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Amar Daas brought the Lord under His control

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Santokh Singh1989, Mar 9, 2010.

  1. Santokh Singh1989

    Santokh Singh1989
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    Sat Naam and greetings, I am having some trouble understanding some of this gurbani and would much appreciate the help understanding the true meaning. The passage I'm having trouble with is.

    ਗੁਰਿ ਅਮਰਦਾਸਿ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਕੀਅਉ ਵਸਿ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਇਯਉ
    गुरि अमरदासि करतारु कीअउ वसि वाहु वाहु करि ध्याइयउ ॥
    Gur Amarḏās karṯār kī▫a▫o vas vāhu vāhu kar ḏẖeā▫i▫ya▫o.
    Guru Amar Daas brought the Creator Lord under His control. Waaho! Waaho! Meditate on Him!


    What does "Brought the Creator Lord under His control" Mean? I know what I think it means but that would go against what I believe the Gurus taught (how could a man control God) so I am assuming there is a misunderstanding in translation or I am understanding it incorrectly. Someone please help me to understand.

    Also. From pages 1406 to 1409 There are what seems to be hyms from poets named Ball, Keerat, Kal Sahaar, Harbans and Mat'hura. Who were these poets? When I look up the lists of bhagats who wrote in GGS their names never appear. It is from some of the hyms from Mat'hura were it talks about God being incarnated through the Gurus. There is actually another thread that I am reading on here that discusses thows passages so I wont get into them to much here. But I am curious as to the meaning of the passage I posted above and to any knowledge of who these poets were and why I can't find anything about them and if there are others outside of the 15 usually listed bhagats and the ones i listed, that others might know of that I don't..

    Thank you for your help. WJKK WJKF
     
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    #1 Santokh Singh1989, Mar 9, 2010
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Santokh ji

    I am curious myself. It looks as if this passage came from the search engine at srigranth.org.

    So my next question would be: Is this the translation of Manmohan Singh or of Sant Singh MD.? I am going to take a look myself because I realize you found this in another thread. So how would you know the answer?

    For now -- the entire shabad is needed to know what the verse means. Since Guru Amar Das left Vedism to follow Sikhi, my first hypothesis is that he brought his own devotion and awareness of the Vedic creator Vishnu under the control of his new bhagati and awareness of the Satguru.


    My reason. After he says, Guru Amar Daas brought the Creator Lord under His control

    the next thing is Waho Waho Meditate on Him.
    But I will check for you.

    Added after checking the shabad.

    Now elaboration - This is very interesting. The shabad comes from the Savaya in praise of Guru Ram Das by the Bhat poet Bal. The bhats were Hindus who lived in the general region of the Indus river and were monotheist Hindus. Among them "Bal" wrote many hymns in praise of the 4th Nanak Ram Das. When Guru Arjan Dev (Nanak 4) included the bhats poetry/hymns in the Aad Granth, he was acknowledging their deep devotion, bhagati, to the one Creator Lord. That is the background for that one line.

    Now to the specifics, Here is part of the entire shabd which is very long from the Sawayay on ang 1405. Translation is by Sant Singh.

    <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੀ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਦੀਅਉ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">sathigur naanak bhagath karee eik man than man dhhan gobindh dheeao ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Nanak, the True Guru, worships God single-mindedly; He surrenders His body, mind and wealth to the Lord of the Universe.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">


    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਅੰਗਦਿ ਅਨੰਤ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਿਜ ਧਾਰੀ ਅਗਮ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਿ ਰਸਿ ਰਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਹੀਅਉ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">angadh ananth moorath nij dhhaaree agam gyaan ras rasyo heeao ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">The Infinite Lord enshrined His Own Image in Guru Angad. In His heart, He delights in the spiritual wisdom of the Unfathomable Lord.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">


    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਗੁਰਿ ਅਮਰਦਾਸਿ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਕੀਅਉ ਵਸਿ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਇਯਉ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">gur amaradhaas karathaar keeao vas vaahu vaahu kar dhhyaaeiyo ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Guru Amar Daas brought the Creator Lord under His control. Waaho! Waaho! Meditate on Him!
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">


    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਜਯੋ ਜਯ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਤੈ ਹਰਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਯਉ ॥੨॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">sree gur raamadhaas jayo jay jag mehi thai har param padh paaeiyo ||2||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">O Great and Supreme Guru Raam Daas, Your Victory resounds across the universe. You have attained the supreme status of the Lord. ||2||</td></tr></tbody></table>
    The poet Bal is building up to praise of Guru Raam Daas ji. He in the last line is saying that our 4th Guru has attained the jyote of the Satguru and is infused with his light ("You have attained the supreme status of the Lord"). Before that he builds from Nanak 1, who earlier attained the status of Satguru, because he worships the True God "single-mindedly." So here we see the acceptance of monotheism and complete bhagati. Then the poet praised Nanak 2, Guru Angad ji who has the Creator enshrined within.

    On to the line you asked about. Guru Amar Das ji, who (see my comments above) has left worship of Vishnu and has accepted bhagati of Waheguru the Creator Lord. Then finally he praises Guru Ram Das ji -- whom Bal considers the attainment of "supreme status of the Lord" or the jyote of the Satguru.
     
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  4. arshi

    arshi United Kingdom
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    <FONT color=purple><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=black>ਗੁਰਿ ਅਮਰਦਾਸਿ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਕੀਅਉ ਵਸਿ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਇਯਉ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਜਯੋ ਜਯ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਤੈ ਹਰਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਯਉ ੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ1405}<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><?"urn:[​IMG]) has captured the Lord in his heart (ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਕੀਅਉ ਵਸਿ) – i.e. Lord’s Parkash glowed within him (having eradicated houmai - ego).

    Note: Egoism and God cannot reside within, at the same time.

    It may also mean that God has taken Guru Ji under His Refuge – i.e. Guru Amar Das, the Lord has absorbed him within His Light (infused in His Light). Guru Ji meditated upon His Name and attained the highest spiritual status (Unification with the Lord).

    Enlightened members may yet shed more light on this.


    Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'
     
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    #3 arshi, Mar 9, 2010
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  5. spnadmin

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    '


    arshi ji


    Actually the idea the Guru Amar Das ji took refuge in the Lord's light is an accepted interpretation of this line by several people I know who have Guru Amar Das as a special protector.
     
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  6. gur_meet

    gur_meet India
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    The word ਵਸਿ is quite commenly used in gurbani and occurs about 145 times in Sri Guru Granth Saheb ji . It means ' subject to , under control , under power etc" and also means to live .

    The pungtaee below is illustrative of how kartar is said to be 'under control'.


    ਹਰਿਦਾਸਨਕੈਵਸਿਹੈਜਿਉਜੰਤੀਕੈਵਸਿਜੰਤੁ
    har dhaasan kai vas hai jio janthee kai vas janth ||
    The Lord is under the control of His slaves, like the musical instrument under the control of the musician.
    -SGGS 652

    This is reference to the stage of oneness, unification. There is no difference between the Bhagat and God.
    In this stage one who talks is the creator , one who sees is the creator, all body parts are HIS. This is the stage where ' jyote swaroope' is in full shine.

    In the line under discussion : ਗੁਰਿਅਮਰਦਾਸਿਕਰਤਾਰੁਕੀਅਉਵਸਿਵਾਹੁਵਾਹੁਕਰਿਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਇਯਉ॥ 1405
    Through Wah Wah (simran : where oneness is felt and hukam is seen prevailing) Guru Amardass brought under power the Kartar i e became ONE with KARTAR ( creator) and the power of Kartar , the light of kartar shined through him.
     
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  7. satnamr46

    satnamr46 Canada
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    Dear Cyber Sangat Ji

    Waheguru ji ka khalsa
    Waheguru ji ki Fateh

    Prof Sahib Singh has translated the word ਵਸਿ to mean control the Lord in many instances.But then he also gives this word another meaning which is Reejhaaonaa rIJdw which is to earn the loving approval of the Lord through pure, selfless loving devotion.

    Here is the Shabad:

    ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਘਿਣਾਵਣੇ ॥ ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਬੇਦ ਪੜਾਵਣੇ ॥ ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਈਐ ॥ ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਧਾਈਐ ॥ ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਕਿਤੈ ਸਿਆਣਪੈ ॥ ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੇ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਵਸਿ ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰਾ ॥ ਤੂ ਭਗਤਾ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਤਾਣੁ ਤੇਰਾ ॥੧੦॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 962}

    pdArQ:- iGxwvxy—iGiGAwaux nwl, ivKwvy dy qrly ilAW [ qIriQ—qIrQ auqy [ DrqI DweIAY—swrI DrqI auqy jy dOVdy iPrIey [ Agm—hy AphuMc! Agocr—A-go-cr [ go-igAwn ieMdRy [ cr—phuMc [ Agocr—ijs qk igAwn ieMidRAW dI phuMc n ho sky [ qwxu—bl, Awsrw [ Bgq—Bjn krn vwly [ vis—v`s ivc [ nweIAY—jy ieSnwn kIqw jwey [ dy—dy ky [ sBu ko—hryk jIv [

    ArQ:- hy pRBU! bhuqy ivKwvy dy qrly ilAW, vyd pVHn pVHwaux nwl, qIrQ auqy ieSnwn krn nwl, (rmqy swDUAW vWg) swrI DrqI gwhx nwl, iksy cqurweI-isAwxp nwl, bhuqw dwn dyx nwl, qUM iksy jIv dy v`s ivc nhIN AwauNdw (iksy auqy rIJdw nhIN) [

    hy AphuMc qy Agocr pRBU! hryk jIv qyry ADIn hY (iehnW ivKwvy dy au~dmW nwl koeI jIv qyrI pRsMnqw pRwpq nhIN kr skdw) [

    qUM isr& auhnW auqy rIJdw hYN jo sdw qyrw ismrn krdy hn, (ikauNik) qyrw Bjn-ismrn krn vwilAW ƒ (isr&) qyrw Awsrw-prnw huMdw hY [10[

    To me the loving and approving glances of Akal Purkh makes more sense.Sikhi is about selfless love and devotion for God and His creation since God is in His Creation.

    Respectfully,
    Satnam Singh
     
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  8. Archived_Member16

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    Thanks "gur meet" ji:

    "This is reference to the stage of oneness, unification. There is no difference between the Bhagat and God.
    In this stage one who talks is the creator , one who sees is the creator, all body parts are HIS. This is the stage where ' jyote swaroope' is in full shine."


    Personally I believe the above statement is the "key" to this entire discussion for "the divine atma" merged with and became part of the Parmata !


     
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  9. Santokh Singh1989

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    Thank you all so very much for your help. It means a great deal to be able to acquire this information from all of you. Where I am at the Granthis at my Gurudwara speak poor english so when I have questions like this there are only two places I can turn to for answers, God and the vast array of knowledge on the internet, but it can be hard to sift trhough so much information. Espescialy when much of it is just opinions. Thank you to everyone who responded to my question once again. Also I am curious if anyone knows the second part of my question as to who those poets were and why when you look up lists of sikh bhagats, they are not on them. mabey I'm just not looking in the right places. If anyone has any answers I would love to hear them

    WJJK WJKF
     
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  10. spnadmin

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    Santokh ji - They were not among the bhagats, but the bhats. Here is a list from the index of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

    The bhats were Hindus who lived in the general region of the Indus river and were monotheist Hindus. Among them "Bal" wrote many hymns in praise of the 4th Nanak Ram Das. When Guru Arjan Dev (Nanak 4) included the bhats poetry/hymns in the Aad Granth, he was acknowledging their deep devotion, bhagati, to the one Creator Lord. That is the background for that one line.

    Bhats were Poets as I explained earlier. This link explains their origins and who they were. They composed the Sawayeys in honor of Gurus Nanak, Angad, Amar Das, and Ram Das.

    Bhatra.co.uk:: Origin of the Bhats
     
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  11. japjisahib04

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    In similar way, Bhatts in Sweviah while honoring the Guru maintain that in order to uproot the evils and confusion of societies, this time instead of Paigamber or AvtarAwip nrwiexu klw Dwir jg mih prvirXau ] inrMkwir Awkwru joiq jg mMfil kirXau ] -God Himself wielded His Power in Guru Nanak and entered the world. The Formless God thus took Form, and with His Light He illuminated the realms of the world.” - Guru Granth ang.1395.6.

    It would be useful to clarify doubts created by a certain scholar by literally interpretating one lines, who advocates confusion that <TT>Bhatts bridges the concept of incarnate God of the Hindus and the Sikh concept of God being Ajooni. They maintain, He is already in His creation - He does not need to come squat in person. How do you fit a ocean in a hole? My humble submission is that all that Bhatts are doing is lavishing praise on our Gurus in traditional (shoaba) poetry for bringing complete truth to the world, no more than that. Bhatts were traditional scribes. This was their style and it is basically in every poetry of theirs - including those written for the kings and princes. I guess their heart was in right place. It should be viewed in the light of the following verse in</TT><TT>Gian Dhian Kichh Karam N Jaanaa Saar N Jaanaa Teri ll Sabh te Wadha SATGUR, NANAK Jin Kal Rakhi Meri ll -</TT>I know nothing about wisdom, meditation and good deeds; I know nothing about Your excellence O my beloved God. Satguru, the Sabd, is the greatest of all; He saved my honor by enlightening the world in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga.<TT>” - Guru Granth ang.750.3. Here it seems 5th Guru Ji is praising 1st Guru Ji and as such propaganda is being made that gurus are praising each other. But this is a wrong interpretation. It is all in praise of Sabd Guru- the Akal Purakh who saved his honor and accomplished his mission by enlightening the world with complete truth,</TT><TT> the baani, whenever the God is forgotten.</TT>
    <TT></TT>
    <TT>In order to make it crystal clear Guru Arjan Ji is saying that, “</TT>The spiritual knowledge of His baani is emanated from Sabd thus is presenting complete truth.” - Guru Granth ang.628.2.
     
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  12. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Japjisahibo4 ji,

    Your posts reflects not only in depth knowledge but also sprinkles serenity and peace. Too grateful for posting it, Sir.

    Thanks once again.
     
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  13. spnadmin

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    jasbirkaleka ji

    Your comments are extremely interesting and not something that has been posted over and over again. If you have any more information along the lines you have shared so far, please add to our threads about the bhats.
     
  14. arshi

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    ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਮੁ ਜਾਣਾ ਸਾਰ ਜਾਣਾਤੇਰੀਸਭ ਤੇ ਵਡਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਲ ਰਾਖੀ ਮੇਰੀ੪॥੧੦॥੫੭॥{ਪੰਨਾ 749-750}

    giaan dhiaan kichh karam na jaanaa saar na jaanaa teyree.
    sabh tey vadaa satgur naanak jin kal raakhee mayree.

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><?"urn:[​IMG]ਜਿਸਕੇ ਸਿਰ ਊਪਰਿ ਤੂੰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਕੈਸਾ ਪਾਵੈਬੋਲਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦਿ ਮਾਤਾ ਮਰਣਾ ਚੀਤਿ ਆਵੈ੧॥

    jis kay sir oopar too<SUP>N</SUP> suaamee so dukh kaisaa paavai.
    bol na jaanai maaiaa mad maataa marnaa cheet na aavai. ||1||

    <TT></TT>
    <TT>O Lord the devotee blessed by you can never feel any pain or suffering. Such a devotee will never utter a word under the influence of ego or worldly illusion (maya). The fear of death never enters his mind or heart – i.e. never troubles him (note: another translation of the second half of this pankti is possible but if we take the pankti as a whole, the interpretation as above, IMO, makes more sense, as the blessed one will not fear death or speak in ego.</TT>

    <TT></TT>
    <TT>Humbly </TT>
    <TT>Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'</TT>
    <TT></TT>


     
    #13 arshi, Mar 11, 2010
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  15. spnadmin

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    Please forgive me. However do we need a new and different thread to continue this discussion? We seem to be moving on a related issue but away from the original question in the title of the thread. We are looking a different shabad.
     
  16. arshi

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    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-language: PA; mso-bidi-font-family: Raavi; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang=EN-GB><EM><STRONG>The system somehow messes up my post – leaves out lines. I am posting this again without the Gurmakhi font.<?"urn:[​IMG]
    giaan dhiaan kichh karam na jaanaa saar na jaanaa teyree.
    sabh tey vadaa satgur naanak jin kal raakhee mayree.

    <TT>The translation by Sant Singh is too literal at times, as appears to be the case here Usually the Punjabi translation by Prof Sahib Singh in Sri Guru Granth Darpan sheds more light but in this instance it is quiet, as the translation of this pankti is missed out. Overall, both Sant Singh ji and Prof Sahib Singh Ji have done a wonderful job.</TT>
    <TT></TT>
    Sahni ji is quite right in that the translation as per Sant Singh ji is incorrect – a comma needs to be placed after “Satgur”. Sahni ji’s version makes more sense IMO.

    sabh tey vadaa satgur (The Lord is the greatest of all); naanak jin kal raakhi mayree (O Nanak, the One who protects and sustains me).

    This is confirmed by the leading pankti of this shabad:

    jis kay sir oopar too<SUP>N</SUP> suaamee so dukh kaisaa paavai.
    bol na jaanai maaiaa mad maataa marnaa cheet na aavai. ||1||

    <TT></TT>
    <TT>O Lord the devotee blessed by you can never feel any pain or suffering. Such a devotee will never utter a word under the influence of ego or worldly illusion (maya). The fear of death never enters his mind or heart – i.e. never troubles him (note: another translation of the second half of this pankti is possible but if we take the pankti as a whole, the interpretation as above, IMO, makes more sense, as the blessed one will not fear death or speak in egoism.</TT>
    <TT></TT>
    Humbly
    Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
    Arshi’
     
    #15 arshi, Mar 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015
  17. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    I do think we need a different thread as the issues now being discussed are different.
     
  18. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Narayanjot kaur ji,<?"urn:[​IMG]
    Are you referring to me or Jasbirkaleka ji,

    Anyhow, I would like to mark here that in Guru Granth Sahib thousands of names like Ram, Rahim, Krishan, Govind, Beethal, Hari, Niranjan and Dayalu etc., as attributes are used to address God but word 'waheguru' coined by Bhats which it seems is addressed to fourth Guru Nanak. Since state of mind (vismad) of ‘wah’ emerges while listening, singing, understanding and dedicating to the baani of Guru Granth Sahib, therefore word ‘Waheguru’ is devoted to Guru Granth Sahib. In addition critical analysis of Swayiae indicates that Guru Ramdas has been further addressed by bhat as; ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ , ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ, ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ , isrI gurU isrI gurU isrI gurU siq jIau ]ਵਾਹੁਵਾਹੁ ਕਾ ਬਡਾ ਤਮਾਸਾand approval of word waheguru and inclusion of these swayees by Guru Arjan Dev Ji is an evidence of honor to his Sikhs equal to Guru, bhagats.

    There are 10 Swayas in the praise of Guru Nanak, 10 in praise of Guru Angad, 22 in praise of Guru Amardas, 60 in praise of Guru Ramdas and 21 in praise of Guru Arjan.

    Mohinder Singh Sahni
     
    #17 japjisahib04, Mar 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015

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