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Alcohol Good for the Heart? Not Really!

Discussion in 'Health & Nutrition' started by spnadmin, Dec 29, 2009.

  1. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Alcohol good for heart? Not really
    Aditi Tandon
    Tribune News Service


    • First-ever study in India dispels alcohol myths
    • No evidence to suggest alcohol is good for the Indian heart
    • Avoid sudden and excess drinking
    • Drinks need to be taken with full meals
    New Delhi, December 27


    Who says moderate drinking of alcohol helps the heart? The first ever study conducted in India, not yet published, now claims that there is no evidence to suggest the firmly held popular belief that a drink or two protects the heart.
    Dr KS Reddy, the Prime Minister’s personal physician who now heads the Public Health Foundation of India (PHFI), told The Tribune that earlier studies in the West claimed that moderate intake of alcohol protected the heart by enhancing insulin sensitivity and elevating high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, which helps cardiovascular health.


    But the claim has failed the Indian test, with the first-ever study on the subject in India showing that alcohol, irrespective of the quantity in which it is consumed, is always harmful and never protective at all. In fact, Indians drinking alcohol have been found to be at two to three fold higher risk of heart disease than non-drinkers.


    Led by Dr Reddy, who recently oversaw Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s heart bypass surgery at AIIMS, the study was conducted on employees engaged in 10 major industries across India and their family members.


    “We have now shown in the Indian context that alcohol does not exhibit gains to cardiovascular health. Indians who drink face three fold higher risk of heart disease. The belief that moderate drinking helps the heart is not true for Indians,” Dr Reddy told The Tribune while pointing out that doubts are being voiced in the West too about the alleged protective properties of alcohol.


    In 2007, the American Diabetic Association had claimed, “In individuals with diabetes, light to moderate alcohol intake (1 or 2 drinks per day; 15 to 30 ml alcohol) is associated with a decreased risk of cardiovascular disease…”


    But Dr Reddy’s study, initiated when he was still at AIIMS, looked at people in India with evidence of heart disease. “We found that people with heart disease were more likely to be drinking in the past,” said Dr Reddy, who looked at population from industries ranging from machine tools in Pune and cycles in Ludhiana to the tea estates in Assam.


    “Many etymological studies in the West have shown that alcohol is good for the heart. This has something to do with the high fat intake in the food of westerners. While fat is known to increase the tendency towards blood clotting, alcohol is known to reduce the same. But we wanted to study a population where fat intake is not very high, like in India. We concluded that alcohol intake among Indians tended to fuel more electrical excitability of the heart which in turn led to fatal events like heart attacks besides de-stablilising diabetes control,” Dr Reddy said.


    Indians also have a tendency to drink at festivals and over weekends. Warning that the ‘Holiday Heart Syndrome’ was extremely pronounced in India, Dr Reddy added, “Sudden and excess drinking must be avoided. Whenever people drink, they should take care to drink with full meal to delay the absorption of alcohol.”


    The trend was confirmed by Dr Balbir Singh, chairman, cardiology, Medicity: “We are seeing more patients these days. It may have a relation to binge drinking over festivals. We can, however, say that the incidence of heart attacks is 20 per cent higher in winter.”

     
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  3. roopsidhu

    roopsidhu
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    SSA,
    Surely alcohal can not be good for health, wealth or family life. Researchs are saying it now but gurbani has stated it since begining. Let the scientist and researches do there researches ultimatly they are going to reach to the conclusions which gurbani has already concluded.
    Roopsidhu
     
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  4. stanelyshane

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    When there is the stone problem then doctor prescribe the alcohol based medication. To take the alcohol in limits is helpful in all way. I take it for the health not for the enjoyment.
     
  5. BazGrewal

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    I honestly don't believe that alcohol or other intoxicants can be good for your health at all.
     
  6. Shanger

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    There are plenty more credible studies which suggest that alcohol in moderation IS good for you, such as red wine, which relaxes the blood vessels allowing the heart to work less hard pumping blood.
     
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  7. findingmyway

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    Actually no! Those studies have been discredited as the experimental methods used were found to be flawed. It is often bad science but as it makes good headlines, such stories are popular in the media (as is a lot of bad science!). People are always desperate for a positive to alcohol....sorry to disappoint. Maybe stick to ice cream icecreamkudiicecreammunda
     
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  8. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Dear Findingmyway Ji

    Could not the excessive consumption of icecream also not lead to diabetes and please could you provide evidence of the flawed methods you describe or should we take your word for it?
     
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  9. findingmyway

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    Never take anyone else's word for it!! I'm glad you ask.

    Firstly you are very right about ice cream. That comment was referencing a conversation about chardi kala ice cream that was taking place at the time so it was a bit tongue in cheek!! You should eat and drink to retain a chardi kala ice cream frame of mind lol:grinningkudi:winkingmunda

    The best way to analyze the studies is to look at the data yourself. If you have an athens account you can download the scientific papers about the original studies from pubmed. Look carefully at the methodology and analysis. Statistics can often be manipulated to show effects that aren't really there.

    Working in clinical research and being involved in writing reports taught me not to trust anything I read! If you look at the conclusions they do not always relate to the numbers seen very well. They also always say there MAY be an effect as it is so small. Did they use statistically significant effect or clinically significaint effect? They are 2 different things. The 1st is mathematical and arbitrary but the 2nd is what we look for as clinicians.

    Look at the methodology and recruitment carefully. Is what they are measuring really representative of a protective effect? Or is it too much of an indirect effect (often the case). Have the most appropriate patients been enrolled to reduce confounding factors? The studies often don't account for confounding factors (things that make the analysis meaningless as the effect can be due to something else that has not been accounted for). How has consumption level been measured? Is it lifelong or recent? A lot of the studies used recovered alcoholics in the teetotaller group which will affect the health of this group and make the conclusions invalid. Were enough patients recruited to see an effect?

    A number of other flaws but I fear I'm not explaining this very well! Here are some links written in plain language by researchers which explain things better than me-
    http://addictions.about.com/od/substancedependence/a/healthmyth.htm

    http://health.drgily.com/alcohol-effects-heart.php
    Even wikipedia has a section about how the effect reported may or may not be there! I have also read a report about how the research is biased as the researchers were all drinkers and keen for positive results. However, I cannot find that source at the moment. Sorry!

    Hope this makes sense :sippingcoffee:
     
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  10. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Dear Sister

    Thankyou I will try to read up on it ,but as my name suggests, I have plenty of other cardinal sins to absolve .

    I never drink for the protective effect ,it's just something I do occasionally,mainly to fuel my dancing at parties!:mundabhangra:
     
  11. Randip Singh

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    Alcohol is used in many medicines eg Nigh Nurse. So as a Sikh am I commiting a sin when drinking it? It certainly impairs my senses and sends me to sleep.
     
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  12. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Dear Randip Singh Ji

    That's not a sin ,but if you spend a night out with a nurse ,then that maybe a different matter altogether!:thx:
     
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    #11 Scarlet Pimpernel, Jun 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2011
  13. findingmyway

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    Posts Moved From: Alcohol Good for the Heart? Not Really!

    Randip ji, I am very surprised at your question and quite dismayed by your post. There is no concept of sin in Sikhi as you know very very well. The scenario you give is also a whole different situation! The discussion is about social drinking, not medicinal. Using alcohol in its original form is not medicinal or protective despite common thinking. I am merely explaining the science to clear the myths. Medications use alcohol as 1 ingredient of many at low levels and it is taken for a particular purpose. The 2 situations are not comparable. How can you possibly compare night nurse to a trip to the pub for a beer or a glass of wine (under the misconception that it is helping the heart)?! This is what I keep saying again and again-people need to understand their motives for their actions and then evaluate whether that is in line with Gurbani. Nitpicking and excuses are very counterproductive to this process. How someone behaves is their choice but it should be chosen with understanding. I am not here to be judgmental but I really don't understand why Sikhs insist on normalising alcohol in all its forms? :dunno:

    This entire thread is about the science of alcoholic drinks, where did sin or medication come in anyway??
     
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  14. Randip Singh

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    The reason for this question is in many Sikh households the substitution for Night Nurse is Brandy :)


    ...and Sinner ji, I prefer the Day Nurse :p
     
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  15. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    There is absolutley no such thing as "sin/SIN/Original or otherwise " in Gurbani. This concept is non-sikh and non-gurmat.

    Alcohol may be an easy way..cheap way to make medicines/drugs such as cough medicines etc..BUT there are other ways and methods too...this use of alcohol is a business decision..and in Muslim Countries like mine alcohol being Haram..the Govt has funded islamic scientists and manufacturers to make and sell non-alcoholic based perfumes, aerosols, even baby medicines like Gripe Water..so it can be done - as long as the will is there.

    Literally HUNDREDS of tuks and shabads sprinkled throughout the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are IMAGES of "alcohol production" which is used by Guru Ji to show an ALTERNATIVE PREFERENCE. Page 360 comes to mind - since i was doing my sehaj paath on this page today...in the Tuks Guru Ji advises..Instead of collecting GURR (jaggery used as Base Sugar for fermentation in home made alcohol) why not collect GYAAN - KNOWLEDGE ??..and use DHYAAN - concentration to recite/vichaar His name (instead of concentrating at the boiling pot of desi sheraab )...and Put in the Good deeds instead of Kas (probabaly some sort of chemicals added to separate the foam)...and as the BHathee (fire ) put in the PREM - LOVE for HIM..and watch the AMRIT of His Naam percolate and drip drop by drop....( as the alcohol drips drop by drop).

    Looking at this IMAGERY of a Bhathee (in English?) in the Sugar cane field ( Illegal bhatees like this can still be seen in Punjab fields today for desi ghar dee khadhee hoi RROORREE Marka ), it is clear Guru Nanak Ji was well aware of how alcohol is manufactured and here He is trying to persuade the "Ahluwalliah - sherab manufacturer ) to change his ways and STOP making this false intoxicant and begin using the REAL INTOXICANT of Naam-prem-good deeds-amrit and enjoyment.

    ALCOHOL whether in drop or gallon is a clear NO NO NO in Gurmatt. Period.

    When my late dad was diagnosed as having suffered his first of 3 heart attacks Mycardial infarction.. the doctor advised him to begin taking a glass of wine a day... and he could live longer... dad told him... I haven't touched a drop all my life... WHY should I start NOW that my life is coming to an END ?? dad lived on for another 15 years... and two more heart attacks - no bypasses or angioplasty for him either... as that would entail beadbi of kesh shaving chest etc...and the final mycardial infarction was massive... but he went happily doing his sukhmani sahibs and anand sahibs till the last breath. Its a Fallacy that a glass of alcohol may have added years... but what about his self respect ?? He did add 15 years..but maintaining his self respect and dignity of maintaining his discipline rehat and not compromising these. I respect him more for this.
     
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  16. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Gyaniji,

    Your father sounds like my grandfather! I have a similar story.

    Sorry to go off here at a tangent, but is cutting hair for an operation beadbi?

    thank you
     
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  17. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Not allowing the doc to cut/shave for an operation was his personal decision. It was OK for when he broke his left arm at the wrist in an accident and the surgeon was also a Sikh, and his Gurbani student to boot !! That op went all ok...arm was in plaster (those days that was the ebst way and the damn plaster was ON for months and months...Ha Ha..Then years later he broke his right arm in another accident..again same surgeon..same result. Heat attack was in a different town..different surgeon..they said we cnat take the "risk"...my dad said..I CAN. Thank You...and went on to live....for another 15 years with blockages...and all intact..but improved diet and longer walks etc..he was happy.

    2. For ordinary folks...you may allow cutting/shaving..example for childbirth..open heart surgery..broken limbs etc etc..and then you may appear before the Five (Panj Piayaras) during an Amrti sanchaar, inform them about this and take it form there...Such things happen and are allowed..we are not die hard purists..not everyone at least...my dad was one of a kind...
     
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  18. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Dear Gyani Ji ,Finding my way Ji

    Visa Vee Sin I looked up english translation of "sinner" as in for example "purifier of the sinners" and there were over two entries ,I have posted a few,as relevant in a roundabout sort of way to the topic. <TABLE cellSpacing=25 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 2, Line 15
    ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
    कीटा अंदरि कीटु करि दोसी दोसु धरे ॥
    Kītā anḏar kīt kar ḏosī ḏos ḏẖare.
    Among worms, you would be considered a lowly worm, and even contemptible sinners would hold you in contempt.
    Guru Nanak Dev- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 4, Line 4
    ਅਸੰਖ ਪਾਪੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
    असंख पापी पापु करि जाहि ॥
    Asaʼnkẖ pāpī pāp kar jāhi.
    Countless sinners who keep on sinning.
    Guru Nanak Dev- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 87, Line 3
    ਜਿਥੈ ਓਹੁ ਜਾਇ ਤਿਥੈ ਓਹੁ ਸੁਰਖਰੂ ਉਸ ਕੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਡਿਠੈ ਸਭ ਪਾਪੀ ਤਰਿਆ ॥
    जिथै ओहु जाइ तिथै ओहु सुरखरू उस कै मुहि डिठै सभ पापी तरिआ ॥
    Jithai oh jā▫e ṯithai oh surkẖarū us kai muhi diṯẖai sabẖ pāpī ṯari▫ā.
    Wherever he goes, he is recognized as honorable. Seeing his face, all sinners are saved.
    Guru Ram Das- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 89, Line 17
    ਜੈਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਓ ਧਰਮੀਆ ਕਾ ਪਾਪੀ ਕਉ ਡੰਡੁ ਦੀਓਇ ॥੧੬॥
    जैकारु कीओ धरमीआ का पापी कउ डंडु दीओइ ॥१६॥
    Jaikār kī▫o dẖarmī▫ā kā pāpī ka▫o dand ḏī▫o▫i. ||16||
    He honors the righteous and punishes the sinners. ||16||
    Guru Ram Das- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 90, Line 14
    ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਿਆਉ ਪਾਪੀ ਨਰੁ ਹਾਰਦਾ ॥
    सचा साहिबु सचु निआउ पापी नरु हारदा ॥
    Sacẖā sāhib sacẖ ni▫ā▫o pāpī nar hārḏā.
    True is the Master, and True is His Justice; only the sinners are defeated.
    Guru Ram Das- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 91, Line 1
    ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥
    पापीआ नो न देई थिरु रहणि चुणि नरक घोरि चालिअनु ॥
    Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an.
    He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell.
    Guru Ram Das- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 93, Line 16
    ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਹੁੰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    पतित पावन नामु कैसे हुंता ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Paṯiṯ pāvan nām kaise hunṯā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    how would You have acquired the name, 'Redeemer of sinners'? ||1||Pause||
    Devotee Ravidas- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 137, Line 2
    ਦੀਨਾ ਨਾਥ ਦੈਆਲ ਦੇਵ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
    दीना नाथ दैआल देव पतित उधारणहारु ॥
    Ḏīnā nāth ḏai▫āl ḏev paṯiṯ uḏẖāraṇhār.
    He is the Patron of the poor, the Merciful, Luminous Lord, the Redeemer of sinners.
    Guru Arjan Dev- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 138, Line 13
    ਜੋ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਧਰਮ ਨਾਉ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਾਪਿ ਕਮਾਣੈ ਪਾਪੀ ਜਾਣੀਐ ॥
    जो धरमु कमावै तिसु धरम नाउ होवै पापि कमाणै पापी जाणीऐ ॥
    Jo ḏẖaram kamāvai ṯis ḏẖaram nā▫o hovai pāp kamāṇai pāpī jāṇī▫ai.
    One who lives righteously is known as righteous; one who commits sins is known as a sinner.
    Guru Angad Dev- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 153, Line 5
    ਹਉ ਪਾਪੀ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਏਕ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    हउ पापी तूं निरमलु एक ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Ha▫o pāpī ṯūʼn nirmal ek. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    I am a sinner - You alone are pure. ||1||Pause||
    Guru Nanak Dev- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 163, Line 13
    ਪਾਪੀ ਪਾਥਰ ਡੂਬਦੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ॥
    पापी पाथर डूबदे गुरमति हरि तारे ॥
    Pāpī pāthar dūbḏe gurmaṯ har ṯāre.
    The sinners sink like stones; through the Guru's Teachings, the Lord carries us across.
    Guru Amar Das- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 167, Line 5
    ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਹਮ ਪਾਪੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
    मेरे राम हम पापी सरणि परे हरि दुआरि ॥
    Mere rām ham pāpī saraṇ pare har ḏu▫ār.
    O my Lord, I am a sinner; I have come to Your Sanctuary, and fallen at Your Door, Lord.
    Guru Ram Das- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 167, Line 7
    ਹਮ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਰਾਖੇ ਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤੀ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਦੀਓ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਛਡਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
    हम अपराधी राखे गुर संगती उपदेसु दीओ हरि नामु छडावै ॥२॥
    Ham aprāḏẖī rākẖe gur sangṯī upḏes ḏī▫o har nām cẖẖadāvai. ||2||
    I am a sinner, saved only by the Company of the Guru. He has bestowed the Teachings of the Lord's Name, which saves me. ||2||
    Guru Ram Das- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 167, Line 8
    ਹਮ ਜੈਸੇ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਕੋਈ ਰਾਖੈ ਜੈਸੇ ਹਮ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖਿ ਲੀਏ ਛਡਾਇ ॥
    हम जैसे अपराधी अवरु कोई राखै जैसे हम सतिगुरि राखि लीए छडाइ ॥
    Ham jaise aprāḏẖī avar ko▫ī rākẖai jaise ham saṯgur rākẖ lī▫e cẖẖadā▫e.
    Can anyone else save a sinner like me? The True Guru has protected and saved me.
    Guru Ram Das- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
     
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    #17 Scarlet Pimpernel, Jun 18, 2011
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  19. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Dear Gyani Ji ,Finding my way Ji

    Visa Vee Sin, I looked up english translation of "sinner" as in for example "purifier of the sinners" and there were over two hundred entries ,I have posted a few,and most of the instruction against alcohol was referring to the drunk (to alcohol abuse) rather than medicinal or social utility . <TABLE cellSpacing=25 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 252, Line 9
    ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦ ਮਾਤੇ ॥
    अह्मबुधि माइआ मद माते ॥
    Ahaʼn▫buḏẖ mā▫i▫ā maḏ māṯe.
    they are drunk with the wine of egotistical intellect and Maya.
    Guru Arjan Dev- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
    </TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 311, Line 11
    ਓਹ ਆਲੁ ਪਤਾਲੁ ਮੁਹਹੁ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਜਿਉ ਪੀਤੈ ਮਦਿ ਮਤਵਾਲੇ ॥੧੯॥
    ओह आलु पतालु मुहहु बोलदे जिउ पीतै मदि मतवाले ॥१९॥
    Oh āl paṯāl muhhu bolḏe ji▫o pīṯai maḏ maṯvāle. ||19||
    With their mouths, they babble on about this and that, like the drunkard who has drunk his wine. ||19||
    Guru Ram Das- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
    </TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 351, Line 8
    ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਮਤਾਗਲੁ ਮਤਾ ॥
    मन की मति मतागलु मता ॥
    Man kī maṯ maṯāgal maṯā.
    The intellect of the mind is like a drunken elephant.
    Guru Nanak Dev- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Page 1231, Line 5
    ਤੀਨਿ ਭਉਨੇ ਲਪਟਾਇ ਰਹੀ ਕਾਚ ਕਰਮਿ ਨ ਜਾਤ ਸਹੀ ਉਨਮਤ ਅੰਧ ਧੰਧ ਰਚਿਤ ਜੈਸੇ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਗਰ ਹੋਹੇ ॥੧॥
    तीनि भउने लपटाइ रही काच करमि न जात सही उनमत अंध धंध रचित जैसे महा सागर होहे ॥१॥
    Ŧīn bẖa▫une laptā▫e rahī kācẖ karam na jāṯ sahī unmaṯ anḏẖ ḏẖanḏẖ racẖiṯ jaise mahā sāgar hohe. ||1||
    Maya clings to the three worlds; those who are stuck in wrong actions cannot escape her. Drunk and engrossed in blind worldly affairs, they are tossed about on the mighty ocean. ||1||<TABLE cellSpacing=25 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 914, Line 4
    ਕਾਹੂ ਬਿਹਾਵੈ ਅਮਲੀ ਹੂਆ ॥
    काहू बिहावै अमली हूआ ॥
    Kāhū bihāvai amlī hū▫ā.
    Some pass their lives getting drunk.
    Guru Arjan Dev- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

    </TD></TR><TR><TD>Page 971, Line 4
    ਲੰਪਟ ਚੋਰ ਦੂਤ ਮਤਵਾਰੇ ਤਿਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਦਾ ਬਸੇਰਾ ॥੩॥
    ल्मपट चोर दूत मतवारे तिन संगि सदा बसेरा ॥३॥
    Lampat cẖor ḏūṯ maṯvāre ṯin sang saḏā baserā. ||3||
    Drunkards, thieves, and evil-doers - I constantly dwell with them. ||3||
    Devotee Kabir- [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    [/SIZE]
     
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    #18 Scarlet Pimpernel, Jun 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  20. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Sinner Singh ji

    My response is going to seem like I am pushing a technicality too far. However, I don't think so. The use of the English word "sinner" is a translation decision made by a translator trying to convey the meaning of a tuk to an English speaking audience. There is a problem with this. The words so translated as "sinner" do not mean "sinner." This concept is western, and Judaeo Christian. It has little application to dharmic understanding. That is one of the reasons why many forum members become irritated by English translations. We are stuck with them, because without them, anyone who lacks Punjabi skills would be completely denied access to the shabad of Guru Granth Sahib ji.

    The meaning in each of those tuks needs individual attention because a single word, "sinner," is not quite right for every shabad in which it is used. That is why we have a rule at SPN. Individual tuks must be discussed with the full shabad, along with Gurmukhi and English. The shabad in every case gives the context for understanding this idea of "sinner." And there are better ways and words to use in translation.

    In spite of the fact that Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa M.D. has produced "the consensus translation" per SGPC, there is no consensus in the panth that his translations are consistently adequate.

    Now when I have time, and the forum software is behaving itself, i will take 2 of those tuks and demonstrate how the word "sinner" is out of place.
     
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  21. ge77inhigh

    ge77inhigh
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    well ,it will not be a sin. As a Sikh, i don't believe in ******** of sin. I think the reason Gurbani doesn't want people to drink is due to problems it can cause in people's life. Any thing relating to medical reason will never be a sin. I drink and i smoke but i focus on my actions rather than what i use. If alcohol is a sin then why not taking anti-depressant for a person who is severely depressed. Let the Catholics and Muslims worry about sins let us Sikhs focus on following Sri Guru Granth Shaib.
     

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