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Amrit For Women - Different - Why

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Gyani Jarnail Singh, Dec 13, 2004.

  1. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH.

    TWO TYPES OF AMRIT - TRUE or FALSE - Please read on




    Sikhism is like a school. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the principal and the only teacher in this school.

    Though anyone can take free lessons from the Holy Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the certified students learn more quickly, because they are the regular students. The regular students attend their classes. They take daily lessons.

    Every school has an admission system. Most of the schools publish an admission form. If someone wants to get admission, he has to fill up the form and submit it in the office. He has to appear in an interview. The interviewer asks some question and if he is satisfied, he admits the interviewee into his school.

    The school of Sikhism has its own procedure of admission. If someone wants to get admission into this school, he/she has to follow the procedure. He/she will have to appear for an interview. The 'Panj Piyare' (five beloved ones) are the interviewers in this school. The seeker of admissioin appears before them. They ask him/her some questions. If they are satisfied, they tell the rules of the school. If the seeker is ready to follow the rules, he/she can get the admission. But the procedure of admission is not completed yet.

    The five beloved ones prepare the 'Amrit', the nectar. This nectar is prepared and distributed to the seeker in a ceremony, which is called 'Amrit Sanchar'. The nectar is prepared in an iron bowl. The five beloved ones sit around it. Clean water and sweet puffs are put in the iron bowl. The five beloved ones recite the Gurbani (Jap ji, Jaap sahib, Swayyas, Chaupayee and anand Sahib) one by one and keep stirring the water with a 'khanda' (double-edged sword). This is the Sikh baptism.

    Because this nectar is prepared using the 'khanda', so it is called 'Khande Da Amrit' (the nectar of double-edged sword). It is also called 'Khande Dee Pahul', 'Pahul Khandedhaar' and 'Khandedhaar Pahul'. This 'Khande Da Amrit' is distributed to every man and woman, who wants to get the admission into the Holy school of Sikhism, who wants to be the Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.



    BUT what is the Maryada at takhat hazoor sahib ?? There we have a different AMRIT for women....

    When some people visit Takht Sri Hazoor Sahib, they find that the women are baptized by the kirpan (sword) instead of 'khanda' during 'Amrit Sanchar'. While baptizing the women, only Jap Ji Sahib, few stanzas from Jaap Sahib, and six stanzas from Anand Sahib is read. Only one beloved one (Panj Piyara) prepares the Amrit. This Amrit is called 'Kirpan Da Amrit'.

    Here, I want to make it clear that there are two types of 'Kirpan Da Amrit'. One is distributed to the women undergoing baptism. Other is distributed to newborn baby. The 'Kirpan Da Amrit' given to newborn baby is not considered a baptism. It is given so that the parents can eat with their babies in a same utensil. It is considered a religious ritual.

    The giving of 'Kirpan Da Amrit' to newborn is a very old tradition in some Gursikh Families. An Amritdhari person recites Sri Jap Ji Sahib and prepares the nectar in an iron bowl with a sword. (Some people recite only first five stanzas of Sri Jap Ji Sahib). Then he put some drops of it into the mouth of newborn using the sword as a spoon. My dad, the late Gyani Darbara Singh Ji daler of Tallewal Bhatinda himself prepared 'Kirpan Da Amrit', when I was born. I was given 'Kirpan Da Amrit' by my dad himself. It is an old tradition in GURSIKH families and still kept alive. I do not find anything wrong in this tradition...in fact it should be ENCOURAGED.

    Distributing this Amrit to newborn is not the baptism. When the child grows, it has to take 'Khande Da Amrit'. I was given 'Kirpan Da Amrit' when I was born, but later I was baptized through 'Khande Da Amrit'.

    Now, let us discuss about the 'Kirpan Da Amrit' as a baptism for the women.

    AT Takhat hazoor sahib Deccan, the women are baptized by a single PYARA ..not FIVE as in Amrit Sanchaar. He prepares the nectar using a small sword. Though, it is said that Jap Ji, few stanzas from Jaap Sahib, and six stanzas from Anand Sahib is read while preparing 'Kirpan Da Amrit'; it is possible that only the Jap Ji Sahib is read practically.

    The people want to know what is its history. They want to know what is the logic behind it to baptize the women by kirpan instead of khanda.

    I think that the book 'Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh' represents the views of the people, who support 'Kirpan Da Amrit' for women.

    'Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh' is written by Singh Sahib Joginder Singh ji, the then Jathedar of Takht Sachkhand Abichal Nagar Hazoor Sahib (He died some years ago). It was written and published in 1967. I used its first edition while giving references.

    In this book, the topic 'Kirpan Da Amrit Maayeeyaan Noon' (the nectar of sword for women) has been discussed (from page 235 to page 246).

    Singh Sahib Joginder Singh ji has given a reference to a book 'Khalsa Dharam Shashtar'. Singh Sahib Joginder Singh wrote that according to 'Khalsa Dharam Shashtar', it is an old tradition to distribute 'Kirpan Da Amrit' to the woman.



    At the beginning, only 'Charan Pahul' (the water, which is used to wash the feet of Guru) was allowed for women. But some Amritdhari men do not eat the food, which is cooked by non-Amritdhari, so it was thought that women should be distributed 'Kirpan Da Amrit'. The other reason given in the book is that without 'Kirpan Da Amrit', the women cannot get useful ideas to help their warrior husbands. This was the reason to distribute 'Kirpan Da Amrit' to the women.

    Actually, the writer of 'Khalsa Dharam Shashtar' is trying to say that even 'Kirpan Da Amrit' was not allowed for the women. The 'Charan Pahul' was the valid baptism for them.

    The writer did not tell that if 'Charan Pahul' was the valid baptism for the women, then who started the 'Kirpan Da Amrit'. He did not tell whether eating the food, which is cooked only by an Amritdhari, is based on the Gurbani or not. He did not tell whether such Amritdhari persons take the medicines prepared by non-Amritdhari people or not.

    It is the accepted fact that after March 30, 1699 A.D., when 'Khalsa Panth' was created, Guru Gobind Singh did not give anyone his 'Charan Pahul'. 'Khande Da Amrit' was a substitute for the 'Charan Pahul'. How was it possible that the women were still being baptized through 'Charan Pahul'? If someone still persists, he should tell that whose 'feet' were being washed to prepare 'Charan Pahul' after Guru Gobind Singh left his physical body.

    So, it is wrong to say that 'Charan Pahul' was a valid baptism even after the creation of Khalsa Panth or after 1708 A.D. (when Guru Gobind Singh left his physical body).

    According to the writer of 'Khalsa Dharam Shashtar', it is the God's will that there is difference in physical structure of men and women. There is difference in gents-jewellery and ladies-jewellery. There is difference in their activities, like the birth of child etc. So, there is difference in men's nectar and women's nectar.

    I think this is not less than a joke. The Amrit is not jewellery. It has to do nothing with physical structure. The Amrit is a necessity to get admission into the School of Guru.

    If oxygen is needed for physical body, the Amrit is needed for spiritual body. We cannot live physically without oxygen; we cannot live spiritually without the amrit. The physical body needs the water; the spiritual body needs the amrit. It does not make any difference if one has not any jewellery.

    The differences in physical structure do not make much difference. The men and the women take birth in a same way. Both of them die in a same way. Both of them fall ill in a same way. Both of them laugh in a same way. Both of them weep in a same way. Why is there a different way to prepare the Amrit?

    Notice that Bhagat kabir has already asked this same question of the Brahmin..: "O Brahmin, if you are so "different" from me, why did you use the same way as me to enter this world...WHY ddint you use a DIFFERENT WAY to be born ??" To me it looks as if just as the Brahmin was trying to porteay himself as "different" from the low castes.. here we have "amrtidharee men" trying to show they are 'different" from "non-amrtidharees", and worse.."amritdharee men" trying to show they are "different" from "amritdharee women".. IF Bhagat kabir were alive today he would ask the SAME question of these Amrtidharees' attitudes towards their wives/daughters.

    The men and the women drink the same water. Both of them use the same air to breath. Both of them eat the same food. Both of them take the same medicine when they fall ill. Why do they need different Amrits (nectars)?

    The writer says that the Amritdhari men keep the 'Khanda and Kirpan' on their heads. He says that the 'Khanda' and the 'Kirpan' is a pair, as a male and a female are a couple. I think the writer is talking about the 'Khanda Kirpan', which is like a badge.

    Here I want to say that all the Amritdhari men do not keep 'Khanda and Kirpan' (a kind of badge) on their turbans. Secondly, there are not only 'Khanda' and 'Kirpan' in that badge, but there is also a 'Chakar' (a round shaped weapon). If the 'Khanda' represents a male and 'Kirpan' represents a female, then what about the 'Chakar'? Whom does the 'Chakar' represent? And also, there are two swords in that badge. Does it mean a male should have two females? A 'Khanda' and two swords do not make a pair. And there is a 'Chakar' also.

    The writer has given a reference to 'Rahatnama Bhayee Chaupa Singh Ji. In reply to this, I would like to say that the 'Rahatnamas' are not the Gurbani. There are many things in the 'Rahatnamas', which cannot be accepted. Interestingly, S. Kartar Singh Khalsa, Jatha Bhindran (Mehta) quoted Bhayee Chaupa Singh differently, "Jo Sikh, Sikhani Noo Khande Dee Pahul Na Deve, So Tankhahiya" (The Sikh, who does not give 'Khande Dee Pahul' to Sikhani (Sikh-woman), is a culprit). (See: 'Khalsa Jeevan and Gurmat Rahat Maryada' written by Sant Kartar Singh Khalsa, Jatha Bhindran (Mehta), page 180, edition 1977). Thus, there is adulteration in the 'Rahatnama'.

    The writer says sarcastically that he, who supports 'Khande Da Amrit' to women, should pray before the God to transform a woman into a man.

    There is no need to pray for such a transformation. It is the God's own will that some are men and some are women. He has the power to transform the women into men and the men into women. The Gurbani says, "Naaree Te Jo Purakh Karaavai, Purakhan Te Jo Naaree. Kaho Kabeer Saadhoo Ko Pritam, Tis Moorat Balehaaree" (He, the God, who transforms the woman into a man and the men into women, says Kabeer, is beloved of the Saints. I am a sacrifice to His image). (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 1252).

    There is another ridiculous argument against 'Khande Da Amrit' to women. The writers says that if a woman remains a woman, remains a wife and becomes pregnant as usual even after taking 'Khande Da Amrit', then what is the use of 'Khande Da Amrit'.

    A man remains a man and a woman remains a woman even after taking 'Khande Da Amrit'. If 'Khande Da Amrit' does not transform a male into a woman, then how can someone expect a woman to be transformed into a man?

    If we follow the Gurbani, 'Khande Da Amrit' can transform us into angels without any delay, "Balehaaree Gur Aapne, Diohaarhee Sad Vaar. Jin Maanas Te Devte Keeye, Karat Naa Laagee Vaar" (I am a sacrifice to my Guru a hundred times a day, who made angels out of human beings, and it was done without any delay). (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 462).

    In 1967 A.D., the Deputy Jathedar of Takhat Sri Hazoor Sahib demanded that the women should be distributed 'Khande Da Amrit'. A meeting of the high priests (Granthis) and some members of management was arranged. But they failed to arrive at any agreement.. The same old maryada continues...



    Question: Will you allow the woman, who tasted 'Khande Da Amrit', to bow their head right before the door (of 'Angeethha Sahib')? NO.

    Why not? What is the problem to let her do so?

    Question: Will you allow the woman (who tasted 'Khande Da Amrit') to take 'Hukamnama' from Sri Guru Granth Sahib within the railing of the Holy Takht Sahib? NO

    Why not? What is the problem to let her do so?

    Question: Can a woman, who tasted 'Khande Da Amrit', take 'Karhaah Prasaad' distributed for 'the five beloved ones'? NO

    Why not? What is the problem to let her do so?

    Question: Can a woman, who tasted 'Khande Da Amrit', take part in 'Amrit Sanchar' as one of the five beloved ones? NO

    Why not? What is the problem to let her do so?

    Even in Punjab, some people are against the participation of women in 'Amrit Sanchar'. I read in a magazine published by a self-styled saint, which said that according to 'Rahatnama', the five Singhs (Amritdhari males) are allowed to distribute the nectar. The magazine gave a reference of a 'Rahatnama', which says, "Paanch Singh Amrit Jo Devai. Taa Ko Chhakk Sir Dhar Pun Levai" (The nectar, which is given by the five Singhs, one should taste and then put it on head).

    The word 'Singh' (literary means lion) is used both for the Amritdhari men and women. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib, we see this line, "Singh Ruchai Sad Bhojan Maas" (The lion is always interested in meat). (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 1180). If lion wants to eat meat, the lioness too has the same desire. Thus, here the word 'singh' has been used both for the lion and the lioness. In the Gurbani, the masculine word 'Sikh' has been used both for man and woman. Actually, there is only one man in this world. All other are the women. "Is Jag Maih Purakh Ek Hai, Hor Sagalee Naar Sabaayee" (In this world, there is one Man; all other beings are women. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 591).

    Question: The women are not allowed to prepare the holy food for 'Bhog' at Takht Sahib. Will you allow a woman, who tasted 'Khande Da Amrit', to prepare the food? NO

    Why not? What is the problem to let her do so?

    Question: Can a woman, who tasted 'Khande Da Amrit', take part in 'Guru Kee Bauli Kee Sewa' (the service of step-well of Guru)? (There is a historic step-well at Sri Hazoor Sahib). NO

    Why not? What is the problem to let her do so?

    Question: Can a woman, who tasted 'Khande Da Amrit', take part in 'Gaagar Dee Sewa' (service of metallic pitcher)? (Amritdhari men bring water in metallic pitchers from the river Godavari, for washing the Takht Sahib). NO

    Why not? What is the problem to let her do so?

    Question: Will you allow a woman, who tasted 'Khande Da Amrit', to do the 'Chaur Dee Sewa' (to wave the holy whisk)? NO

    Why not? What is the problem to let her do so?

    Question: Can a woman, who tasted 'Khande Da Amrit', take part in the holy procession as one of the five beloved ones? NO

    Why not? What is the problem to let her do so?

    Singh Sahib Joginder Singh has criticized the SGPC, Akali Dal, Bhasaurees (Panch Khalsa Diwan, Bhasaur) and Bhai Randhir Singh's group. He wrote that all these organizations are against the 'Raagmala'. He wrote that 'Bhasaurees' were against the 'Bhagatbani'.

    I think the SGPC is not the 'Panth' itself. It is an organization, whose members are elected by the Punjabi Sikhs only. There are other organizations too, like the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, which take care of the Sikh places. The SGPC has no representation of Sikhs Worldwide - it is a reality that SIKHS now reside in USA/Canada/UK/Europe/Malysia/Singapore/Australia/New Zealand/ and a few hundred other countries.Secondly, the 'Raagmala' is read everywhere except Sri Akal Takht..and that also was changed by jathedar Jasbir Singh Rode in 1985/86 or thereabouts.

    Akali Dal is a political party. This party has non-Sikh members too. Badal has made the Akali dal into a Punjabi party vide constitutional changes...so it is no more a SIKH Party and therefore cannot decide on Sikh religious matters. It is reality that the badal "punjabi party" is the one that controls the SGPC and the members of the sgpc come from Badal's party.Furthermore Now, there are many Akali Dals. A political party has nothing to do with a religious matter.

    Bhai Randhir Singh organized 'Akhand Keertani Jatha'. Most of the members of this Group do not read the 'Raagmala'. Others accept it as Gurbani. Bhai Randhir Singh was once a member of 'Panch Khalsa Diwan, Bhasaur'. But He has not written any article against the 'Bhagatbani' and 'Raagmala' .Even if he was against the Raagmala, it has nothing to do with 'Kirpan Da Amrit'. These are TWO SEPARATE issues alltogether.... any attempt to "link" them together is malafide intentions... that is trying to "bring abroad" supporters of raagmala to support kirpan da amrit for women...and vice versa. The issue of amrti has nothing whatsoever to do with Raagmaala.

    The 'Panch Khalsa Diwan, Bhasaur' is now lying in its tomb...but every now and then some "die hard" PKD supporters will wake up from slumber and raise some issues dear to PKD...but it doesnt make any impact...



    we can safely conclude that there should not be a separate 'Kirpan Da Amrit' for the women. 'Khande Da Amrit' is the only accepted baptism in Sikhism.

    Jarnail Singh
     
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  3. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    Just to add athing
    Recently I was reading book by Sant Niranjan singhji ( Mystics Reflection...)
    In the book he replied to the question of including women as punj pyare in amrit sanchaar as follows

    The women has not availled their right to do so when Gurur Gobind ji asked for the five head so how can they now ask for same right .

    Actually I was not satisfied with the answer what do you think about it Jarnail Singh ji
     
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  4. vijaydeep Singh

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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    Gurfateh Parwan Ho!

    Das knows the writer of article of which Gyani Sahib Ji have done the critical analysis.Das respect the writer personally due to the good personal relation

    But one thing is correct.das realy respect and appriciate the Logic of Gyani Sahib Ji also.

    If possible Das will try to bring writer to this forum to answer the correct points raises by Gyani Sahib JI.

    Das realy Thank Gyani Sahib Ji for sharing the views with us.

    Akal bless you and you be keep on giving such views in future too.
     
  5. Arvind

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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    That is a great seva, Vijaydeep Singh ji. Do it sooner please, so that a healthy discussion can take place which puts forward different perspectives.

    Regards.
     
  6. drkhalsa

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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    Dear Singh ji

    In thi scontext what does this verse mean and imply
    Peevo Pahul Khande Dhaar hoye janam Suhela
    ( bhai Gurdas ji)

    Does this mean only men are entitled for janam suhela and women are not as mentione dmy amrit ji that women should take Kirpan the amrit and not Khandey da amrit
     
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.

    I thank Veer Vijaydeep ji's suggestion. Veer Amrtipal Singh Amrit:rofl!!: is a very distinguished writer - I have visited his website - www.amritworld.com and he has brought forward some very progressive ideas...especially on almost " forgotten' personalities like Pandit Hardyaal..one of the first to have Darshan of Guru nanak Ji. I for one would be glad to have such a distinguished one among us.

    jarnail Singh
     
  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    Waheguru Ji aka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

    imho nothing of the sort is implied veer ji....no gender is mentioned at all. This is a "genral message to ALL. We will notice that the words KHALSA/SIKH are gender free. In the verse above even these words are not mentioned...it is avery general exhortation to ALL to drink the Amrit of the Khanda batta and certainly "WOMEN" SIKHS are just as " cordially invited" as "MEN" SIKHS.

    On a Second off side note this man who wrote this "41st Vaar, under the name of "Bhai Gurdass" and ADDED his one sole vaar to the 40 Vaars of BHAI GURDASS JI is an "imposter" of post Guru Gobind Singh Ji while the "ORIGINAL" Bhai Gurdass Ji was Guru Arjun Sahib Jee's Mama ji, and scribed the original GURU GRANTH JI. Only later on did most people begin to "see" the difference..and what a big difference it is..the second Bhai gurdass Ji's sole vaar is blatantly Anti Muslim in many places it is genrally not recited ( in one pankti he asserts it is the SOLE purpose of Guru Gobind Singh ji and the Khalsa is to DESTROY MUSLIMS and mosques and STOP Circumciisons...) which we know is nonsense. This Peevoh Pahul Khnadedhaar is a pankti from this second Bhai gurdass Ji's vaar...

    I hope this clarifies matters a bit more

    Jarnail Singh
     
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.

    The "RIGHT" or "PRIVILEGE" to Amrit is NOT conditional on any gender, race,colour,height,colour of eyes, hair, weight, location of residence etc etc etc.
    Out of a crowd of nearly 80,000 Guru Ji asked for and got 5 heads..GURU JI NEVER asked for a SIXTH HEAD.

    Now "IF" we are to deny women - effectively 50% of SIKHS, the right to AMRIT just because no woman got up to answer Guru Ji's initial call..well then NO American got up either, no UK resident was even there, no Canadian even bothered to attend, NO Chinese, NO Malaysian, NO South Indian tamil, Bengali, kannada, Burman, Thai, Cambdian...etc etc etc etc....so ALL of us are OUT of the race to become Amrtidharee.

    AMRIT would be given ONLY to the FIVE....and NO ONE ELSE.....and "purists" would probbaly want your name to be "Daya" Dharam etc and you MUST come from Lahore/ etc etc REGIONS ONLY...and maybe YOU MUST be of the SAME HEIGHT/WEIGHT/hair colour/etc etc of the original Five...which is patently ridiculous.

    I dont subscribe to the theory some hold that just because "SANT JI" said so it must be correct. imho ONLY GURU is ABHULL..everyone else is BHULLANHAAR. Guur Ji gave us the intellect and budhi to think for ourselves.

    A "NATION" that disfrenchises 50% of its population...especially the MOTHER HALF/WIFE HALF/DAUGHTER HALF is asking for trouble because a child in its formative years is moulded by his mother, in his best years a man is comforted and accompanied by his wife..we just cannot afford the luxury of "keeping out" HALF our population. a "non-Amrtidharee" mother/wife is a serious drawback !!!

    And GURBANI backs up this viewpoint..GURU NANAK JI so forcefully explained the VITAL IMPORTANCE of "WOMAN" in our life...in "Bhaand Jameeiah..Bhaand..." that no body can be left with any doubt as to what Guru Ji means....GURU JI placed woman at the pinnacle SHE DESERVES when He writes: "So ko manda akhiyeah jit jammeh rajaan..WHY condemn woman when she gives birth to KINGS ?? ( and SANTS too !! .......I may add )

    Jarnail Singh
     
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  10. drkhalsa

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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    dear Jarnail Singh ji


    Thanks for your whole wider view of teh situation ,it always help me ( thinking at wider view angle) . And I agree fully with you that for a sikh nothing stands in between Akaal Purakh and sikh and the only sole guide is GURU GRANTH SAHIB and for sure there is no place for sant or dera baba ji And hope every body ( sikh ) can understand this

    Jatinder Singh
     
  11. ranjit singh jit

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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    The original article is written by our beloved veer ji bhai sahib amritpal singh amrit. You can visit his site www.amritworld.com . Same article has been added on our website: - http://www.sikhismguide.com/article2.html . I could not understand that why Arshi Giani ji did not tell the readers that this article is originally written by bhai sahib amritpal singh amrit.

    I think the original writer has made his all points very clear. If anyone has still any question, he can write to amritpal singh amrit ji, or as vijaydeep singh ji suggested, amrit ji should be requested to come here on this forum.

    ranjit singh jit
    www.sikhismguide.com
     
  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh.

    My sincere apologies to amritipal singh and yes i did visit his site as i do visit thousands of sites daily in my quest for knowledge. in fact i am still visiting it as it has lots of interesting materials and so do my students...and we regulalry discuss those points we see as interesting...

    That said this is a subject of SIKH REHAT MARYADA VS Takaht Hazoor Sahib maryada and it is common material for every Sikh. I ADDED on and COMMENTED on points raised and I put this up here because this is a DISCUSSION BOARD so that others can DISCUSS. The points were to me NOT that CLEAR and thats why I added my critical analysis....and that substantially changes the article.

    Anyway we are all Gursikhs and if anybody is offended i sincerely apologise again.

    jarnail Singh
     
  13. devinesanative

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    Re: Amrit ?? For Women ?? Different ?? Why ??

    Ask Sant Niranjan Singh Ji , If He is ready to take off his head to justify the above line .

    If you go by his logic then only those five should have the right , rest all others should have no right .
     
  14. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Dear Ds

    Incidently Niranjan Singh is no more he passed away few year back

    But he was dedicated kathakar and all his life satarting from teen age has done this till his death

    But I believe that no matter how good yiu are there is always a room of improvement so me this was for Niranjan Singh


    I agree with your assertion and Gyani Garnail Singhji also said the same kind of thing


    Jatinder Singh
     
  15. lionprinceuk

    lionprinceuk
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    Just happened to stumble upon this thread through Googling, and the thing is, Khanda and Kirpaan have genders too, one is masculine and one is feminine!
     
  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Batta is Masculine..WATER is Masculine..Sugar is Feminine..so its all a MIXTURE of Male adn female..why not the FIVE too ?? eh ??
     
  17. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    So you mean to say that men should carry Kirpan and women should carry Khanda only? Or vice versa?
     
  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Incidentally too much stress on tradition..prampara etc is OUT as far as GURMATT is concerned. Guur Nanak ji threw all such into the dustbin as Garbage...GYAAN..MERIT...HONESTY..all came to the forefront. Baba Sri Chand coulnt simply inherit the Gurgadee simply due to his genetics/lineage etc...as was the Tradition/Prampara etc...Guru nanak ji rejected the janeau..so discarded it immediately even if there was already a large crowd of villagers, local dignitaries, family, pandits brahmins etc gathered for the ceremony...and Food such as a Bakra was already slaughtered and cooked to be served..GURU JI SAID "NO" and its FINAL. No such thing as we hear today..AApeh wadda ho keh sikh jaoogah..thorree der vikhaveh vasteh hee paa ley...when he gets older he will undertsand..just wear it for a while for our sake...etc etc types of lame duck excuses people dish out to make their children comply with their rituals etc..example wear a puggh for the Laavan...carry a kirpan for the laavan...dont drink for a while so as to be sober for Lavaan etc etc..dont shave off the chin until time for the Dinner/Bhangra....all PAKHANDS. I ma sure Guru jis time also a lot of such "pakhand" advise would ahve flowed freely..bapu dee laaj raakh lah..just wear the janeu for now..take it off later if you still dont like it..blah blah blah. GURMATT has no place for such pramparas and meritless rituals.
    SO no prampara/tradition applies to the FIVE....neither PLACE...nor TIME..nor the Five's individual characteristics/race/religion/etc. The ORIGINAL PLACE was ANANDPUR SAHIB..The Date and Time was Vasakh 1st 1699.. Amrit Vela.the WATER came form the SUTLEJ, the FIVE who answered the CALL came from various castes, places all over INDIA..from as near as LAHORE and as Distant as Chhattisgarh ORISSA !! WHEN we can so easily DISPENSE WITH all the "Traditional" in the above...why keep on harping on the LONE issue of GENDER of the ORIGINAL FIVE ??
     
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  19. dushanka

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    it's very simple ....

    Sikhism has been created to make the people equal... women and men ... especially because of the discrimination by the caste systen and any other classicism ...
    So if if any differences between genders come out in Sikhism , those are wrong ....

    In Sikhism there should not be made any differences except those which have been made by the nature . A man has been tought to be a warrior and if we remember well also women / girls have been tought the same ... if both are given the same right by Guru Nanak -Ji then why do we people create differences ? which use of Sikhism if we create same rules as other religions ??? What is the difference between Sikhism and hindus , muslims etc.. etc... if we do not accept the equality which is given to all of us by the Gurus???:swordfight-kudiyan:swordfight:whatzpointkudi:
     
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  20. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    There are genders given to everything. This is the way many languages work including French, Italian,Spanish, Japanese, Punjabi and many more. The English language does NOT, this is what makes it difficult for english speaking to learn a 2nd language, whereas other languages have more ease with learning english in general.

    When I was learning French, I found it easier to not getting my le's and la's etc.. . mixed up by thinking of the object/subject in punjabi..using this method I found the genders were mostly the same!!!! It certainly saved me from a lot of learning of genders that others had to learn from scratch as the english language doesn't use them.

    Gyani Jarnail ji mentioned no difference between Thaal and Thaali in another thread. The only difference is the gender assigned when using them in a sentence.
    With the Thaal and Thaali, I assume that the size mentioned in context is different, similar to 'chamcha becomes karshi' masculine to feminine. Bhati becomes Bhataa and so on.
    BUT, the gender assigned to use in language is NOT specific for males or females. A man can wear a jharaab(sock and masculine) just as a woman. A man can drink amrit(masculine) so can a woman.
     
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  21. Ishna

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    A related question: What is the purpose of kirpan da amrit for babies? Could an adult new to Sikhi seek kirpan da amrit if they're not ready for khande di pahul? If so, what would their rehat be?

    Was/is there a separate rehat for women who have received kirpan da amrit?
     

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