Christianity Allah And Parbrahm Are One And The Same

[spnadmin]

haha, you think I go around picking fights with people? :inca:
well actually... ya I do. ... kidding, I got better things to do

so why were you hoping that I would pick a fight?

Ah i see.
I never quite seen it being used like that
"Jios,

bla bla.."

Nah!!! It was just light sarcasm.:u): I guess we need to get back on topic.

 

[BhagatSingh]

ok lol, i think i get ur sarcasm.

 

[Astroboy]

Page 897, Line 6
ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
एको अलहु पारब्रहम ॥५॥३४॥४५॥
Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Randip Singh]

Reply in the post "Re: Sikh Atheism" reproduced here.

The Islamic concept of God is "We all belong to the same God,”. By this statement we separate ourselves from God. Sikhs and Hindus, on the other side say " We are all part of God, the same light." This makes us and everything around us GOD in Sargun Saroop.

.

This is not an Islamic concept but also a Sikh one. We are part of God, we all belong to God,He/she is around us and within us - but without God realisation everything is in vane. People walk around with God inside them without realising it, the so called "Manmukhs", and then there are "Gurmukhs" or God willed.

What you have stated is just a play on words, Ekh Musafir.

 

[Astroboy]

YouTube - Satnam Waheguru Simran Shabad by Anandmurti Gurumaa

 

[Astroboy]

This Gurbani singer is a devout Muslim-Chandigarh-Cities-The Times ...

The devout Muslim who never forgets to offer his namaz is invited to do kirtans by all major gurdwaras in the country and abroad. ...
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1264542.cms - 39k -

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

This is not an Islamic concept but also a Sikh one. We are part of God, we all belong to God,He/she is around us and within us - but without God realisation everything is in vane. People walk around with God inside them without realising it, the so called "Manmukhs", and then there are "Gurmukhs" or God willed.

What you have stated is just a play on words, Ekh Musafir.

No it is not a play of words. It is not my problem that You just fail to understand my posts. You rely on information from the internet by various people with agendas. People who in my opinion lack understanding of Gurbani and are trying to make themselves famous. I have the blessing of Divine and can easily sieve out authentic material out of trash. Sorry, but the same does not apply to you. Like a magpie you bring in vista among the jewels.
No offense intended here. This is the truth as I see it along with yourcounterparts.

 

[Randip Singh]

No it is not a play of words. It is not my problem that You just fail to understand my posts. You rely on information from the internet by various people with agendas. People who in my opinion lack understanding of Gurbani and are trying to make themselves famous. I have the blessing of Divine and can easily sieve out authentic material out of trash. Sorry, but the same does not apply to you. Like a magpie you bring in vista among the jewels.
No offense intended here. This is the truth as I see it along with yourcounterparts.

I rely on Bani thanks you and not the internet.

Unlike YOU I do not claim to have some kind of special relationship with one of the Guru's where the Guru comes to visit me.

Thanks

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

"Vista".........Bill gates launched Microsoft VISTA...and it has alreday sold millions of copies and is standard OS on most Computers...in fact this Messgae is being sent out from a VISTA based Computer...????? am i sending out vista ??
Seriously folks..this IS A PLAY ON WORDS !!! he he..vista vs Microsoft VISTA...a load of Bull/Vista ?? Benti with folded hands..please dont throw back this at me..please.

Gyani JS....

 

[spnadmin]

"Vista".........Bill gates launched Microsoft VISTA...and it has alreday sold millions of copies and is standard OS on most Computers...in fact this Messgae is being sent out from a VISTA based Computer...????? am i sending out vista ??
Seriously folks..this IS A PLAY ON WORDS !!! he he..vista vs Microsoft VISTA...a load of Bull/Vista ?? Benti with folded hands..please dont throw back this at me..please.

Gyani JS....

Gyani -- thanks for your perceptive comments and for clearing up the "vista" issue. Naturally, this eluded me totally.

Back to the discussion -- Allah and Parbrahm are one and the same -- Are they one and the same?

So far clear lines of debate have not emerged.

 

[aku]

Peace be upon you all,

I was reading through this thread and would like to contribute from what I know.

The first thing we must all understand is that the term "Allah" is not just a name but rather a word in Arabic. The common noun for "God" is "illah", it has a plural "illihe" meaning "Gods". However the word "Allah" is a PROPER noun and has no plural, gender or variations and means "The God". So the whole concept in Islam is that God is God of all creatures irrespective of any factors (religion, gender, sexuality, form, shape or size - incorporating plants, planets, humans, etc). So in that sense we can see that when a person of any faith calls upon God, no matter what name they use, they are actually calling to "The God" or "Allah". In that repsect your statement would be correct. A perfect example of this can be seen in the middle east where Christians call upon God as "Allah", they do not say "oh thats the Muslim god" but it is well known that Allah means "The God".

Taking an idealogical analysis; the statement would be completely incorrect, as we will see. Best to my knowledge in the Sikh belief God and Creation are one part of the same. However this is untrue in Islam, where creation is not "part" of the creator but has been created seperately for a purpose. Furthermore in Islam the belief that "God is within us" is against its teachings. God is percieved as a being who exists as a seperate entity from all created beings in entirety. So wether to consider anyone or thing to be in part being God (as in Christianity with Jesus) or in any form shape size being God (as in religions which use statues/idols) is considered a violation of the basic belief in One God.

The basic tennant of faith is Islam is,
"La Ilaha il Allah"
Translated:
"There is no God but The God"
And this God is not given any form shape, size or even gender (even though you see "he" being attributed to God in the Quran, but that is an effect of language, not an issue of Gender)

I hope my contribution to this discussion will help enhance our process of learning.

Peace be upon you all,

Your brother in Humanity,
Aku

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Brother Aku has provided an insight.... ALLAH is not ...the Muslim God per se...ALLAH is a Proper NOUN..THE GOD. Right.
imho PARBRAHM is also a Proper NOUN...and so is WAHEGURU....so is RAAM...So is GOPAL...
Each "Proper Noun" illustrates a particular attribute of " THE GOD".... for example NARAYAN is Master of the Oceans....RAAM is that which is infused in His Creation.
Imho taken in the sense of the Proper NOUN....all these are for ONE and the SAME ENTITY.....at least thats how Gurbani addresses Him (her)..

Gyani JS

 

[spnadmin]

Aku ji,

Sat Sri Adkaal! And many thanks to you Brother for bringing a reasoned perspective and information that has helped me understand the discussion much better.

When researching the topic of this thread it became apparent to me from sources I read that your comments as follows are true

" The first thing we must all understand is that the term "Allah" is not just a name but rather a word in Arabic. The common noun for "God" is "illah", it has a plural "illihe" meaning "Gods". However the word "Allah" is a PROPER noun and has no plural, gender or variations and means "The God". So the whole concept in Islam is that God is God of all creatures irrespective of any factors (religion, gender, sexuality, form, shape or size - incorporating plants, planets, humans, etc). So in that sense we can see that when a person of any faith calls upon God, no matter what name they use, they are actually calling to "The God" or "Allah". In that repsect your statement would be correct. A perfect example of this can be seen in the middle east where Christians call upon God as "Allah", they do not say "oh thats the Muslim god" but it is well known that Allah means "The God". " (Quoted from Aku ji)

This appeared in more than one source that I read. It may also be that when "Allah" is named in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, that the Gurus were speaking of God in the sense that you have described above, the name of God. For example, Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||

Your point regarding God in His Creation being a Sikh view but not an Islamic view also sounds correct to me.

"Best to my knowledge in the Sikh belief God and Creation are one part of the same. However this is untrue in Islam, where creation is not "part" of the creator but has been created seperately for a purpose. Furthermore in Islam the belief that "God is within us" is against its teachings. God is percieved as a being who exists as a seperate entity from all created beings in entirety." (quoted from Aku ji)

In earlier Christian times, when a cleric might have said that God was in His Creation, that person would be tried as a heretic (for example, Bonaventure the Franciscan). The concept of God who exists as a separate entity from all created beings is not only an Islamic view but is also part of the entire Abrahamic tradition, which includes Jews and Christians as well. From the prophet Isaiah we can see this view of God as separate from creation very clearly, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Please continue to contribute your thoughtful responses to our discussions.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Randip Singh, AAd and Gyaani Jarnail Singh,

You appear to have an agenda to confuse people. Just for a minute cast off your lunatic tendencies and bury you egos and compare the two posts below. If you have grace of God you will see that both posts sing the same tune. I would here offer my heartiest appreciation to brother aku to clear this matter. There is a big difference between Islam and Sikhism(also Hinduism) on this issue. Sikhism and Hinduism encompass the ideology of Islam. Islam sees god as an Independent entity to the rest of the creation.

Post by Ekmusafir_ajnabi

The Islamic concept of God is "We all belong to the same God,”. By this statement we separate ourselves from God. Sikhs and Hindus, on the other side say " We are all part of God, the same light." This makes us and everything around us GOD in Sargun Saroop.

Post by aku

Taking an idealogical analysis; the statement would be completely incorrect, as we will see. Best to my knowledge in the Sikh belief God and Creation are one part of the same. However this is untrue in Islam, where creation is not "part" of the creator but has been created seperately for a purpose. Furthermore in Islam the belief that "God is within us" is against its teachings. God is percieved as a being who exists as a seperate entity from all created beings in entirety. So wether to consider anyone or thing to be in part being God (as in Christianity with Jesus) or in any form shape size being God (as in religions which use statues/idols) is considered a violation of the basic belief in One God.

Aman ji please try to educate your staff to a broad understanding if they are to contribute to the discussions. This post examplifies my views on these moderators.

 

[spnadmin]

Ekmusafir ji

I confess that I cannot see how my recent comments in anyway differ from your own. I am in total agreement with aku ji, and have written a length that Allah and Parambrahm do not represent the same concept of God. Sikhism does not separate God from Creation. The Abrahamic traditions do at the level of transcendent God.

Please point out what I wrote that taxes your patience, and I will try to explain. Perhaps I did not use your exact words, but I in fact agree with your comments. In this regard I do not agree with several other individuals who have posted in the thread. Please go back and read Post #15, and you will see that for yourself.

 

[Astroboy]

Here's the shabad of relevance :-

(1349-19)
parbhaatee kabeer jee-o.
Parbhaatee Kabeer Jee-o


aval alah noor upaa-i-aa kudrat kay sabh banday.
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.


ayk noor tay sabh jag upji-aa ka-un bhalay ko manday. ||1||
From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||


logaa bharam na bhoolahu bhaa-ee.
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.


khaalik khalak khalak meh khaalik poor rahi-o sarab thaaN-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||


maatee ayk anayk bhaaNt kar saajee saajanhaarai.
The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.


naa kachh poch maatee kay bhaaNday naa kachh poch kumbhaarai. ||2||
There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||


sabh meh sachaa ayko so-ee tis kaa kee-aa sabh kachh ho-ee.
The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.


hukam pachhaanai so ayko jaanai bandaa kahee-ai so-ee. ||3||
Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||


alhu alakh na jaa-ee lakhi-aa gur gurh deenaa meethaa.
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.


kahi kabeer mayree sankaa naasee sarab niranjan deethaa. ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||

This shabad was posted in Islam Factor Forum

 

[pk70]

Ekmusafir ji

I confess that I cannot see how my recent comments in anyway differ from your own. I am in total agreement with aku ji, and have written a length that Allah and Parambrahm do not represent the same concept of God. Sikhism does not separate God from Creation. The Abrahamic traditions do at the level of transcendent God.

Please point out what I wrote that taxes your patience, and I will try to explain. Perhaps I did not use your exact words, but I in fact agree with your comments. In this regard I do not agree with several other individuals who have posted in the thread. Please go back and read Post #15, and you will see that for yourself.

Respected aad ji,
I am also surprised why Ek Musafir Ajanabi ji mentioned your name while pointing out some individuals who apposed him just for the sake of apposing. Randip Singh ji surprised me by apposing a crystal clear cut definition of concept of God in Islam and in Sikhism given by Ek Musfir ajanabi. Respected Gyani ji’s comments on Vista were totally a sad observation. Having so much expertise in English, why one needs to go that way, is beyond my comprehension. AKU has defined the concept of God in Islam and Sikhism pretty well; however, he misses a couple of things. Allah or Parbraham, literally are words, and words are what humans use to say any thing; noun or pronoun are also words. Aad Ji, the other thing you have completed it by adding concept of God in Christianity and Judaism. Concept of Sikhism of God, regardless the names( Noun or pronoun) given to HIM, is that He is one Creator and HE permeates in His creation, all the same, HE remains immaculate, beyond birth and death. My humble adition.

 

[spnadmin]

Nam Jap ji

I agree that the shabad is of relevance -- for example,

aval alah noor upaa-i-aa kudrat kay sabh banday.
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

And no

In Gurbani, it is true that "alah" may used as the name of God, yet the concept of God in Guruji is different from that in Islam at the same time.

Fareed is the bhagat of this shabad. Is Sheik Fareed saying 'alah" to invoke God's name? Or is he invoking a God who is not part of his creation along the lines of aku ji's eplanation of name versus idea? I tend to think Fareed is saying God is in His Creation and that is why the shabad was/is included in the Adi Granth.

But that is different from saying that Allah and Parabraham are the same in religious discourse, that Muslims and Sikhs mean the same thing by Allah and Parabraham.

Another problem in my humble opinion is the problem of translation. This may be one of the outstanding examples of where English translations mislead understanding.

Page 897, Line 6
ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
एको अलहु पारब्रहम ॥५॥३४॥४५॥
Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

I don't agree with this translation. The translator added a lot of his own thinking and probably thought he was clearing things up. But the translation is not helpful, and may in fact reflect a bias of the translator.

 

[pk70]

ਮਿਹਰ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰ ॥ ਭਗਤਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ॥
Mihar ḏa▫i▫ā kar karnaihār. Bẖagaṯ banḏagī ḏėh sirjaṇhār
O the Creator shower your kindness, Oh the Creator bless me with your praise and meditation
( Here to the Lord prayer goes on)
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਖੋਏ ਭਰਮ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥ Kaho Nānak gur kẖo▫e bẖaram. Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
Nanak says whose doubts are shattered by the Guru, for them, whom people addressed Allah and Parbraham, is the same Creator
(Here progression in spirituality is hinted as per Guru Blessings)
Please note it down, in these Guru Vakas, difference in considered concept of God in Islam or Sikhism/Hinduism is not discussed at all, it is all about the one Super being that is addressed with different names.

 

[spnadmin]

ਮਿਹਰ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰ ॥ ਭਗਤਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ॥
Mihar ḏa▫i▫ā kar karnaihār. Bẖagaṯ banḏagī ḏėh sirjaṇhār
O the Creator shower your kindness, Oh the Creator bless me with your praise and meditation
( Here to the Lord prayer goes on)
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਖੋਏ ਭਰਮ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥ Kaho Nānak gur kẖo▫e bẖaram. Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
Nanak says whose doubts are shattered by the Guru, for them, whom people addressed Allah and Parbraham, is the same Creator
(Here progression in spirituality is hinted as per Guru Blessings)
Please note it down, in this Shabad, difference in considered concept of God in Islam or Sikhism/Hinduism is not discussed at all, it is all about the one Super being that is addressed with different names.

Pk70 ji, Thank you for the shabad. It fits with the shabad below -- or am I wrong? The shabad below is the context for the line, ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
eaeko alahu paarabreham ||5||34||45|| The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

Respectfully, I do not agree with the English translation The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

Good enough would be "Allah and Paarbrahm are one and the same." The entire shabad sheds a different light, a different meaning for the line.

Shabad from Guru Arjan Dev ji in Raag Raamkalee Amg 897

ਓ*ੁਂ ਨਮੋ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਗੁਸਾਈ ॥
oun namo bhagavanth gusaaee ||
I humbly pray to invoke the Universal Lord God, the Lord of the World.


ਖਾਲਕੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
khaalak rav rehiaa sarab thaaee ||1|| rehaao ||
The Creator Lord is all-pervading, everywhere. ||1||Pause||


ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਮਾਧੋ ॥
jagannaathh jagajeevan maadhho ||
He is the Lord of the Universe, the Life of the World.


ਭਉ ਭੰਜਨ ਰਿਦ ਮਾਹਿ ਅਰਾਧੋ ॥
bho bhanjan ridh maahi araadhho ||
Within your heart, worship and adore the Destroyer of fear.


ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗਵਿੰਦ ॥
rikheekaes gopaal guovindh ||
The Master Rishi of the senses, Lord of the World, Lord of the Universe.

ਪੂਰਨ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਮੁਕੰਦ ॥੨॥
pooran sarabathr mukandh ||2||
He is perfect, ever-present everywhere, the Liberator. ||2||


ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨ ਮਉਲਾ ਤੂਹੀ ਏਕ ॥
miharavaan moulaa thoohee eaek ||
You are the One and only merciful Master,


ਪੀਰ ਪੈਕਾਂਬਰ ਸੇਖ ॥
peer paikaanbar saekh ||
spiritual teacher, prophet, religious teacher.


ਦਿਲਾ ਕਾ ਮਾਲਕੁ ਕਰੇ ਹਾਕੁ ॥
dhilaa kaa maalak karae haak ||
Master of hearts, Dispenser of justice,

ਕੁਰਾਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਤੇ ਪਾਕੁ ॥੩॥
kuraan kathaeb thae paak ||3||
more sacred than the Koran and the Bible. ||3||


ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਨਰਹਰ ਦਇਆਲ ॥
naaraaein narehar dhaeiaal ||
The Lord is powerful and merciful.


ਰਮਤ ਰਾਮ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਆਧਾਰ ॥
ramath raam ghatt ghatt aadhhaar ||
The all-pervading Lord is the support of each and every heart.


ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਬਸਤ ਸਭ ਠਾਇ ॥
baasudhaev basath sabh thaae ||
The luminous Lord dwells everywhere.

ਲੀਲਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਲਖੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥
leelaa kishh lakhee n jaae ||4||
His play cannot be known. ||4||

ਮਿਹਰ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰ ॥
mihar dhaeiaa kar karanaihaar ||
Be kind and compassionate to me, O Creator Lord.


ਭਗਤਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ॥
bhagath bandhagee dhaehi sirajanehaar ||
Bless me with devotion and meditation, O Lord Creator.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਖੋਏ ਭਰਮ ॥
kahu naanak gur khoeae bharam ||
Says Nanak, the Guru has rid me of doubt.

ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
eaeko alahu paarabreham ||5||34||45||
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

Guru ji says, that the Universal Lord can be invoked. He invokes him. He is all pervading, ever-present, everywhere, that He dwells everywhere. Guruji also says, that He dwells in the heart and is worshipped in the heart. Guruji also says, He is the Master Rishi of senses (the master meaning spiritual teacher, above all the rishis or holy men of the Himalayas). The rehao line states that the Creator is pervading everywhere. So when the Shabad ends, how could Guruji be saying that Allah (a Muslim god) and Paarbraahm (a Hindu god) are one and the same. The translation is skewed about this. In my humble opinion, eaeko alahu paarabreham, means Allah and Parabraham are merged as one and the same. Why? Because in the context of the entire shabad, Allah and Paarbrahm are part of the all pervading Lord. Guru Arjan Dev says, he no longer doubts this.

And these words of Guruji are not consistent with the Muslim view of God. So it is important to distinguish Guruji's message from the Koranic message because Guruji is kuraan kathaeb thae paak. Humble apologies.