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Amrit and Maryada

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by manbir, Sep 5, 2005.

  1. manbir

    manbir India
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    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI Fateh

    I wish to bring my friends' attention to ritualistic way to life that we Sikhs have developed which is directly against the preaching of our Gurus. We have created so many Maryadas to meet our needs and and as per our own understanding and given it a label that it has been blessed by our gurus. We call ourselves Amritdharis if we go through some ritual created by us. By going though this ritual we declare ourselves as superior human beings. We least care to search our soul to findout the Amrit inside us. Isn't it a fact that the Amrit our Guru wants us to take is different from the one in maryada !! Isn't it a fact that the Amritdhari of our Maryadas is a different person from the one in Gurbani !
    Lets think with clear mind and open heart. Let only Gurubani be our guide. Everything else is nothing but aadambar.
     
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    #1 manbir, Sep 5, 2005
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    The Khande batte De Pahul is not a Man made maryada....it was introduced by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI at Vasakhi 1699.

    1. This Pahul ceremony is so IMPORTANT that even the GURU is not exempted. GURU GOBIND RAI JI took this Pahul and became GURU GOBIND SINGH JI....and was called Waho Waho gobind Singh Aapeh GUR...aapeh GUR-CHELA.

    2. WHAT a person "thinks" has got nothing to do with maryada/pahul/gurbani etc.
    IF we blame the Pahul Ceremony for some "amrtidharees" thinking they are better than others... What is there to stop a "Gurbani reading person" from thinking he is way better than you or me ?? SO shall we all then STOP reading GURBANI ??

    3. This "propoganda" AGAINST the Khande Batte De pahul/Amrtidharees is spread by the people who DONT WANT the restrictions of...KESH/KANGHA/KIRPAAN/KACHERRA/KARRA. So they calim they are Sikhs of the NINE GURUS, and want to pay attention to GURBANI only. This is a FALSE ASSUMPTION becasue GURBANI from GURU NANAK JI sahib onwards contains ample evidence of the FIVE K's as IMPORTANT fro Gurmatt and Sikhee.

    Guur nanak ji decared..Je to prem khelan ka chao sir dhar tali gali mere aou... and GURU GOBIND SINGH JI at vasakhi 1699 DEMONSTRATED just THAT by asking for FIVE HEADS on a Platter. The TRUTH is that ALL TEN GURUS are the SAME JYOT....no one can be a Sikh of Guru nanak Ji IF he DISOWNS GURU GOBIND SINGH JI. That would be like saying .."I am my grandfathers grandson..BUT not MY Father's SON "

    Jarnail Singh
     
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    #2 Gyani Jarnail Singh, Sep 14, 2005
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  4. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all!

    Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote many wonderful Baanees. Did He also write about Vasakhi 1699 and the ceremony of Panj Pyaras and receiving Amrit from them?

    I would appreciate an authentic reference from the historians.


    Balbir Singh
     
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI fateh.

    Veer Balbir Singh raises an intriguing question ...

    Guru nanak Ji Sahib also wrote a lot of Wonderful Banees....but I havent come across any Banee by Guru NanaK ji Sahib where Guru Ji writes about passing His Gurgadhee to Guru Angad Ji...and simialrly there is NO Gurbani by Guru Angad JI about Guru Amardass Ji, or Gurbani by Guur Amardass ji about Guur ramdass ji. Bhatt Swaiyahs do write about this gurgadhee passing but only up to Guur Arjun Ji.

    Not a single line of Gurbani exists about Gurgadhee given to Guur harGobind Ji, Guru Har rai Ji, Guru harKrishan Ji or Guru Teg bahadur Ji and Guru Gobind rai Ji ( later Guru Gobind Singh ji)

    How does the entire Sikh kaum refer to Guru GOBIND SINGH JI when He has not written any banee about changing His name from Gobind RAI to SINGH ??

    I think the answer is that GURBANI is ILAHI DHUR KI BANEE..about AKAL PURAKH and not about mundane things like who became Guru when and why ?? Therefore it is futile looking for such answers in GURBANI.

    The NAMDHAREES raise this type of OBJECTIONS to the passing of Gurgadhee to GURU GRANTH JI and GURU KHALSA PANTH...and ask for "references from GURBANI " ?? That is mainly becasue they want to establish their won line of dehdharee gurus...and DENY the Gurgadhee of Guur granth Ji.

    Jarnail Singh
     
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  6. drkhalsa

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    Dear Gyani ji

    Forgive me if am wrong but I think Balbir Singh ji is talking about Dasam Guru di Bani and not Guru Granth Sahib
     
  7. manbir

    manbir India
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    Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

    Balbir Singh Ji has raised a very important and interesting point. We should findout the origin of ceremony of Panj Pyaras and the 5 Kakars.

    Isn't it a fact that origin of Keshas as a form of dress code preeceds Vasakhi of 1699 ?
     
  8. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Das is intersted to know that where in Guru Granth Sahib Ji we are told to have 5Ks. Or say Turban.

    Well Sabat Surat Dastar Sira is something being told to Muslims Holymen that unbroken concentration should be speacl kind of turban on his head.

    It is rather apparnt ly anti to his wearing turban.

    likewise we have Khob Teri Pagri told sonewhere else in Adi Guru Granth sahib ji and Dwarka Nagri ben also told there.

    There perhaps Akal is been told in all and Dwarak of Akal is universe.

    And Pagri is glory.

    Khintha Kal Kuari Kaya Juagt Dandan Parteet of Guru Granth Sahib ji tell that inside of making Bhes or Attire we need to concentrate more on spritual persuits.

    Even similar things are writtan in Dasham Granth even in Akal Ustat it is writtan that by 'mere' keeping hairs we may not get Akal.

    So How do we get to know about Amrit Sanskar and are as per Guru Granth Sahib Ji are 5ks also rituals.

    In fact it is trai Mudra of Kachchh Kes Kirpan which was perhaps even before the world Khalsa.

    By the way word Khalsi or libration perhaps is used in Guru Granth Sahib Ji

    And we do not have term Wahi Guru Ji Ki Fateh
    in there.

    Due to so much saying on relying only on Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji only like we have Arya Samjis having Vedas only we see many of our young man cutting hairs and saying that holy Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not approve it.

    Coming back to Turban,Khalsa,5ks and similar matters.

    Vars of Bhai Gurdas 1st talk obout perhaps 6th Guru wearing Turban and Rattan singh Bhangu also talk of Tenth master removing caps and let turban replace it(Even at misl period Sukh Singh Miran Kotiya and Charhat Singh sukker chakiya wore Iron Helmet as battle gear) so Turban was a mark as transiton from cap wearing Saints(we have Seli(woven ) Topi(Cap) of one of our Guru in one of the Gurudwara.

    As Khalsa was made after the Guru Granth Sahib Ji so needless to say that if we say as per logical anti miralce missioanier point of view then Guru Granth Sahib Ji can not tell future or Miracle(al though we have instance where both forecate and miralces are writtan in guru Granth sahib ji but are attributeed to Akal).

    To Be continued..
     
  9. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Then it is simple that when we were to be made rulers we were given a dress code and new name.

    And power to fight for deprived.

    Raj Karega Khalsa is from Karni Nammah which is by First master but not in Guru Granth sahib Ji.

    Kes were been told to be kept to Bhai Mardana but Das is not aware of source but First Master did keep sword which was found from Oriisa and kept at Takhat Patna Sahib.

    Amrit or Pahul is mentioed in Mangal Prakash and Bijai Mukt Sakhi 10 both are called Sau Sakhis.

    Bhai Gurdas Second ie Kesar Singh s/0 Shaheed Baba Gurbax Singh Nihung of Damdami Taksal also talks about taking Pahul of Khanda or nector of sabre.

    Regarding trerm Khalsa it is in Sarbloh Granth.

    Once only it is found in the last part of Dasham Granth where Tenth Guru Talks of Khalsa's seeing him in Lakhi Forest like Bufflos see Grazeer.

    It is similar to Jesus being shepheard of followers.

    Then term Khalsa is used to describe Jagat Jot Jape Nis Basur.

    Rembers the alive light(Akal) day and night.

    There are Asphotak Kavyas ie poems which were loose or scattered and hap hazerdly perhaps compiled in last of Dasham Granth Sahib.

    Last of it is Sikhi Rahit in Farsi.

    It tells of Five Ks and 3hs to be forbiddan ie Huqqa,Hazamat and Halal.
    And then applying Henna is like blackening of face.

    If we go by Guru Granth sahib Ji then our making mere Sikhi form with 5ks is mere ritual or Admaber so is Amrit Sanskar.

    That is OK for house holder who is concerned to himself and his family or say fellow Satsangis(Congragaton) and in fact Gurmat by Tenth master was to elminate the division by forms of Yogis,hindus or Muslims.

    But that could have been obtained if all of them have same form which conceal racial or regiaonl variaton.

    So when ruler and aggressive class who was ploticaly arising to change the system of opppression by world was to be made so term Purely a worshipper of God ie Khalsa was used with 5ks and Turban marking the figthing ruler.

    In fact Das is yet tom see that where in Guru Granth sahib Ji taking Vak or serman of the day or other occaision is writtan or where does is it is writtan for Santookh or Praksah or chaur or PariKarma or Kirpan Bheta or even Matha Tekna to Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    So at the end Guru Granth Sahib Ji say that to reach the God we ned to have devotion and with cleverness of logic which itslef is illogical we can not have blessing of Guru.

    That makes Gurmat unique as only Logic is Vedanta and Gurmat becomes higher to Vedant by Devotion of the God which is similarly described by Vedanta.

    Gurmat is not Vedanta only due to devotion.

    And where we have devotion we have no questons.

    so like in military descipline we are told to carry out task withour questioning to bulit our leadership so leadeaders or Sirdars are made by uniform of self decipline which is 5ks and like in military it is here also does not ask for logic but motivation and spirit to follow.

    And Baptism is nothing but enlistment.


    Say we have instance of Rath or chariot in Guru Granth Sahib Ji that does not undermines the importance of Car at present so Khalsa was advance state of Sikhs at the times Gurus before Tenth Master.Wars of Sixth master were for self defence but Tenth Master did caried out advance and aggresive warfare like the War of Naduan or Seding Prince(SahibZada) to attack Hoshiyarpur.

    There is hardly the name of Tenth Guru in Guru Granth Sahib ji so should we deem that we had no Tenth Guru? Off course not.

    All Ten Gurus were the medium of guidance to hummanitiy by Akal in the form of word or Sabd.

    And as per Bani of Bahi Gurdas First Sikhs were Guru and Gurus were Sikh and we find the Bani of Bhatts,Baba Sunder Ji and Bhai Mardana Ji in Sri Gurgranth sahib ji and all were Ihlaam or Words of God sent to them.

    And we are not like Wahbis who could say that God can nver sent words after Holy Kuran if it is same for Guru Granth Sahib Ji then God Akal is not omnipotant which goes against the sprit of Gurmat where Akal is without any limitation.

    In fact at prsent in the form of Khalsa Singhs it keeps on guiding us.

    Explantion of of Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Prof Sahib singh Ji ,who was a Khalsa is also deed of Akal.
    Concluded.
     
  10. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!
    Veer Ji!

    Guru Gobind Singh Ji lived many years after the very historical Vasakhi 1699 too.

    He might have surely written about Vasakhi day, the Amrit Ceremony and receiving Gurmantar 'Vaheguru' from Panj Pyaras.

    Do you suggest that Sikhs should suppress their queries?


    Balbir Singh
     
  11. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Well as per research done by Budhadal people Guru wrote a full book called Sarbloh Granth after leaving Anandpur Sahib.

    Das could not get mention of Amrit Sanskar but few intersting things.

    Like

    Guru had five beloved four were his sons and Fifth is the Khalsa.

    Guru Has Twelwe forms

    Ten Gurus ,Guru Granth Sahib Ji andd Khalsa.

    Khalsa or Sikh even were having Triye Mudra of Kachchh Kes Kirpan.

    Das is yet to come accross Gurus own writing regarding Vaisakhi 1699.

    But yes recorded messages by Guru in Mangal Prakash or Sau Sakhi by Baba Gurbax Singh Ji Ram Kaur(from Baba Budha family) does talk of nector of Sabre or Khande Da Pahul.

    We need to rember that as per Sarbloh Granth Khalsa is not Tantric,Yogi etc.etc. but term of Khalsa is used in most of the writings of Guru(incluidng Lakhi Jungle episode) after he left Anandpur Sahib and there was very little time between the vaishaki 1699 and leaving Anandpur Sahib as only after breacking the caste(Sarboh Granth talks of Khalsa above or better than four Varnas or caste here) did Pahri hindu kings with instigation of Parmandand or Pamma Pandit called Mughuls to attack Guru.

    It is possible that self writtan record by Guru could have been drwaned in Sirsa river and Guru did not wated time to write it again as all were awre of this revulutionary event.

    Like passing over of Seat from Eight Master to Ninth Master by calling Baba Bakaley was recorded by others and not Guru not For Ninth to Tenth so from Tenth to Eleventh(Khalsa) was recorderd by Eleventh ie Khalsa only.
     
  12. drkhalsa

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    Dear Balbir ji


    I was wondering what you think about this thing ? do you know of any records about this ?
    if not then what do you think , why guru ji never recorded it??

    kindly reply

    Jatinder Singh
     
  13. ISDhillon

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    Satsriakal Ji,

    You cannot accept the gurgaddi of SGGS either because Guru Gobind Singh Ji never wrote that down either so to all those who keep saying that khalsa is man made where is your proof that adi granth ever was given the title of guru?

    Personally I accept the path as given and do not judge those who are not baptised but I am a serious protester to those who start to question sikhism because in their own reality it just does not fit into their lifestyle so it must ultimately not fit into anyone elses lifestyle, reality is not the same for all of us everyone has their own sikhi path and should follow it and learn their own way and not criticise others because you dont know their reality so cannot comment.

    Indy
     
  14. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    das repeats that in Sarbloh Granth Guru tells of 12 Guru's form

    10 Gurus and Guru Panth and Guru Granth.
     
  15. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    ABSOLUTELY and 110% CORRECT.

    Example..Guru Arjun Ji ddint record his shahedee...neither did any other Sikh historian...even Bhai Gurdass didnt mention it. So can we say Guru Ji was NOT martyred ??

    Simialr to why Guru Ji didnt write about Vasakhi 1699, or Khande Batte De Pahul and Khalsa Formation... where did the KHALSA come from and why does Guru Ji write Khalsa mera roop hai KHAS...

    This type of idle speculation leads NOT to scholarship but the DEVIL's WORKSHOP...

    Sikhs have 10 "Gurus" in Physical human Form BUT ONE JYOT of NANAK ONLY, Guru Granth Ji in "written Form" and Guru Khalsa Panth in KHALSA FORM...are the Present GURU JI forever and forever. NOTHING else besides. Jarnail Singh
     
  16. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Jatinder Singh Ji!

    I feel our Gurus recorded all what was necessary. It took decades after Guru Gobind Singh Ji that some opportunists and business minded people started writing about Sikhism further.

    --------------

    Dear I.S. Dhillon Ji!

    Truth cannot be challenged and proved an untruth. Our Gurus and their Banis are Truth.

    The query raised here is about what our Gurus never authenticated.

    Should we get awakened or feel shaky for our failures and wrong preachers?

    Perhaps we feel criticized for our shortcomings.

    Gurbani is ever great as Truth about Paramaatmaa.

    --------------

    Dear Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!

    A Sikh practices the Sikhi whole long life. One day he finds that the values he was holding tightly were never mentioned by our Gurus. He will surely try to find the DEVIL who injected the mischief.

    I would say not to waste rest of human life in finding the Devil.

    The purpose of life is to merge in Truth.

    The spiritual catalyst is true Simran.

    Love.


    Balbir Singh
     
  17. ISDhillon

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    "The query raised here is about what our Gurus never authenticated"

    The gurus seal or authentication is a living testament of sikhs today that is the only proof that it all happened, I do not feel shaky in the slightest.

    Indy
     
  18. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and ISDhillon Ji!

    You wrote "The gurus seal or authentication is a living testament of sikhs today that is the only proof that it all happened"

    Please elaborate this. What is the living testament of Sikhs today that is the only proof? And what all happened?

    I will be grateful.


    Balbir Singh
     
  19. ISDhillon

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    Satsriakal Balbir Singh Ji,


    "What is the living testament of Sikhs today that is the only proof? And what all happened?"

    originally in your earlier post you aked for why the guru did not authenticate the khalsa, the amrit ceremony is passed through the generations and it is the guru panth today which is living proof of that historical event being authentic, we do not need to have it written down, a community is the collective living testament to sikhism. We should focus on living sikhism and stop anylysing every part of sikhism because if we are true to the ideals of our faith then the guru must be honoured as being present today in the granth and the panth, however we do not see the guru in this way because iff we did then why was their never such indepth analysis when the guru was in bodily roop, it is simple we live in a society which asks a reason for everything and therefore we have become victims and the bad effect of this is that we fail to honour the guru today as we did 300 years ago. Guru can give gyan which can aid the world but instead we question the guru instead of surrendering to the guru.

    Indy
     
  20. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and ISDhillon JI!

    You wrote " . . . a community is the collective living testament to sikhism."

    In my view, One does not learn Sikhi from others in a community. From the community one may learn imitating.

    One becomes A Sikh by receiving NAAM from the Satguru. His whole existence starts evolving toward God.

    You have written about faith and information provided by the community. The whole Maya is germinating this way.

    There is a difference between learning (getting informed) from outside and learning to recognize God's Will and his

    Wisdom from within.

    The true Guru does not give us information about Truth. The true Guru merges us with God's Wisdom and enjoys singing

    Truth with us.

    The true experience of Truth shatters all kind of faith, belief and presumptions.

    A preacher blames the mistrust among learners.

    The true Guru wipes out the mistrust among learners (Sikhs).

    Love.


    Balbir Singh
     
  21. ISDhillon

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    With respect Balbir Ji,

    Your last post has nothing to do with the authenticating seal of amrit and maryada, the true guru does wipe out distrust, I have no distrust about amrit and maryada if you do have some queries do tell and I will see if I can help out, again the guru panth is a living testament to the historical truth that 1699 did happen, the satsangat is not a place where we learn by copying but a place to support and share learning collectively, there is no other guru apart from the guru panth and guru granth, if their is do tell. Rehat and temporal order are not fixed, the guru made changes and that is what khalsa is supposed to represent ie, continuity and change, distrust arises solely because we do not realise that temporal order can be changed with changing circumstances, however the initiation and symbols are fixed.

    Love,

    Indy
     

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