Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Islam Abrogated Verses in the Koran

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by BabbarSher, Feb 11, 2005.

  1. BabbarSher

    BabbarSher
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2004
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    7
    It would be gr8 if someone can comment/provide views on the following

    http://library.flawlesslogic.com/verses.htm

    "Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clearly from error" (Sura 2.256).

    Apologists for Islam often quote this verse, and most Westerners, unfamiliar with the Koran and imagining that it must obey the same theological logic as the Christian Bible, assume that Islamic scripture mandates religious toleration toward non-Muslims. That assumption is inaccurate.

    The Koran includes many abrogated verses, called mansukh, and abrogating verses, nasikh; the latter cancel the former, rendering them invalid, though they nevertheless remain in the Koran and are deceptively quoted, for Western consumption, as though they still represented genuine Islamic beliefs. Nasikh and mansukh are legion: Of the Koran's 114 suras (chapters), only 43 are without abrogated or abrogating verses. That is naturally surprising, and so unexpected that few Westerners are aware that significant segments of the Koran have been theologically annulled. Mohammed's non-Muslim contemporaries were just as surprised.

    How does one know, when two verses are contradictory, which is abrogated and which is abrogating? It is a question of date: Later texts abrogate earlier texts whenever there are inconsistencies between them. Many of the Koranic verses that teach tolerance and peace, in particular those that prohibit compulsion in religion, are in Sura 2, which is among the oldest chapters of the Koran and thus liable to abrogation, whenever Allah felt the inclination to revoke his immutable word. Although Islam, unlike Judaism and Christianity, received its revelation from a single person within a short period of time, roughly twenty years, Mohammed was nonetheless able to impose upon his followers the implausible belief that the inerrant Muslim God had routinely changed his mind.

    The pacific, tolerant message of Sura 2.256 reflects the historical circumstances of its composition. Islam was still then decidedly a minority faith and Mohammed and his small band of followers, in Medina and surrounded by non-Muslim enemies, were threatened with destruction. The early Koran of necessity presented religious tolerance as a divine command because nascent Islam had not yet acquired the physical power to compel conversion: "The Apostle had not been given permission to fight or allowed to shed blood ... he had simply been ordered to call men to God, endure insult, and forgive the ignorant" (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah).

    Tolerant MuslimBut when Islam became powerful, Allah's eternal message changed. Islam could now "call people by the sword" -- that is, compel conversion -- and accordingly "verses of the sword" were conveniently revealed to the Prophet, verses that sanction and indeed command conversion of the Infidel by armed violence, which historically would be Islam's preferred method. Sura 2.256 was thus abrogated by a later verse, composed after Mohammed had conquered Mecca and was preparing his new Muslim empire for Jihad against the non-Muslim world: "Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush" (Sura 9.5). This "verse of the sword" not only abrogates 2.256, but also abrogates well over a hundred earlier verses that formerly taught peace and tolerance toward non-believers.

    Only the later, abrogating verse now represents authentic Muslim teaching.

    Islam: "Religion of Peace"

    "Those that make war against Allah and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be slain or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter." (Sura 5.33-34)

    "Allah revealed His will to the angels, saying: 'I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!' That was because they defied Allah and His apostle. He that defies Allah and his apostle shall be sternly punished by Allah." (Sura 8.12-13)

    "In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [i.e. non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Sura 8.37)

    "Muster against them [i.e. non-Muslims] all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them who are unknown to you but known to Allah." (Sura 8.60)

    "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal harshly with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." (Sura 9.73)

    "When We resolve to raze a city, We first give warning to those of its people who live in comfort. If they persist in sin, judgement is irrevocably passed, and We destroy it utterly." (Sura 17.16-17)

    "We have destroyed many a sinful nation and replaced them by other men. And when they felt Our Might they took to their heels and fled. They were told: 'Do not run away. Return to your comforts and to your dwellings. You shall be questioned all.' 'Woe betide us, we have done wrong' was their reply. And this they kept repeating until We mowed them down and put out their light." (Sura 21.11-15)

    "When you meet the unbelievers in jihad, chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Sura 47.4)

    "Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Sura 48.29)

    Additional NOTE: What does the term Unbeliever in Islam mean ??
     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    JAP The Verses Of Guru Nanak Book Reviews & Editorials Apr 4, 2016
    SciTech Parallel Universes Breaking News Nov 9, 2012
    USA Man Accused of Brutally Beating Sikh Reverses Plea Breaking News Apr 13, 2011
    Sikhism Sarna's New Muse: 111 Verses of Zafarnama in English Book Reviews & Editorials Jan 17, 2011
    Sikh Coalition US Government Reverses Ban on Sikh Federal Security Officers Wearing Bana Sikh Organisations Oct 24, 2009

  3. muslim

    muslim
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hey correct me if im wrong or is this article from a racialist site?
     
  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    Which site this came from is immaterial.....is the Material WRONG ?? FALSE ??

    MORE than that as a Muslim you should be able to REFUTE the Verses IF they are UNTRUE...are they correctly QUOTED from the Koran or just Made up ?? THAT is the 64 million dollar question.


    I have the Koran with me and I will definitley check whatever you say.

    Looking forward to an answer asap.

    Jarnail Singh
     
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    SAME OLD STORY... remember how the Trotskyies and later Communists were so "tolerant" when they were not in power yet....they even take part in Democratic elections, etc...BUT once they come into POWER...that is the end of all "democracy", "elections" etc.

    HITLER and His party were so "tolerant" in the early years, they took part in "elections"..had peaceful parades, rallies.....BUT once they SEIZED POWER... they eliminated the Communists, the Trade Unions, the Opposition...one by one....and then they fell upon the JEWS for the ultimate solution..GENOCIDE and World War for World Domination.

    This type of "tolerance" is for the WEAK...when they are at an disadvantage..they profess peace/tolerance/mankind/etc etc..all sweet words...but when they attain MAJORITY/POWER..then the TRUE COLOURS emerge...then"elections" become unislamic/agaisnt sharah/allah's laws....non-mulsims become infidels... "TOLERANCE" is just an excuse...it just means we "tolerate" your presence..BUT we would rather you go away or CONVERT and assimilate in us....and this tolerance lasts only until they are weak and need the opposition...not one day after that.

    read the story fo "religious tolerance" in malaysia on another thread on this Forum.

    Jarnail Singh
     
  6. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    62
    "Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clearly from error" (Sura 2.256).

    Just want to comment on two possible interpretations of this quote, please see my additions in brackets:

    1 . "Let there be no compulsion in [choice of] religion; truth stands out clearly from error"

    2 . "Let there be no compulsion [of actions] in [this] religion; truth stands out clearly from error"

    I think number 2 is the correct meaning since it is basically saying do not make nothing compulsary since it is our human nature to do these things which are compulsary anyway. If number 1 was true then Muslims would have to accept the possibility of all religions being paths to GOD.
     
  7. BabbarSher

    BabbarSher
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2004
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    7
    What can I say...? Muslim has not responded.... ??

    It is interesting Gyani Ji that you arrived at the same conclusion that Sir William Muir and a lot of other eminent people and historians arrived at..

    When situation is not favourable, lie low, and be polite and friendly, but one things are favourable, strike with the sword and damn everyone.

    Isnt this attitude the same as radical islamists exhibit in many parts of the world.

    Yesterday I was watching the TV and noticed that a muslim kid from pakistan was being treated by Hindu 'Kaaafir' doctors in Chennai - India.. Really I wonder how muslims who hate Kaafirs can live up to tha fact that a Kaafir doctor treated their kid (Of course doctors only treat, God cures)

    On the same note, a fanatic issued a Fatwa against the pakistani actress Meera, for onscreen kissing a Kaafir. Hmm wonder why they dont issue the same fatwas when a muslim cricketer marries a Kaafir.. or Salman Khan romances a hindu actresses onscreen..

    are we missing something here..?

    If this isnt hypocrisy and double standards, what is ?
     
  8. muslim

    muslim
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    1
    Sorry to disappoint you but i have been busy with work at the moment, but i will be sure to get back to you on this one asap.
     
  9. muslim

    muslim
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ok people lets clear up a few things before we go deeper into this discussion, here is the reply to the whole abrogration idea where a verse nullifies another.

    1. Two different interpretations
    The Glorious Qur’an says in the following verse:

    "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?"
    [Al-Qur’an 2:106]


    A reference to this is also made in chapter 16 verse 101 of Surah Nahl. The Arabic word mentioned is ayat which means ‘signs’ or ‘verses’ and which can also mean ‘revelations’. This verse of the Qur’an can be interpreted in two different ways:

    a. The revelations that are abrogated are those revelations that were revealed before the Qur’an, for example the Torah, the Zaboor and the Injeel.

    Here Allah (swt) says that He does not cause the previous revelations to be forgotten but He substitutes them with something better or similar, indicating that the Torah, the Zaboor and the Injeel were substituted by the Qur’an.

    b. If we consider that the Arabic word ayat in the above verse refers to the verses of the Qur’an, and not previous revelations, then it indicates that none of the verses of the Qur’an are abrogated by Allah but substituted with something better or similar. This means that certain verses of the Qur’an, that were revealed earlier were substituted by verses that were revealed later. I agree with both the interpretations.



    Many Muslims and non-Muslims misunderstand the second interpretation to mean that some of the earlier verses of the Qur’an were abrogated and no longer hold true for us today, as they have been replaced by the later verses of the Qur’an or the abrogating verses. This group of people even wrongly believe that these verses contradict each other.

    Let us analyze a few such examples.

    2. Produce a recital like the Qur’an / 10 Surahs / 1 Surah: Some pagan Arabs alleged that the Qur’an was forged by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Allah (swt) challenges these Arabs in the following verse of Surah Al-Isra:

    "Say: If the whole of Mankind and Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support."
    [Al-Qur’an 17:88]


    Later the challenge was made easy in the following verse of Surah Al-Hud:

    "Or they may say, "He forged it." Say, "Bring ye then ten Surahs forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsover ye can, other than Allah, if ye speak the truth!’."
    [Al-Qur’an 11:13]


    It was made easier in the following verse of Surah Yunus:

    "Or do they say, "He forged it"? Say: "Bring then a Surah like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can, besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!’."
    [Al-Qur’an 10:38]


    Finally in Surah Al-Baqarah, Allah (swt) further simplied the challenge:

    And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah if your (doubts) are true.

    But if ye cannot – and of a surety ye cannot – then fear the Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones – which is prepared for those who reject faith".
    [Al-Qur’an 2:23-24]


    Thus Allah (swt) made the challenges progressively easier. The progressively revealed verses of the Qur’an first challenged the pagans to produce a book like the Qur’an, then challenged them to produce ten Surahs (chapters) like those in the Qur’an, then one Surah and finally it challenges them to produce one Surah somewhat similar (mim mislihi) to the Qur’anic Surahs. This does not mean that the later verses that were revealed i.e. of Surah Baqarah chapter 2 verses 23 and 24 contradict the earlier three verses. Contradiction implies mentioning two things that cannot be possible simultaneously, or cannot take place simultaneously.

    The earlier verses of the Qur’an i.e. the abrogated verses are still the word of God and the information contained in it is true to this day. For instance the challenge to produce a recital like the Qur’an stands to this day. Similarly the challenge to produce ten Surahs and one Surah exactly like the Qur’an also holds true and the last challenge of producing one surah somewhat similar to the Qur’an also holds true. It does not contradict the earlier challenges, but this is the easiest of all the challenges posed by the Qur’an. If the last challenge cannot be fulfilled, the question of anyone fulfilling the other three more difficult challenges does not arise.

    Suppose I speak about a person that he is so dumb, that he would not be able to pass the 10th standard in school. Later I say that he would not be able to pass the 5th standard, and further say that he would not be able to pass even the 1st standard. Finally I say that he is so dull that he would not even be able to pass K.G. i.e. kindergarten. One has to pass kindergarten before one can be admitted to school. What I am stating is that the person is so dull as to be unable to pass even kindergarten. My four statements do not contradict each other, but my last statement i.e. the person would not be able to pass the kindergarten is sufficient to indicate the intelligence of that person. If a person cannot even pass kindergarten, the question of him passing the first standard or 5th or 10th, does not arise.

    3. Gradual prohibition of intoxicants
    Another example of such verses is that related to gradual prohibition of intoxicants. The first revelation of the Qur’an to deal with intoxicants was the following verse from Surah Baqarah:

    "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling say: ‘In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit’."
    [Al-Qur’an 2:219]


    The next verse to be revealed regarding intoxicants is the following verse from Surah Nisa:

    "O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say" [Al-Qur’an 4:43]

    The last verse to be revealed regarding intoxicants was the following verse from Surah Al-Maidah:

    "O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan’s handiwork; eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."
    [Al-Qur’an 5:90]


    The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years. Many reforms that were brought about in the society were gradual. This was to facilitate the adoption of new laws by the people. An abrupt change in society always leads to rebellion and anarchy.

    The prohibition of intoxicants was revealed in three stages. The first revelation only mentioned that in the intoxicants there is great sin and some profit but the sin is greater than the profit. The next revelation prohibited praying in an intoxicated state, indicating that one should not consume intoxicants during the day, since a Muslim has to pray five times a day. This verse does state that when one is not praying at night one is allowed to consume intoxicants. It means one may have or one may not have. The Qur’an does not comment on it. If this verse had mentioned that one is allowed to have intoxicants while not praying then there would have been a contradiction. Allah (swt) chose words appropriately. Finally the total prohibition of intoxicants at all times was revealed in Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 90.

    This clearly indicates that the three verses do not contradict each other. Had they been contradicting, it would not have been possible to follow all the three verses simultaneously. Since a Muslim is expected to follow each and every verse of the Qur’an, only by following the last verse i.e. of Surah Maidah (5:90), he simultaneously agrees and follows the previous two verses.

    Suppose I say that I do not live in Los Angeles. Later I say that I do not live in California. Finally I say, I do not live in the United States of America. This does not imply that these three statements contradict each other. Each statement gives more information than the previous statement. The third statement includes the information contained in the first two statements. Thus, only by saying that I do not live in the United States of America, it is obvious, that I also do not live in California nor New York. Similarly since consuming alcohol is totally prohibited, it is obvious that praying in an intoxicated state is also prohibited and the information that in intoxicants is "great sin and some profit for men; but the sin is greater than profit" also holds true.

    4. Qur’an does not contain any contradictions
    The theory of abrogation does not imply that there is a contradiction in the Qur’an, since it is possible to follow all the verses of the Qur’an at the same time.

    If there is a contradiction in the Qur’an, then it cannot be the word of Allah (swt).

    "Do they not consider the Qur’an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy (contradictions)."

    [Al-Qur’an 4:82]
     
  10. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    62
  11. muslim

    muslim
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    1
    No probs inshallah ill answer those too.
     
  12. muslim

    muslim
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ok here begins my answers to the so called contradictions made in the quran, beginning with no. 4 (dont worry i will get back to no.s1-3)on the list which caramelchocolate so kindly pointed out.

    How long is Allah's day?

    1. Time of Allah is incomparable to earthly time
    The Qur’an says in two verses, (22:47 and 32:5), that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 1,000 years of our reckoning. In another verse (70:4) it says that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 50,000 years of our reckoning.

    These verses generally mean that the time of Allah (swt) is incomparable to the earthly time. The examples given are of one thousand years and fifty thousand years of the earthly time. In other words thousands of years or a very, very long time of the earth a day in the sight of Allah is equal to:

    2. Yaum also means Period

    The Arabic word used in all these three verses is yaum, which, besides meaning a day also means a long period, or an epoch. If you translate the word yaum correctly as ‘period’ there will be no confusion.

    a) The verse from Surah Hajj reads as:

    "Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! but Allah will not fail in His promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning".

    [Al-Qur’an 22:47]

    When the unbelievers asked to hasten the punishment the Qur’an says Allah will not fail in His promise. Verily a period in the sight of Allah is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

    b) The verse from Surah Al-Sajdah says:

    "He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up? To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning".

    [Al-Qur’an 32:5]
    This verse indicates that a period required for all the affairs to go up to Allah (swt), is a thousand years of our reckoning.

    c) A verse from Surah Al-Maarij says:

    "The angels and the spirit ascend unto Him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years".
    [Al-Qur’an 70:4]


    This verse means that the period required for angels and the spirits to ascend unto Allah (swt) is fifty thousand years.

    d) The period for two different acts need not be the same. For example the period required for me to travel to destination ‘A’ say Vashi is one hour and the period required for me to travel to destination ‘B’ i.e. Kashmir is 50 hours. This does not indicate that I am making two contradictory statements.

    Thus the verses of the Qur’an not only do not contradict each other, they are also in perfect harmony with established modern scientific facts.
     
  13. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Das was given a book from RSS called concept of jehhad against {censored word, do not repeat.} in holy Kuran.by K M Talreja.

    as per it ,So when muslims are in minority they say that offensive verses inn holy Kuran were only meant for pagan arabs who were savage for Prophet.

    But when they are in majority the very same Mullah use the same verse to wage a Jeehad all non muslims.Allah only know who is to be belived.

    Anyway say if someone has to be Sikh in Iran or Pakistan they have to come in India and then they convert.They may not go back to their home land or they may be killed.But very same muslims want safety for those who have converted to Islam in nations where Muslims are in minority.

    Even in UK 10% Muslims have left there faith.Yet they can not live in peace as if non Muslim converts to Islam,he celebrate but otherwise there is honour killing or threats.

    Where in holy Kuran this been told to kill a person who forsake Islam and go to other faith ?

    If it is religious duty of Muslim to do it,Then why not hindus kill mulsims in India as Kuran is full of anti Idolatory and thaT is an insult to the religious feeling of majority?(Das here want to say inspite of been anti idolatroy faith.Sikhs have faith that by will of Allah idolator Hindu can get salvation).
     
  14. Gurpreet Kaur

    Gurpreet Kaur
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2004
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    1
    Unfortunately Islaam believes its the only religion and others are all false, this type of intolerant view is not accepted by Sikhs and sums up the original post.
     
  15. muslim

    muslim
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hey i thought it was about the abrogated verses and contradictions (so callled) in the quran?
     
  16. muslim

    muslim
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    1
    Contradiction no. 4 How long did it take to create the heavens and the earth? Answer:

    1. Heavens and the Earth created in Six days

    I do agree that the Qur’an says that the heavens and the earth were created in 6 days i.e. 6 epochs and it is mentioned in

    Surah Al A’raf chapter 7 verse 54
    Surah Yunus chapter 10 verse 3
    Surah Hud chapter 11 verse 7
    Surah Al Furqan chapter 25 verse 59
    Surah Al Sajdah chapter 32 verse 4
    Surah Qaf chapter 50 verse 38
    Surah Al Hadid chapter 57 verse 4


    The verses of the Qur’an which according to you say that the heavens and the earth were created in 8 days are Surah Fussilat chapter 41 verses 9 to 12

    "Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two days? And do ye join equals With him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds;

    He set on the (earth) mountains standing firm, High above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, In four days, in accordance with (the needs of) Those who seek (sustenance)."

    Moreover, He Comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth. "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly. They said: "We do come (Together), in willing obedience."

    So He completed them as seven firmaments in two days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command and We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the decree of (Him) the exalted in might, full of knowledge."
    [Al-Qur’an 41:9-12]


    On the face of it, it seems that these verses of the Qur’an give the initial impression that the heavens and the earth were created in 8 days.

    Allah says in the beginning of this verse that those who exploit this information contained in this passage to raise doubts about its authenticity are equally interested in promulgating blasphemy and denying His unity. Allah is telling us that in course of time, there will emerge unbelievers who will make use of this apparent contradiction.

    2. Summa means moreover

    If you analyse these verses carefully, it speaks about 2 different creations: the earth and the heaven. The earth excluding the mountains was created in 2 days and the mountains were set on the earth standing firm and blessed and measured its sustenance in 4 days. Therefore the earth along with the mountains was created in 6 days according to verse 9 and 10. Verse 11 and 12 says, moreover the heavens were created in 2 days. The Arabic word used in the beginning of verse 11 of Surah Fussilat is summa which means; ‘then’ or ‘moreover’. There are certain Qur’anic translations, which have, used ‘then’ for the word summa which, indicates ‘afterwards’. If ‘then’ is wrongly used for summa then the total of the creation of heaven and earth will be 8 days which will conflict with other verses of the Qur’an which says heavens and earth were created in 6 days and will also conflict with the Big Bang Theory as well as the verse of the Qur’an Surah Al Ambiya chapter 21 verse 30 which says that heavens and the earth were created simultaneously.

    Therefore the correct translation of the word summa in this verse would be ‘moreover’. Abdullah Yusuf Ali has rightly translated the word summa or moreover which clearly gives an indication that while the earth along with the mountains, etc. was created in 6 days simultaneously the heavens were created in 2 days. Therefore the total does not come to 8 days but 6 days.

    If a builder says that he will construct a 10 storey building and surrounding compound wall in 6 months and after completion of his project he gives a more detailed account saying that the basement of the building was built in 2 months and the 10 storeys took 4 months and simultaneously, while the basement and the building was being constructed, he also constructed the surrounding of the building along with the compound wall which took 2 months. Therefore both his first and second descriptions are not contradicting but the second statement gives a more detailed account for the construction.

    3. Heavens and the Earth created simultaneously

    The Qur’an describe the creation of the universe in several places, sometimes it says the heavens and the earth (7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 32:4, 50:38, 57:4) while in other places it says earth and the heaven (49:9-12, 2:29, 20:4) thus further supplementing the verse of Surah Al Ambiya chapter 21 verse 30 which speaks about the Big-Bang and that the heavens and the earth were created simultaneously.

    Similarly in Surah Al-Baqara chapter 2 verse 29

    "It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Then He turned to the heaven and made them into seven firmaments. And of all things He hath perfect knowledge."
    [Al-Qur’an 2:29]


    "It is who has created for you all things on the earth summa simultaneously made the heaven into seven firmaments".

    Here also if you wrongly translate summa as ‘then’ only then would this verse contradict the Big-bang theory and other verses of the Qur’an. Therefore the correct translation of the word summa is ‘moreover’ or ‘simultaneously’.
     
  17. muslim

    muslim
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    1
    Contradiction no. 12. What was man created from?
    Answer:

    1. Man created from sperm and dust
    The Qur’an refers to the lowly beginnings of a human being from a drop of sperm, in several verses including the following verse from Surah Al-Qiyamah:

    "Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)"?
    [Al-Qur’an 75:37]


    The Qur’an also mentions in several places that human beings were created from dust. The following verse makes a reference to the origin of human beings:

    "(Consider) that We created you out of dust".
    [Al-Qur’an 22:5]


    We now know that all the elements present in the human body (i.e. the constituent elements of the human body), are all present in the earth in small or great quantities. This is the scientific explanation for the Qur’anic verse that says that man was created from dust.

    In certain verses, the Qur’an says that man was created from sperm, while in certain other verses it says that man was created from dust. However this is not a contradiction. Contradiction means statements, which are opposite or conflicting and both cannot be true simultaneously.

    2. Man created from water
    In certain places the Qur’an also says that man was created from water. For instance in Surah Al-Furqan it says:

    "It is He Who has created man from water".
    [Al-Qur’an 25:54]


    Science has proved all the three statements to be correct. Man has been created from sperm, dust as well as water.

    3. It is not a Contradiction but a Contradistinction
    Suppose I say that in order to make a cup of tea one needs water. One also needs tea-leaves or tea powder. The two statements are not contradictory since both water and tea leaves are required in order to make a cup of tea. Furthermore if I want sweet tea I can even add sugar.

    Thus there is no contradiction in the Qur’an when it says that man is created from sperm, dust and water. It is not a contradiction but a contradistinction. Contradistinction means speaking about two different concepts on the same subject without conflict. For instance if I say that the man is always truthful and a habitual liar, it is a contradiction, but if I say that a man is always honest, kind and loving, then it is a contradistinction.
     
  18. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    62
    I must say that the Qu'ran, which is supposedly a book for mankind, is very hard to understand even for the average Muslim. Most Muslims just listen to what the scholars say about the Qu'ran and take it as fact.
     
  19. BabbarSher

    BabbarSher
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2004
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    7
    The point is ... either:

    1. we believe in the abrogation of verses

    2. or like muslim points out , since there is no abrogation, we believe in contradiction.

    3. But muslim says their is neither abrogation or contradiction ??

    This is flawed as pointed out in my post and the references to various Suras.It would be best for muslim to explain the the verses which contradict each other as given in my past. He has totally skipped on this part.


    If Quran is very diff. to understand and even schaolars are flawed, we will never be able to arrive at its true meanings. If we cannot arrive at its true meaning, what is its relevance to the common people ?

    Muslim, you should read your own post carefully:

    I would like to draw the members attention to the following extracts from muslims own post:

    The theory of abrogation does not imply that there is a contradiction in the Qur’an, since it is possible to follow all the verses of the Qur’an at the same time.

    "The theory of abrogation does not imply that there is a contradiction in the Qur’an, since it is possible to follow all the verses of the Qur’an at the same time.

    <<I wonder how one follows two self opposing things at the same time. Arent such people supposed to be called opportunists >>

    If there is a contradiction in the Qur’an, then it cannot be the word of Allah (swt).

    "Do they not consider the Qur’an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy (contradictions).""

    "The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years. Many reforms that were brought about in the society were gradual. This was to facilitate the adoption of new laws by the people. An abrupt change in society always leads to rebellion and anarchy.
    "

    Exactly our point..reveal slowly... and reveal when the time is favourbale... change positions from friendliness to enmity ..over a period of time as you gain strength..

    ""None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?""

    Which ever way we may call this, the point is that some Surrah's over ride others or as u put it substitute others. So as of now, killing infidels is what muslims should stand for.. and this is what Quran advocates. Surely killing is a superior verse to the non compulsion one

    also if later surrahs over ride the earlier ones .. because the latter ones are better and the earlier ones inferior, whats the sanctity of the complete volume of Quran as such ??


    I dont find Muslims arguments convincing. He has focussed on replacing the word abrogation, while missing out on the content of the post.
     
  20. muslim

    muslim
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    1
    Babbarsher please refer back to my orignal post on the first page to understand this topic.
     
  21. muslim

    muslim
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    1

Share This Page