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Any learned Sikhs out there?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by MKAUR1981, Jan 5, 2007.

  1. MKAUR1981

    MKAUR1981
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    WJKK WJKF

    My friend has just referred this to me.......and I am unfortunate manmukh that I cannot answer their question. Any help, so that I may learn something to defend my own releigion?

    Sikhism- a continuation of prophet hood? - LI Islamic Forum


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  3. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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  4. vaapaaraa

    vaapaaraa
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    I do not believe Guru Nanak Dev ji was a prophet.

    Guru Nanak Dev ji was the manifest form of God. Guru and God are one and the same, Guru Nanak Dev ji, God form, came to give the truth to all.

    Guru is formless in shabad word form (Guru Granth Sahib ji), so is God. Guru is that shabad which when absorbed in our consciousness, (the disciple of the Guru), becomes one with it.

    Muslims themselves have said that Prophet Mohammed was the last prophet of all.
     
  5. Hai_Bhi_Sach

    Hai_Bhi_Sach
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    naam jap ji, MKAUR1981 ji and Kaur-1 ji,

    Meet Prophet Muhammed on the following Link:

    Who was Mansoor Hallaj and What is his role in Islamic History? Discover the True Religion of Muslim - MANIFEST AND HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE, SAINT WORSHIP, Akhyaar (chosen), Abdaal (substitutes), Abraar (pious), Awtaad (pegs), Nuqabaa (watchmen), Qutb (pole

    He was eventually stoned to death by his own people. If any spirituality exists in Islam then it is Sufi Islam. Sufi Islam is a sect of group of people who did not believe in the teachings of Muhammed and went forth to find the truth for themselves. The were assisted in their path by Indian Seers who taught them that they need not change their religion to reach god, all they need to do is to change their thinking, the attitude towards God. Mansoor is Muhammed as he claims.

    So you see, Muhammed himself did not get anywhere with his own theory, What chance do these Muslims have. They are messed up by Mohammed.

    Another similar case is "Gita" the Holy book of the Hindus. "Gita" contains a private conversation between Sri Krishan ji and Arjun before the Mother of all Battles- "Mahabarat" Arjun and his pandav brothers after winning the battle eventually committed suicide in the mountains. Did he really understand the "Updesh" the conversation, the message Sri Krishan was trying to deliver. If he did then he would not have committed suicide in the mountains. Do these Hindus believe in it ? No, because they are still lost in the vedas. They have not digested the information.

    Sikhs again are lost. Some sikhs are now promoting The Dasam Granth to be equivalent to Sri Guru Granth Sahib. They have started doing Akhand Paths. Dassam granth contains the writings of Guru Gobind Singh ji as well as his 52 beloved poets. Since the writings of the poets are rythmically similar to Guru Gobind Singh ji, Out of respect and due to their inability of being able to differentiate poetry, they are keeping it together. It Guru ji wanted to give presidence to The Dasam Granth then Why was Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji given the final Gur Gaddhi. If they now put Dassam Granth in parallel to SGGS ji then is that any different to having a Sant Baba claiming his right there.

    This will certainly raise some issues! What is your opinion?
     
  6. vaapaaraa

    vaapaaraa
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    all I know is I dont want to be parted from bani of Guru Gobind Singh ji, it gives me that which all the pleasures in this world cannot give.

    It is filled with naam just naam, the rhyming lines words , in Jaap Sahib and akaal ustat are like rising scales of bliss, and so much bir raas.

    although i have realized this bliss can come through the grace of guru ji alone. one may read it but not get any bless, but once you taste the bliss in the bani, you will be in awe at the majestic beautiful composition.

    I also read one book on tapoban.org.. in it Bhai randhir ji was also saying to a person who was reading sukhmani sahib.. your reading good.. but you are not having the bliss...

    it is very true indeed this whole bani is amrit roop.
     
  7. sahilmakkar1983

    sahilmakkar1983
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    What I have read in SGGS is also that , it is praising SATNAM but SATNAM is not there

    it is saying for SATNAM we need a living GURU
     
  8. vaapaaraa

    vaapaaraa
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    Satnaam is there in bani, it becomes nectar form and you taste it in your mind, this can happen through grace of Guru ji. Love, Selfless service, do,act,think every moment that is aimed at pleasing the True Guru.

    The instructions are all there in gurbani, there is no need to look outside for any physical Guru.

    physical living Guru will leave this earth, who will be with you then? who is the eternal who is both beyond death and life ?
    Who is the one who is eternally God?

    God is formless, so is gurbani, Guru Nanak Ji has said, Guru is the Shabad, Guru Gobind Singh ji has said, our Guru is the shabad in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Aadi Anti Aykai Avtara Soei Guru Samjhiayo Hamara
    From the beginning to the end of the Time, there is only one being, who I recognise as my Guru. - Chaupai Sahib.
     
  9. sahilmakkar1983

    sahilmakkar1983
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    Ya true

    This thing is not written in Gurubani that we dont need a living master

    there are so many reference in Gurubani
    i will put it for u
    its telling WHAT IS CAPABILITY OF TRUE MASTER
    WHAT IS MASTER
    and WHY WE NEED IT

    first tell me, What is SATNAM
    Bani says

    ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥
    किरतम नाम कथे तेरे जिहबा ॥
    kirtam naam kathay tayray jihbaa.
    With my tongue I chant the Names given to You.

    ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ॥
    सति नामु तेरा परा पूरबला ॥
    sat naam tayraa paraa poorbalaa.
    'Sat Naam' is Your perfect, primal Name, can't be spoken
    ---
    This means that Name cant be chanted with Toungue, BUT WE CHANT SATNAM with TOUNGUE
    SATNAM IS UNSPOKEN WORD

    If this is case then tell me why dont we consider only GURU NANAK dev ji as our GURU, whenever Guru came, 10 gurus
    , Sikhs bowed there head.....
    They give the NAAM to Sikhs(Not give but , just make them realised, Name is always with in us, and because of that NAME our breath is working, that Power is definately name)

    The unspoken word

    Guru always come on the earth, because without Guru on earth, earth cant survive...

    Wating for ur reply
    I will put other things after ur reply
     
  10. Bijla Singh

    Bijla Singh
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    Satnam refers to True Name of Akal Purakh that has always existed and is pure truth. Satnam is Gurshabad which is Gurmantar. Bhai Gurdas Ji says "Kaljug Babay Tareya Satnam Parr Mantar Sunaeya". Only Shabad is the Guru not the 10 bodies. All ten Gurus were/are in fact One. Guru has always been one and will always be. Gurbani is the only true living Guru and there is no need for any human fake guru.
     
  11. sahilmakkar1983

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    In fact 10 Gurus were that name only,
    They were one , there is no doubt about it..
    But dear then why Gurubani is saying that SATNAM cant be spoken
    and gurubani is praising the SATGURU and telling what will happen when a true master comes to OUR life

    SANT SANG ANTAR PRABH DEETHA , NAAM PRABHU KA LAGE MEETHA

    these is what gurubani is saying..
    when SANT comes to our life he shows(DEETHA:dekhna) us the GOD(PRABH) within(ANTAR)
     
  12. Bijla Singh

    Bijla Singh
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    Word 'Satguru' is used for Waheguru and Guru Nanak Sahib only i.e. "Tu Satgur Chau(n) Juggee". No human being is praised in Gurbani.

    You are misinterpreting the panktee. SantSang is one word and since word "Sant" is plural it refers to congregation of holy saints where one gets darshan of Waheguru and attains muktee after meditating upon Gurmat Naam (obtained only from Satguru).

    Gurbani doesn't say Satnam is "unspoken". This is misinterpretation. Original Gurmukhi text doesn't have any word that translates to "unspoken".
     
  13. The Khalsa Fauj

    The Khalsa Fauj
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  14. vaapaaraa

    vaapaaraa
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    Where did you get the "can't be spoken" ?

    ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ॥
    सति नामु तेरा परा पूरबला ॥
    sat naam tayraa paraa poorbalaa.
    'Sat Naam' is Your perfect, primal Name.


    Though the True name cannot be described. It is beyond words. Just think about it. God is all of existence, we cannot even ponder on God, God is infinite, how can we ponder such a being? Guru Nanak in Jap ji when contemplating the greatness of existence, says the person surely finishes himself before writing the account of greatness, ant na ant. So how great do you think would such a being would be? and how much greater would his name be? "Gods name is higher then God himself" , "God is present in the rememberance of his name"

    By reciting Satnaam such a being is Remembered. Also, Continously reciting the name Satnaam, God's name originates in the mind, which cannot is indescribable.

    Naam is beyond words, but by reciting the Guru Given Mantra, you will experinece it.

    Jaap Sahib is filled with naam bliss
     
  15. sahilmakkar1983

    sahilmakkar1983
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    Dear very true
    that greatness of name cant be described..
    japji sahib, gurugranth sahib and all our granths(by 10 patshai's and all other scriptures)
    are singing the praise of name

    but dear

    I have highlighted ur quote in orange color , where u have written.." Naam is beyond words, but by reciting the Guru Given Mantra, you will experinece it.
    Jaap Sahib is filled with naam bliss"

    Name bliss is there in SGGS but name is not there

    as i told earlier also


    KIRTAM NAAM jape TERE JIBHA;;; means toungue only chants the KIRTAM(false) name , true(SAT) name(NAAM) cant be chanted with toungue..

    there are so many references in the GURUBANI .. that says AJAPA JAP to that name

    meaning of word SATNAM is TRUE-NAME .. but it is not that name.....
    because as per gurubani..
    . TRUE-NAME is unspoken......IT is not in language

    as told ,, NAME was there in past also will be in FUTURE also
    BUT LANGUAGE WILL CHANGE...
    ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ
    बावन अछर लोक त्रै सभु कछु इन ही माहि ॥
    baavan achhar lok tarai sabh kachh in hee maahi.
    Through these fifty-two letters, the three worlds and all things are described.

    ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
    ए अखर खिरि जाहिगे ओइ अखर इन महि नाहि ॥१॥
    ay akhar khir jaahigay o-ay akhar in meh naahi. ||1||
    These letters shall perish; they cannot describe the Imperishable Lord. ||1||


    MEANS::LANGUAGE will change in future.....52 words of sanskrit will destroy in future
    but as we know that NAME is LORD and that NAME of LORD is not in LANGUAGE
    Sanskrit changed to HINDI,
    ENGLISH came

    but that SATNAM(true name) that is one that can be chanted by EACH N EVERY one
    whether he is hindi, english or punjabi

    Gurufateh
     
    #15 sahilmakkar1983, Jan 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  16. sahilmakkar1983

    sahilmakkar1983
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    GuruFateh,

    Ya its true, that SGGS is singing the praises of SATNAM
    but it also says that SATNAM is not SATNAM but SATNAM is unspoken(AJAPA) word
    ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਘਰੁ ਦੇਖਾਇ ਦੇਇ ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥
    घर महि घरु देखाइ देइ सो सतिगुरु पुरखु सुजाणु ॥
    ghar meh ghar daykhaa-ay day-ay so satgur purakh sujaan.
    The True Guru is the All-knowing Primal Being; He shows us our true home within the home of the self.

    ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਧੁਨਿਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਤਹ ਬਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥
    पंच सबद धुनिकार धुनि तह बाजै सबदु नीसाणु ॥
    panch sabad Dhunikaar Dhun tah baajai sabad neesaan.
    The Panch Shabad, the Five Primal Sounds, resonate and resound within; the insignia of the Shabad is revealed there, vibrating gloriously.

    ਦੀਪ ਲੋਅ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਤਹ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਹੈਰਾਨੁ ॥
    दीप लोअ पाताल तह खंड मंडल हैरानु ॥
    deep lo-a paataal tah khand mandal hairaan.
    Worlds and realms, nether regions, solar systems and galaxies are wondrously revealed.

    ਤਾਰ ਘੋਰ ਬਾਜਿੰਤ੍ਰ ਤਹ ਸਾਚਿ ਤਖਤਿ ਸੁਲਤਾਨੁ ॥
    तार घोर बाजिंत्र तह साचि तखति सुलतानु ॥
    taar ghor baajintar tah saach takhat sultaan.
    The strings and the harps vibrate and resound; the true throne of the Lord is there.

    ਸੁਖਮਨ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਰਾਗੁ ਸੁਨਿ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
    सुखमन कै घरि रागु सुनि सुंनि मंडलि लिव लाइ ॥
    sukhman kai ghar raag sun sunn mandal liv laa-ay.
    Listen to the music of the home of the heart - sukhmani, peace of mind. Lovingly tune in to His state of celestial ecstasy.

    ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
    अकथ कथा बीचारीऐ मनसा मनहि समाइ ॥
    akath kathaa beechaaree-ai mansaa maneh samaa-ay.
    Contemplate the Unspoken Speech, and the desires of the mind are dissolved.


    ਉਲਟਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਭਰਿਆ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਕਤਹੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
    उलटि कमलु अम्रिति भरिआ इहु मनु कतहु न जाइ ॥
    ulat kamal amrit bhari-aa ih man katahu na jaa-ay.
    The heart-lotus is turned upside-down, and is filled with Ambrosial Nectar. This mind does not go out; it does not get distracted.

    ਅਜਪਾ ਜਾਪੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
    अजपा जापु न वीसरै आदि जुगादि समाइ ॥
    ajpaa jaap na veesrai aad jugaad samaa-ay.
    It does not forget the Chant which is chanted without chanting; it is immersed in the Primal Lord God of the ages.

    ਸਭਿ ਸਖੀਆ ਪੰਚੇ ਮਿਲੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸੁ ॥
    सभि सखीआ पंचे मिले गुरमुखि निज घरि वासु ॥
    sabh sakhee-aa panchay milay gurmukh nij ghar vaas.
    All the sister-companions are blessed with the five virtues. The Gurmukhs dwell in the home of the self deep within.

    ਸਬਦੁ ਖੋਜਿ ਇਹੁ ਘਰੁ ਲਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ॥੧॥
    सबदु खोजि इहु घरु लहै नानकु ता का दासु ॥१॥
    sabad khoj ih ghar lahai naanak taa kaa daas. ||1||
    Nanak is the slave of that one who seeks the Shabad and finds this home within. ||1||

    Please read the meaning of the lines
    clearly stating that the master , guru is that who can show u the GOD within u
    and ORANGE highlighted in b/w is clearly stating that NAAM is AJAPA
    SATNAM is AJAPA

    SVJKK SVJKF
     
  17. sahilmakkar1983

    sahilmakkar1983
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    WE NEED TO DISCUSS ITS MEANING NAAM_JAP VEER JI
     
  18. vaapaaraa

    vaapaaraa
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    ਸਬਦੇ ਹੀ ਨਾਉ ਊਪਜੈ ਸਬਦੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥
    sabday hee naa-o oopjai sabday mayl milaa-i-aa.
    Through the Shabad , naam wells up within us, Through the Shabad, we are united in union with God.


    this Shabad is the word of Guru, when you recite the shabad, understand it's meaning, absorb it, then through the Grace the naam wells up within you.

    Reciting Satnaam, the true naam wells up within you. From Satnaam , Satnaam originates.

    Sat Naam is the only permanent place, It is name of the eternal one, all other names of beings, place come and go. But the Name of the eternal Lord is the only name that is true and support of all. With true faith, Understand this name as true, eternal, and remember recite it. Then the naam, will well up within you through Guru's Grace



    ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
    akath kathaa beechaaree-ai mansaa maneh samaa-ay.

    the katha of infinte God, it cannot be told, when you do contemplate this infinity through the shabad, slowly you will absorb the qualities of God, and through his grace, you will be absorbed in the only one there is. In Jap ji, it is written, if one tries to write an account, he will surely finish himself, before he finishes writing the account. ant na ant.

    When you are absorbed in God, your desires disappear.
     
  19. Hai_Bhi_Sach

    Hai_Bhi_Sach
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    naap jap ji,

    "Gallein yog na hoye"
     
  20. Bijla Singh

    Bijla Singh
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    Kirtam refers to man made names not false names. No single word in the Shabad translates to "can't be spoken" or "unspoken" and I don't know why you keep ignoring the facts and misinterpreting Gurbani. Word "Poorbla" means a name that has existed since Aad which is Gurshabad or Gurmantar.

    Ajapa Jaap refers to continuous chanting of Naam i.e. doing naam abhiyaas 24/7. Highly spiritual gursikhs get to a certain level where the chanting goes on inside their heart and body even when they are sleeping. Tongue stops but naam simran goes on inside non-stop. That's when each and every "rom" in the body chants Naam. This is called Ajapa Jaap. English translation is wrong and unapproved and relying on it is a big mistake.
     

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