Anyone Have Any Unanswered Questions On Sikhi Or God?

[sukhsingh]

have you got any evidence to confirm your belief that God was not self created other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib where it is defined as 'saibhang': self created.

Sir I understand where you are coming from however no one can provide' evidence' either whether 'god' was self-created or not. We can say sggsj asserts 'akaal' etc is Saibhang but that is not proof, it's a assertion 'we' choose or find congruent to our experience, or rather a description which philosophically expresses a meta-physical truth. I believe it to be the truth but I can't prove it. Scientifically speaking I haven't found in my own 'khoj' anything anywhere that for me undermines the truth as expressed in mool mantar.. As someone who believes in testing ideas, expositions to find flaws in any given argument, the socratic method if you like. My belief in the truth expressed in mool mantar is as yet unchallenged. Which however does not mean that at some point in the future something may change that. However even if something did modify my opinion and undermine my belief it would not mean that it was not true only that my understanding had been modified and I would then have to test and try to disprove /undermine the belief which had superceded my current belief.

 

[sukhsingh]

Can you you clarify the above statement please, it intimates that God was not perfect at one point, is this the case?

To be fair @Sikhilove doesn't use the word perfect. To quote again " after much self contemplation and meditation, discovered himself to be Truth/Sat." truth can mean that something is both perfect and imperfect.. I do have a problem with how we always engender 'god' though

 

[Harry]

No it doesn't, again that's you using your worldly logic.

There is no worldly logic in Truth. Gurbani states that He sat for ages in the void in deep contemplation/ meditation. The Gurus followed in His footsteps of self discovery. They urge Us to do the same, that's why they taught the world.

Unfortunately, you are not a god, and neither am I, so we are stuck with the written word, which is directed at the sangat, who are also not gods, so kindly clarify the statement you have made, first that god is a he, second, that in discovering himself, god was at some point not complete, as if you have things to discover, you are not complete, nor perfect.

Kindly comment, thank you

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

Sir I understand where you are coming from however no one can provide' evidence' either whether 'god' was self-created or not. We can say sggsj asserts 'akaal' etc is Saibhang but that is not proof, it's a assertion 'we' choose or find congruent to our experience, or rather a description which philosophically expresses a meta-physical truth. I believe it to be the truth but I can't prove it. Scientifically speaking I haven't found in my own 'khoj' anything anywhere that for me undermines the truth as expressed in mool mantar.. As someone who believes in testing ideas, expositions to find flaws in any given argument, the socratic method if you like. My belief in the truth expressed in mool mantar is as yet unchallenged. Which however does not mean that at some point in the future something may change that. However even if something did modify my opinion and undermine my belief it would not mean that it was not true only that my understanding had been modified and I would then have to test and try to disprove /undermine the belief which had superceded my current belief.

You are mixing two things: religion and science; they are not the same, they have different base and basis to work upon. Religion has faith as the based which is developed based on the teachings of the guide, the Guru. Science is based on observations and practicals where some beliefs are put to experimentation to prove the facts. Sikhism is the faith developed by the Sikh on the teachings of the Guru; the teachings of ten Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Sahib which are not put to question by the followers; since they are based on on universal truths. The results of experiments may be true or not only time tells. Most of the theories and the experiments are found to be undergoing continuous change;hence scientific truths cannot be said to be the permanent truths. Theories on forces, energies, atoms, light etc are continuously changing through new experiments. Theory of origin too have been continuously changing but the statement in Guru Nanak's hymn 'Arbad Narbad Dhundhukara', is proving more close to every new experimentation.

 

[chazSingh]

Unfortunately, you are not a god, and neither am I, so we are stuck with the written word, which is directed at the sangat, who are also not gods, so kindly clarify the statement you have made, first that god is a he, second, that in discovering himself, god was at some point not complete, as if you have things to discover, you are not complete, nor perfect.

Kindly comment, thank you

i know what you're getting at but i think this is a lot deeper than just the words perfect and complete...

we cannot just say 'perfect' and then say it is a contradiction if God has to 'contemplate or discover'
If God is infinite...the discoveries are endless...right? how can you put a limit/boundary/ or an end to something infinite? but God can still be perfect right?

SGGS Ji continupously says, God is alone...if God is alone...then there is no 'other'...
He created and He enjoys the creation i.e. participates in it...

He is alone...he wanted to share it somehow...and the only way possible was to become part of it, whilst also being beyond it..

How can he trick himself into thinking there is another when there is only one? by Ego of the mind...to difine another character, a body, (me, you, the lolipop lady) lol

To let the Ego evolve and harden, so much so, that He loses all connection to himself...He sits on Forums questioning whether He exists...lol....hence this current age...

So how can He pull himself out...when he's in too deep?

By listening to his voice...shabad guru...in deep meditation...
as the ego dissolves...bit by bit...we realize we are just the one...perfect, yet made endless discoveries across the way amazing...wah!

 

[Sikhilove]

Unfortunately, you are not a god, and neither am I, so we are stuck with the written word, which is directed at the sangat, who are also not gods, so kindly clarify the statement you have made, first that god is a he, second, that in discovering himself, god was at some point not complete, as if you have things to discover, you are not complete, nor perfect.

Kindly comment, thank you

Lol, weve been through this before, to do so again would be wasting precious time.

 

[Sikhilove]

i know what you're getting at but i think this is a lot deeper than just the words perfect and complete...

we cannot just say 'perfect' and then say it is a contradiction if God has to 'contemplate or discover'
If God is infinite...the discoveries are endless...right? how can you put a limit/boundary/ or an end to something infinite? but God can still be perfect right?

SGGS Ji continupously says, God is alone...if God is alone...then there is no 'other'...
He created and He enjoys the creation i.e. participates in it...

He is alone...he wanted to share it somehow...and the only way possible was to become part of it, whilst also being beyond it..

How can he trick himself into thinking there is another when there is only one? by Ego of the mind...to difine another character, a body, (me, you, the lolipop lady) lol

To let the Ego evolve and harden, so much so, that He loses all connection to himself...He sits on Forums questioning whether He exists...lol....hence this current age...

So how can He pull himself out...when he's in too deep?

By listening to his voice...shabad guru...in deep meditation...
as the ego dissolves...bit by bit...we realize we are just the one...perfect, yet made endless discoveries across the way amazing...wah!

Ahh, your post gave me so much Sehaj. Finally someone who gets it, God Bless you!

I'd add that although were all one, we also have different souls connected to the supreme soul. Although He was the first Truth Knower. Beyond Logic and so stunning.

 

[Harry]

I

Lol, weve been through this before, to do so again would be wasting precious time.

no problem, just post me a link where you provided the answer last time, I must have missed it, apologies

 

[Harry]

we cannot just say 'perfect' and then say it is a contradiction if God has to 'contemplate or discover'
If God is infinite...the discoveries are endless...right? how can you put a limit/boundary/ or an end to something infinite? but God can still be perfect right?

your saying therefore that God is still learning, as infinity is just that, infinite, rather than finite. Is God evolving? My own personal opinion is that God knows everything, always did, always will, if God is evolving, why have not the major religions had an upgrade over the years? Why is there not a religion 1.03, why is there not a Sikhism new release 1.02? What God would learn and evolve and then not share the details? Does this mean Hinduism, being an old religion, is out of date?

Surely God can transcend space and time, so learning itself is a moot subject, as is waiting, God therefore would have to be finite, ie, finished, complete, rather than infinite

 

[chazSingh]

your saying therefore that God is still learning, as infinity is just that, infinite, rather than finite. Is God evolving? My own personal opinion is that God knows everything, always did, always will, if God is evolving, why have not the major religions had an upgrade over the years? Why is there not a religion 1.03, why is there not a Sikhism new release 1.02? What God would learn and evolve and then not share the details? Does this mean Hinduism, being an old religion, is out of date?

Surely God can transcend space and time, so learning itself is a moot subject, as is waiting, God therefore would have to be finite, ie, finished, complete, rather than infinite

is He still learning...i don't know...
We (me and You) would usually learn in knowledge and facts...

but we also learn in emotions....or something beyond that.....love...this is also learning..
and can we ever say, love has a definitive boundary...where we say that "ah i know what love is...this is it...this is its limits...and this is all it is"...


no we can't....it's just expressed and we fall deeper and deeper into it...endless...
not the fake stuff...someone loving their wife, then she cheats...and he stops loving her...

unconditional love...

Maybe it's Love...through all these experiences through creation...me and you...(little god particles, sat behind an ego)...we are learning about love...unconditional love...

i don't know dude ....this kind of stuff makes my ego mind hurt...because i can't really understand it..

so i sit and meditate and feel it at a very deep level...in the heart...but i always feel like i'm skimming the surface...always like there is more...and more...and more..

i guess i'm not making much sense...which is also not a bad thing...

 

[Harry]

is He still learning...i don't know...
We (me and You) would usually learn in knowledge and facts...

but we also learn in emotions....or something beyond that.....love...this is also learning..
and can we ever say, love has a definitive boundary...where we say that "ah i know what love is...this is it...this is its limits...and this is all it is"...


no we can't....it's just expressed and we fall deeper and deeper into it...endless...
not the fake stuff...someone loving their wife, then she cheats...and he stops loving her...

unconditional love...

Maybe it's Love...through all these experiences through creation...me and you...(little god particles, sat behind an ego)...we are learning about love...unconditional love...

i don't know dude ....this kind of stuff makes my ego mind hurt...because i can't really understand it..

so i sit and meditate and feel it at a very deep level...in the heart...but i always feel like i'm skimming the surface...always like there is more...and more...and more..

i guess i'm not making much sense...which is also not a bad thing...

No your making perfect sense, you are a man in love, in love with the supreme, not many around like you, I respect you a lot for that, the thing that you are in love with is impossible to articulate, impossible to communicate. Reincarnation, the DG, eating meat, rituals, traditions, to you, they are irrelevant, is merely the love for the supreme that drives you.

So the question as to whether God is finite or infinite is perhaps irrelevant to you, so I will ask you in a language that may resonate with you, is the force, the power that you love so much complete? Is it finite? If you could take a good hard look at this power within you, and share with us your feelings, I think it would help hugely, but only if directed at the question in hand.

 

[chazSingh]

All I have learnt so far is that...we can not understand this force in 4 dimensional space alone. Therefore through study...talk..language...we will forever remain lost...we can only use this as a medium to inspire each other with

The moment you're pulled within..physics...distance...time...nothing makes sense anymore...and nothing can really be made sense of...you just have to go with the flow...

If I said to you everything...the whole universe and beyond is within your body...could you or me understand that...? Scientists will laugh at you...space explorers will laugh at you...it doesn't make sense...it's crazy.......but it's true...lol

Therefore there are no limits...just contentment...

 

[sukhsingh]

All I have learnt so far is that...we can not understand this force in 4 dimensional space alone. Therefore through study...talk..language...we will forever remain lost...we can only use this as a medium to inspire each other with

The moment you're pulled within..physics...distance...time...nothing makes sense anymore...and nothing can really be made sense of...you just have to go with the flow...

If I said to you everything...the whole universe and beyond is within your body...could you or me understand that...? Scientists will laugh at you...space explorers will laugh at you...it doesn't make sense...it's crazy.......but it's true...lol

Therefore there are no limits...just contentment...

There is no way for a human to know everything we can only aspire to learn and seek out the truth. I'm not even sure if contentment is a good ideal to pursue. Finding balance is desirable but contentment is worthless if it selfish and self gratifying. It is that contradiction that motivates me to want to be a better person even though I feel I'm not doing a very good job of it

 

[chazSingh]

There is no way for a human to know everything we can only aspire to learn and seek out the truth. I'm not even sure if contentment is a good ideal to pursue. Finding balance is desirable but contentment is worthless if it selfish and self gratifying. It is that contradiction that motivates me to want to be a better person even though I feel I'm not doing a very good job of it

I.ve never understood contentment to be selfish or self gratifying...so maybe we differ in what we think it is.

The river has a current...we can fight against the current or use a lot of energy to get ahead of it also...but sometimes it's better to flow along with it...become one with the current...contentment...
So I guess we are in a constant flow of going against this current or trying rushing ahead...and then boooom! you feel the 'force' ... the 'current'...and become one with it...and then be content...there's no better state to be in?

What's to seek anymore...when you 'become'. Maybe that's what Harry ji means by 'complete...'

God 'is' ... so is complete...but has the power to create...therefore infinite...and also beyond co-ordinates therefore no beginning and no end...

Cool stuff

 

[Harry]

can something be complete and infinite?
Although we cannot understand God, with respect, we do know a few things about God, mainly what is stated in Mool Mantra, so there is some information to go on, the question is, is God complete? is God still learning? its an important question in my view.Given that in the Sikh view God always was, I cannot see how God can be infinite, as the infinite is still growing changing, and will never reach the finite. God, in Sikhism, in my view, cannot be anything other than perfect in every way, time, learning, growing and changing would all be irrelevant to such.

I am disappointed that the member that introduced the idea that has got us all debating is absent from the debate, debate is not a win or lose situation, in my view it is the road to further understanding, it is not a war.

 

[chazSingh]

can something be complete and infinite?
Although we cannot understand God, with respect, we do know a few things about God, mainly what is stated in Mool Mantra, so there is some information to go on, the question is, is God complete? is God still learning? its an important question in my view.Given that in the Sikh view God always was, I cannot see how God can be infinite, as the infinite is still growing changing, and will never reach the finite. God, in Sikhism, in my view, cannot be anything other than perfect in every way, time, learning, growing and changing would all be irrelevant to such.

I am disappointed that the member that introduced the idea that has got us all debating is absent from the debate, debate is not a win or lose situation, in my view it is the road to further understanding, it is not a war.

God is Complete because he 'is' ... he was in the beginning (when time began), is now, and forever will be...
But before creation...he was alone....he still is...but through creation, He is experiencing himself, his creative power and everything else from another viewpoint (we are the viewpoints)

If i am a computer programmer...creating the game is one thing....but imagine if i could really become the character(s) in the game...get so lost in the character(s) that i believe the 'game' is all that there is...i forget who i am...the programmer...

What if before i went into the Game, and became part of it..that i needed some way of pulling me out if i get in tooooo deeeeep! lol... hence i programmed in various characters to come and talk of 'the programmer' .... 'jesus' 'buddha' etc etc...The Guru...the Guru being the way to help me detach from the Game and woooosh, i realise i am the programmer... lol

Waheguru's Game (Creation) however is vast, unlimited...endless...dimensions, realms...
and i feel Waheguru has done this to learn more about Himself than he was able to whilst in deep contemplation on Himself...Endless other viewpoints (me and you) wondering through creation...but ultimately...returning back home....through Simran (remembrance)

If you're alone, whats the point of having this power to create if you are still alone? no one to share it with...
But what if you can create other viewpoints (through Ego)...lol...other viewpoints to marvel at the creation and think "Wah' "wah" each viewpoint having unique experiences of the creation...endless infinite experiences...

God is still complete...but Wow, Endless experiences of Himself, through himself...via me, you and my cat!...(the characters in the Game)...endless creations, endless everything...no boundary to what can be created and perceived...each individual character pushing forward that creative power...and that's why it's so important we clean our minds...because the direction is being created by Us...

I'm just letting out how i'm currently thinking and feeling..nothing else
 
Being the Character is not enough now...i would really like to uncover the truth....i hope i do...before the character ends...

 

[Harry]

I'm just letting out how i'm currently thinking and feeling..nothing else

and its great to read, its a great opinion, for in the debate, all we have are our opinions, opinions should not be dissected, there is much there I could, but I won't, as its your opinion, and you have not stated it as solid fact.

my only comment would be I don't think God would get lonely, but then again, maybe he did,

clearly the thought that god is still learning and sharing is not unique, thank you

 

[chazSingh]

and its great to read, its a great opinion, for in the debate, all we have are our opinions, opinions should not be dissected, there is much there I could, but I won't, as its your opinion, and you have not stated it as solid fact.

my only comment would be I don't think God would get lonely, but then again, maybe he did,

clearly the thought that god is still learning and sharing is not unique, thank you

And its important we contemplate these things...as i feel it's part of the process of pulling away just enough from our attachment to creation to look in the other direction...(within)...

Contemplation helps us stop...from our robotic lives...and for short moment just 'wonder'...it's a powerful tool...

 

[Sikhilove]

is He still learning...i don't know...
We (me and You) would usually learn in knowledge and facts...

but we also learn in emotions....or something beyond that.....love...this is also learning..
and can we ever say, love has a definitive boundary...where we say that "ah i know what love is...this is it...this is its limits...and this is all it is"...


no we can't....it's just expressed and we fall deeper and deeper into it...endless...
not the fake stuff...someone loving their wife, then she cheats...and he stops loving her...

unconditional love...

Maybe it's Love...through all these experiences through creation...me and you...(little god particles, sat behind an ego)...we are learning about love...unconditional love...

i don't know dude ....this kind of stuff makes my ego mind hurt...because i can't really understand it..

so i sit and meditate and feel it at a very deep level...in the heart...but i always feel like i'm skimming the surface...always like there is more...and more...and more..

i guess i'm not making much sense...which is also not a bad thing...

You're making perfect sense. The discoveries are never ending. It's all True Unconditional Love.

 

[Sikhilove]

can something be complete and infinite?
Although we cannot understand God, with respect, we do know a few things about God, mainly what is stated in Mool Mantra, so there is some information to go on, the question is, is God complete? is God still learning? its an important question in my view.Given that in the Sikh view God always was, I cannot see how God can be infinite, as the infinite is still growing changing, and will never reach the finite. God, in Sikhism, in my view, cannot be anything other than perfect in every way, time, learning, growing and changing would all be irrelevant to such.

I am disappointed that the member that introduced the idea that has got us all debating is absent from the debate, debate is not a win or lose situation, in my view it is the road to further understanding, it is not a war.

Apologies, I am currently overseas so I'm not here as regularly as I was. Chaz Ji is doing a pretty darn good job at explaining though, I don't really need to add much here.