Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Judaism Abraham the Monotheist & Sikhi

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by namjiwankaur, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2010
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    431
    Sat Nam _/|\_

    I've been reading about the Prophet Abraham recently. He is known as the spiritual father of Christians, Jews and Muslims. He was a beloved of God because he was a pure monotheist. Though he was not Christian, Jewish or Muslim, he worshiped the One God.

    As I logged on here tonight, I recognized that Guru Granth Sahib is also committed to a pure monotheism. It never occurred to me that way until tonight that Sikhi might be very similar to the original monotheism....a monotheism that was not attached to dogma...it was still free of that baggage.

    I wonder if the gurus are the renewal of that faith. And I wonder if they knew they were doing this or not. Its pretty obvious that they were rejecting ritual over relationship with the Divine. I think as time went on, monotheists complicated worship of God so much that Sikhi is a way to balance it.

    It creates a segment of believers who believe ritual must deepen the love of the Divine, must bring us closer to the Light.

    Please share your reactions to this. :)

    Blessed Be! Be! Be!
    Nam Jiwan
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #1 namjiwankaur, Oct 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2012
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Paurees Suggest a Rather Abrahamic God-figure Questions and Answers Jan 5, 2013
    Existence of Abrahamic God Hard Talk Jul 15, 2011
    Sikhism: Monotheistic or Pantheistic? Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Aug 2, 2007

  3. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Namjiwan Kaur ji,

    My understanding about your message is that
    The concept of Abraham and that of Sikh GuRu appears to be same,both based on some single entity as CREATOR .
    But there is a great difference in the entity itself
    .GOD of Abraham is only ONE and is FORMLESS. Whereas
    GuRu ji is telling about ONE entity as PRABHu which exists for ever with SPECIFIC FORM.

    So considering above context one can see the difference between the two. The difference is in the FORM ONE ENTITY.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. angie

    angie
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    1
    This post is similar to the question that led me to your board today. Does Sikhism believe in the same God as the Prophet Abraham even though it appears above in this thread that the perception of God may be different; God with form or God with no form. If there is just one God, would God not be the same as the Prophet Abraham's God? Would it not just be man's misunderstanding?
    I read elsewhere on the site that Sikhism is not a mixture of Islam and Hindu. However from what I read it felt as though Sikhism was a natural progression to restore proper belief or relationship in God. Would this concept be correct from a Sikh point of view?

    Does the Sikh acknowledge any of the prophets of Judaism and Islam?

    Thank you very much for your help.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112

    There is a distinct difference in GOD of Abraham and The CREATOR of Sikh
    philosophy.
    GOD of Abraham is the reference for Masculine aspect only whereas The CREATOR in Sikh philosophy is the reference for Masculine as well as Feminine aspect too. So there seems to be no mans mis understanding.

    One can find that basic fundamentals of art of living with moral values
    are common in all philosophies of the world. The same can be found in
    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji too.So there appears to be commonness of Sikh principles with any of the sects of the world
    .This is a very unique aspect of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that any one while understanding the messages from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji finds as if this is for him the person may be from
    any sect.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2010
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    431
    Sat Nam _/|\_

    Prakash ji

    In Truth, in Reality, how can there be separate Deity: "God of Abraham" & a Sikh "Creator"? This is a description of belief perhaps, but that is the limitation of human beings to perceive God. There cannot, in Supreme Reality, be any "my God" & "your God". We can't own God with any of our understandings of God because we have not seen God's "Face". We all have a limited view of the Divine Reality, the Unknown Formless Nirankar/Brahman/Neberdjar/Allah/YHWH.

    If the God of Abraham worships the Masculine Aspect (which I will discuss more in a second) and doesn't honor the Feminine Aspect equally, it doesn't mean Abraham's God is a different God. It just means the God of Abraham only honors one aspect of the One and All. Its hard to explain; hope you see what I'm saying, my friend.

    I also want to say that in Judaism, the patriarchal God wasn't part of it for a long time. Even Gnostic Christians honored Sophia the Wise. In Judaism, Shekhinah, Elohim and el-Shaddai can refer to the Sacred Feminine.

    One God = many religions attempting to own Him/Her. Not possible to own God.

    :) Nam Jiwan
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2010
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    431
    _/|\_ Sat Nam

    Angie ji

    Welcome to the board!

    Sikhs are monotheists just as Jews, Christians, Hanifs, Muslims are monotheistic. Yet they all describe God differently. That doesn't make God different since no one can make God be this way or that way. It just means they understand God from various perspectives.

    Sikhs believe God has no hatred and seeks no revenge. This is one way they view God/Ultimate Reality differently.

    Sikhi is not a combination of Hinduism and Islam, but it addresses Muslims and Hindus and challenges them to give up any rituals that are done by rote and do not increase one's faith in God. The Gurus were living in a land filled with Hindus and Muslims so they address Muslims and Hindus more than other religions.

    I think that many, if not most Sikhs, would say that the prophets of other religions are like their gurus, enlightened sages and teachers who were able to shed God's Light into the world. They wouldn't call Jesus God as some Christians do, but I think they would honor the Prophets of all religions.

    The Sikhi religion ultimately teaches that all religions lead to God for the sincerely dedicated and righteous seekers.

    I'm not too knowledgeable on Sikhi so I can be all wrong...or there may be differing opinions. As with most religions, Sikhs have diverse views on things.

    Nam Jiwan :)

     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Namjiwan Kaur ji,
    I refer to some of the contents of your message as
    In Truth, in Reality, how can there be separate Deity: "God of Abraham" & a Sikh "Creator"? This is a description of belief perhaps, but that is the limitation of human beings to perceive God. There cannot, in Supreme Reality, be any "my God" & "your God". We can't own God with any of our understandings of God because we have not seen God's "Face". We all have a limited view of the Divine Reality, the Unknown Formless Nirankar/Brahman/Neberdjar/Allah/YHWH

    There are two important points that need deep considerations.The points are
    1....About seeing the face of GOD

    2...Unknown Formless

    Since the face of Abraham God is unseen and for this reason GOD is to be known as FORMLESS.This is fully agreed.

    If you would have seen in Figure ,would you still refer such Entity as FORMLESS.
    Perhaps not.

    In Sikh Philosophy the reference of the CREATOR is based on the WORD GuROO.and is to be known as GuR.
    This CREATOR as GuR has its NAME as well as FIGURE. Now one should understand that the CREATOR is not FORMLESS but it has Specific FORM.

    I think there is a great confusion in understanding the meaning of the word NIRANKAAR as being FORMLESS.

    Therefore it is very important to understand the real concept of CREATOR in Sikh Philosophy.

    Well if the GOD is actually the reference fo rMasculine as well as Feminine aspect both then I think GOD of Abraham and that of Sikh Philosophy can be equated for THE WORd GuROO only

    But the CREATOR of Sikh Philosophy as GuR still can not be equated with GOD as the word GuR is the reference of a SINGLE ENTITY which is PLURAL NUMBER in character.

    Prakash.S.Bagga


    .
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2010
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    431
    _/|\_ Sat Nam

    Prakash ji

    I see the One can be "like" a hologram of several deities, for example. So when you view it from one spot it looks like "Parvati", when you look at it from another spot it looks "Formless", when you look at it from another spot it looks like "Divine Essence of a bird".

    IE- I revere the Divine Mother. I believe Her "Faces" are as infinite as the Infinite Ocean that is Her Body and from certain perspectives Her Face and the Ocean are both there and not-there at the same time. To the mind, that might be impossible, but to the soul, All is Possible. And I believe She resides in the Father Image as well as the Mother Image.

    Blessed Be,
    Nam Jiwan peacesignkaur
     
  10. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    I think one is required to accept what GuRu is saying.One cant make assumptions just for the sake of equating something common.
    The message of GuRu is very clear about the CREATOR and it has be
    accepted without any assumptions.
    For a true Gursikh the word of GuRu is final
    Such is the concept of Sikhi.

    Prakash.S.Bagga.
     
  11. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    NAMJIWAN KAUR Ji,

    There is very clear concept that Gurbanee is all about the word GuROO-GuR.
    There is no question of consideration for any deities.For a Sikh everything thing
    Guru only.

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
  12. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2010
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    431
    Sat Nam _/|\_

    Prakash ji

    Would you share with me where you find this in Sri Guru Granth Sahib? I think it will help me relate better to your perspective, which I am very interested in understanding. I do understand what you are saying, but I would like to read the parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib that help you know what you are saying?

    Blessings,
    Nam Jiwan mundahug

     
  13. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    NAMJIWAN KAUR Ji,
    This can be very clearly known from the very start of SGGS as
    ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ

    ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥

    Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.




    There is need to understand the intrisic meaning of the SYMBOL along with meaning of
    every word given under the SYMBOL.

    The understanding of true meaning of the SYMBOL itself is of great significance.
    My understanding is as under

    I understand the SYMBOL as the FIGURE of THE CREATOR GuR- being refered as GuR PRASAADi.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #12 prakash.s.bagga, Oct 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  14. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    NAMJIWAN KAUR Ji,

    I think you will appreciate the view that for acquaitance with any thing one
    ie required to know minimum two points about that thing

    1.....The NAME OF THE THING and

    2.....The FIGURE OF THE THING.

    In absence of any one of above you acquaintance with the thing would always remain incomplete.

    Similarly our acquaintanc about CREATOR would be complete and perfect if we know
    THE NAME as well as THE FIGURE of the CREATOR.

    This is the most layman concept of Knowing the CREATOR thru words of Gurbanee.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. bairaagi

    bairaagi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    32
    <SARCASM>
    Never knew
    1. There are multiple one God(s) :D
    2. We can name the one(s) as per our religion. (Hamara wala One God)
    </SARCASM>

    I still don't understand how can we name,define,describe something which is present before origin of cosmic world,space,time,name,definition etc. (the universe as per our understanding) .

    Talibanis have misused this in following ways.
    There is only one God named "*****" and who so ever does not acknowledge this fact is a ***** and must be killed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    This <SARCASM> itself is no way better than Talibani concept.
    One needs to understand what is the message of GuRu in SGGs .
    It is only GuRu defining Name decribibg something present even
    before origin of cosmic world,space,time etc.
    "ADi SACHu JUGADiSACHu,HAI BHi SACHu ,NANAK HOSEE BHi SACHu"

    The above message is from true GuRu only which one is required to understand for the name and description of something which existed before the origin of cosmic world.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
    Expand Collapse
    ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
    Writer SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    5,657
    Just one comment if I may.
    GUR is a clear reference to creator in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as one creator elaborated throughout in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    GURoo has been used in separate contexts all the way from a teacher as well a way to address the GUR or creator in both as the one ultimate as well as the one ultimate teacher.

    Sikhism does not put creator in a box as the creator being part of all is defined through all. There is no person in this world who can define all and there have been all kind of stuff mentioned like waves, elements, energy, etc., but that simply defines limits of our ability to see the infinite.

    Hence Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not define creator and tells us it cannot be defined but suggests that there is one and is in all and everywhere.

    Let me know when someone can put "eternal" in a box as the box you put eternal in won't be eternal. mundahug

    The earth we live on is not eternal, neither the sun, the stars, the galaxy, the universe, and so on. However the truth of all behind it all is eternal and it shall not be known being infinite.

    Sikhism is practical, decent living without the need to encumber one self with endless hypotheses to prove this or that. All is part of one and one is part of all.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: In terms of reference to "Jesus or Christianity" and Mohammad or Islam" I believe we can conclude that Jesus is not mentioned but Islam and Muhammad are. Guru ji's style was generally of respectful reference, dialog, equality where they did not put themselves above any one or below any one nor they did any different to anyone else. Their focus was on our actions in living and teaching was logically driven to speak about the value, non-value of actions as they impact our living in consonance with creation.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #16 Ambarsaria, Oct 29, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  18. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    AMBARSARIA Ji,
    Can you post any quote from Gurbanee to confirm your point of view as

    "Hence Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not define creator and tells us it cannot be defined but suggests that there is one and is in all and everywhere" There is no such mssage
    I have come across.

    This would be a great help for me.

    So far as the concept of Waves is concerned I think one should go thru all messages
    from SGGS ji conaining the word "TARANG" and get the meaning .If any one feels that the meaning of the word "TARANG" is not for WAVE/WAVES then I would feel sorry for such understanding

    One should try to confirm what the line as KAAR in the SYMBOL refers to.This line KAAR
    by all means is the reference for WAVE/WAVES .Generally one finds this line KAAR as slightly curved and continuous but acyually it depicted as a line with several curves in continuity to give the understanding as WAVE/WAVES.

    So Gurbanee is very clearly telling CREATOR and ITS NAAM as being WAVE FORM.

    One may find very hard to accept this fact from Gurbanee.It is always not easy to grasp what has not been refered in earlier references one has been going thru.

    I would always advocate listen and understand yourself what GuRu is saying.
    I never expect any one to immediately believe what is presented by me.
    It is always for confirmation from other end. One may find correct
    or one may reject.
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  19. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
    Expand Collapse
    ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
    Writer SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    5,657
    Prakash.S.Bagga ji my post will include all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji hence will not be posted.

    Brother remember Guru ji is a teacher and not all answers are in any book. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a book of facts, figures, proofs and theories. It is a teacher and book of great wisdom and the supreme teacher for spirituality.

    Show me a teacher that gives all answers and I will show you students who have not learned well. So don't keep looking for answers "all ready made" in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But the book can help you to answer with the best you know and have learned. I have posted based on what I have learned. More importantly you need to live with the learning and not just learn as living is the real purpose of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    You keep looking for symbols, one words, one liners, a shabad/stanza, a bani/composition, etc. That is not the approach that Guru jis or Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us to take. Such an approach naturally leads to what is so found to be all and the rest being redundant. Trust me every word and accent in the book is much well chosen to learn from, enjoy and cherish. I wish you good luck regardless in however you approach this.

    Sat Sri Akal.mundahug

    PS: For learning I find the following very useful and more or less complete place with resources or references to the resources,

    http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=1&fb=0&k=1
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #18 Ambarsaria, Oct 29, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  20. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112

    I fully appreciate your avoidance for being specific to the required Quote.
    I understand the whole of Gurbanee as Gurjot only.
    Many thanks for your response.
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  21. 21khalsa13

    21khalsa13
    Expand Collapse
    HRH
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    18
    sat shri akaal

    could it be that when abraham went up a mountain and meditated he had a conversation with god, but it blew his mind so much that he could only impart some of the key points to his friends and family. maybe he would have had to do it in their language, using contexts from their culture

    when moses went up a mountain, got into the zone, had a conversation with god, but the culture, science, understanding and language had changed. so he explained using the new context

    same with buddha, jesus, mohammed,

    Then Guru Nanak went into the zone - the river of life - had a conversation and explained it, based on the understanding, language, and culture of the times

    but just maybe it is the same conversation with the same supreme being but expressed differently due to differences in language, culture, science progress and understanding. maybe the message was the same,

    explore the word
    believe in the one god

    maybe the ones who want us to be different, more special than others, more right than others, maybe there are sinister forces at work that would benefit from humanity being separate, bickering rather than united under the one god living in grace
     
    • Like Like x 2

Share This Page