. ( AND that Guur ANGAD JI had to ask around...enquire from faithful sikhs..one of which happens to be the entirely fictional Hindali creation... Bhai BALA...to Collect and collate Gurbani sung by Guru nanak ji and "recorded" by these sikhs !!....or didnt pass on His Gurbani Pothis to Guru Angad Ji...and hence these Gurbani Pothis fell into the hands of Baba Mohan ji..who had to be "praised and cajoled by sweet talk" by Guru Arjun ji sahib to get his hands on the GURBANI of the PREVIOUS GURUS.

This "lobby" also mistranslates the MOHAN TERE ...SHABADS of GURU ARJUN JI written in SOLE GLORY of AKAL PURAKH into "sweet talking" of Baba mohan..a mere human albeit son of Guru Amardass Ji. Even a cursory reading of the Shabads can show that the "MOHAN" addressed to by Guru Ji CANNOT be any human....and it has to be the CREATOR....

This entire story about Bhai bala and all...is meant to strike at the very roots of AUTHENTICITY of GURBANI......and it was a REAL THREAT..hence the decisiion by GURU ARJUN JI to produce the AAD GRANTH and settle this problem once and for all time )
Recent research has shown that the Bhai bala "Janamsakhi" was probably written around the time of Guur Hargobind Ji or even LATER...by the HINDALIS...who were also into the act of WRITING FICTIONAL "gurbani" under the Labels..Mehla CHHEVAAN, SATVAAN etcas they cleimed to be the real Gurus of Sikhs after Guru Arjun Jis martyrdom. The Bhai bala janamsakhi was "created" to portray Bab hindal as greater than Guru nanak ji !!!

Lets be more careful about our HISTORY....

Chardeekalla Jios...

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Bani Guru..Guru hai bani..
was written by GURU AMARDASS JI..at the time when PRETENDERS to the Gurgadee were gathering strength...and beginning to spread "fictional gurbani"....as ORGINAL...and spreading rumours that "sikhs" had been compiling and collating gurbani shabads sung by Guru nanak ji...
Guur Amardass ji faced considerable oppostion from the osn of Guru Angad Ji...and so on...
The FACT was that GURU NANAK JI passed on His own Gurbani Pothi to Guru Angad Ji....and Guru Angad Ji passed on His own and Guru nanak jis poth to Guru Amardass ji....and so on. The "GURBANI" was the REAL SIGN OF GURGADEE....and FINAL ACT of SHOWING.....GURU HAI BANI was performed by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI in 1708 when he BOWED and passed on His THRONE to SGGS. The CHAIN of UNBROKEN COMMAND..starts with GURU NANAK-GURU ANGAD JI..and ENDS with GURU GOBIND SINGH JI.....as always... The SHABAD GURU of GURU NANAK JI....is the SAME one that GURU GOBIND JI bowed to....SGGS and NO OTHER. ONE...ONE...ONE ONLY EK OANGKAAR- SGGS as always.:ice::ice::ice:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have failed to answer to any of my questions in the post which is a shame. Interaction and Gurmat discussion can not happen by your repeating the same things again and again without any proof. Claiming something on your own like that is nothing but underestimating and disrespecting our 10th Guru.

When you are willing and able to respond to my queries and give the interpretation in your own words of the Ardaas that you claim without any proof that it was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji and also give the proof that Dasam Granth is written and named as such by our 10th Guru, then we can continue this discussion. Otherwise it becomes a futile tug of war of egos in which I declare myself a loser between us two.

Insults like "Accept the offer if you are a Gursikh", are nothing but bullying others in a Taliban mentality which Sikhi does not need and it shows sheer arrogance on your part. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows who is a Gursikh and which milestone he/she is at? You, I or no one else can ever find that out. So it is not only demeaning to Ik Ong Kaar by pretending to play Him but to the whole Sikh Panth.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Amarpal]

Dear Khalsa Ji,

I want to know who had compiled the text of Ardaas used in Gurdwaras controlled by SGPC.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh

 

[Inder singh]

Insults like "Accept the offer if you are a Gursikh", are nothing but bullying others in a Taliban mentality which Sikhi does not need and it shows sheer arrogance on your part. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows who is a Gursikh and which milestone he/she is at? You, I or no one else can ever find that out. So it is not only demeaning to Ik Ong Kaar by pretending to play Him but to the whole Sikh Panth.

I am surprised that you term it as an insult. It is an invitation and chance for you to see in person the Granth of tenth master. You will also be able to see his hand written pages in it, date of compilation and his signature. Why do not accept it. Only propagandists whose job is secure on festering this uncalled for controversey will not accept such a chance.

 

[Inder singh]

Dear Khalsa Ji,

I want to know who had compiled the text of Ardaas used in Gurdwaras controlled by SGPC.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh

Amarpal singh ji

The main ardas i.e. pauri in the beginning is from Chandi Di Vaar of Dasam granth. This ardas is prevalent from Guru Gobind singh's time. Later on Guru gobind singh's name was added to this in 1902. Also other additions were done later on.

The original ardas pauri is inscribed at the entrance gate of harmandir sahib at a time when gilding work was done during the rule of Maharaja Ranjit singh ji.