A Question To Naam Abhiyassis

[stupidjassi]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

A quick question

According to gurbani
1. In the stomach of Women , a child is performing Naam simran, and hence he is already connected to God.
3. Mind become dead after our death, coz our brain become dead.
4. we do naam simran in this life to emerge with God and to Kill our Mind (Leave Man Mat ) / clean our mind

Now if Mind will dies when we gonna die, so why we Perform Naam simran in before death???

Thanks
stupidjassi

 

[spnadmin]

stupidjassi ji

Fair question. You keep me on my toes at all times. A quick reply -- your question goes to the heart of the "mind-body problem" in philosophy.

This is my untutored understanding..

The mun that dies at the time of physical death is not the sense of mun that dies in nam simran. when we are still alive The mun that dies "while we are still alive" is the consciousness we have of our own "mun". We are conscious of this mun as our personal "mun" and in thinking this way we separate our consciousness from a greater consciousness which is not ours alone. This separation is the source of inner torture and suffering, but also the cause of inflicting pain on others.

Buddhists explain it this way -- there are many individual minds. There is one universal mind or consciousness. When we see the One in the Many and the Many in the One, then we have overcome separation. This is when suffering ends because we at this point gain wisdom and compassion.

 

[stupidjassi]

stupidjassi ji

Fair question. You keep me on my toes at all times.

Thanks for kool comment

The mun that dies at the time of physical death is not the sense of mun that dies in nam simran. when we are still alive The mun that dies "while we are still alive" is the consciousness we have of our own "mun". We are conscious of this mun as our personal "mun" and in thinking this way we separate our consciousness from a greater consciousness which is not ours alone. This separation is the source of inner torture and suffering, but also the cause of inflicting pain on others.

Buddhists explain it this way -- there are many individual minds. There is one universal mind or consciousness. When we see the One in the Many and the Many in the One, then we have overcome separation. This is when suffering ends because we at this point gain wisdom and compassion.

Yeah you are right, Physical Death is not same as Death while Naam simran. But then another question is
-> How mind survive Physical Death of brain ?? ( When there is no brain)

I know my question may be too stupid, but i`m just wondering coz i never got the answer. Gaini sant singh maskeen use to say, " If mind dies when body dies then there is no use of simran coz, you get in reiencration because of MIND. Now when mind dies (Though naam simran or anything) You`ll never get reincreated again coz you have no mind now"

Please enlight me

thanks
stupidjasssi.com

 

[spnadmin]

Stupidjassi ji

No question so far from you has been stupid as far as I am concerned.

The mun that leaves with the physical body is the intellect that is governed in the cortex and the emotions that are governed in the mid and lower brain. The consciousness of OUR PERSONAL mun that we have -- does not die.

When we leave our physical body and our consciousness of mun is trapped in duality, then our death is spiritually painful and we reincarnate to go back over old lessons.

When we leave our physical body and our consciousness has been liberated, then our death is not important to us. And neither is OUR mun important to us because it is the cause of suffering. When mun has died unto itself already, then we already understand that Consciousness does not die.

Apologies. I cannot take it further than this as per my spiritual limitations.

 

[stupidjassi]

Thanks for your post.your explaination is amazing. Yeah that`s wht i hear that death of mind means death of reiencrenation , that`s true .i can`t wait to wake up tommorow at amrit vale for Simran. its also getting better.
I have many other question but i guess i should stop asking question and start getting the answers from my own naam simran experiences.

Thanks much
www.stupidjassi.com

Stupidjassi ji

No question so far from you has been stupid as far as I am concerned.

The mun that leaves with the physical body is the intellect that is governed in the cortex and the emotions that are governed in the mid and lower brain. The consciousness of OUR PERSONAL mun that we have -- does not die.

When we leave our physical body and our consciousness of mun is trapped in duality, then our death is spiritually painful and we reincarnate to go back over old lessons.

When we leave our physical body and our consciousness has been liberated, then our death is not important to us. And neither is OUR mun important to us because it is the cause of suffering. When mun has died unto itself already, then we already understand that Consciousness does not die.

Apologies. I cannot take it further than this as per my spiritual limitations.

 

[Astroboy]

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਕਾ ਭਉ ਗਇਆ ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥
जनम मरण का भउ गइआ भाउ भगति गोपाल ॥
Janam maraṇ kā bẖa­o ga­i­ā bẖā­o bẖagaṯ gopāl.
The fear of death and rebirth is removed by performing loving devotional service to the Lord of the World.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Sikh80]

Dera namjap ji,
It has been stated that mind is made up of five basic elements. Where exactly is the seat of mind?

 

[Sikh80]

In absence of any reply it is fair to presume that the mind also rests in the vicinity of the Lord or in the lord. Mind is all but a sphere of ideas and thoughts and these cannot vanish.What may happen to the mind after death is that some seniors may like to advise with bani's support.

I feel inclined to believe that mind must have something to do with divinity as the brain is a part of body only and has nothing common with the soul. I cannot say much about the mind though it is made up of the five elements and may lead to conclusion that it is a part of the human body. it should not be as a first surmise.
Jassi's question is worth load of thoughts that I am not capable of.
There are many allusions and references to the mind in the Bani and there has to be some answer to this question as well else we are all groping in the dark. We here is suggestive of all who are novice like me and do not understand much about the relationship of mind,intellect and the consciousness.

Reply if you wish.
Regards.

 

[Sikh80]

In absence of any reply it is fair to presume that the mind also rests in the vicinity of the Lord or in the lord. Mind is all but a sphere of ideas and thoughts and these cannot vanish.What may happen to the mind after death is that some seniors may like to advise with bani's support.

I feel inclined to believe that mind must have something to do with divinity as the brain is a part of body only and has nothing common with the soul. I cannot say much about the mind though it is made up of the five elements and may lead to conclusion that it is a part of the human body. it should not be as a first surmise.
Jassi's question is worth load of thoughts that I am not capable of any answer as yet.

There are many allusions and references to the mind in the Bani and there has to be some answer to this question as well else we are all groping in the dark. 'We' here is suggestive of all who are novice like me and do not understand much about the relationship of mind,intellect and the consciousness.

Reply if you wish.
Regards.

 

[pk70]

stupidjassi Quote

Well you may be right in your sense ,that we need prayers for encouragement , but again If you pray for ANYTHING , it doesn`t make any sense ,coz its like you are asking God ' Hey God please do this coz i think you should do this'
Nothing is outside hukum.
Stupidjassi ji

You have written a very good point to practice in relation to HIM and prayer. Only one thing must be requested for from HIM, that is to have ,in reality ,love for HIM blossomed within us, it can prove then all other “asked things” are immaterial.

 

[pk70]

Stupidjassi Qiote ..eah you are right, Physical Death is not same as Death while Naam simran. But then another question is
-> How mind survive Physical Death of brain ?? ( When there is no brain)
I know my question may be too stupid, but i`m just wondering coz i never got the answer. Gaini sant singh maskeen use to say, " If mind dies when body dies then there is no use of simran coz, you get in reiencration because of MIND. Now when mind dies (Though naam simran or anything) You`ll never get reincreated again coz you have no mind now"
Please enlight me


Actually your question is loaded with curiosity based on reason. As per anatomy of the body, mind doesn’t exist at all. There are different compartments in brains that handle reasoning, feelings, control remains in brain depending over force of feelings or reasoning. There is another thing called soul, Gurbani addresses to soul by talking about its journey from one body to another and its separation from the creator. Nam Simran is done for the well being of the soul. In spiritual world, body is just like attire with extra amenities. According that, brain is ********d either for worldly mortal things which just stay here after death or the bodily urges, only soul faces the Creator. For that purpose Nam simran is very essential, who refuse all this, they fail to experience what Blessed ones did.

 

[spnadmin]

One who remains dead while yet alive understands God. He meets that humble being according to the karma of his past actions. || 1 || Listen, O friend — this is how to cross over the terrifying world-ocean. Meet with the Holy, and chant the Lord’s Name || 1 || Pause || There is no other to know, except for the One Lord. So realize that the Supreme Lord God is within each and every heart. || 2 || Whatever He does, accept that as good. Know the value of the beginning and the end. || 3 || Says Nanak, I am a sacrifice to that humble being, within whose heart the Lord dwells. || 4 || 15 || 21 ||

 

[Sikh80]

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਮਨੁ ਮੈਗਲੁ ਸਾਕਤੁ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ॥
The mind of the faithless cynic is like a crazy elephant.

ਬਨ ਖੰਡਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿ ਹੈਰਾਨਾ ॥
It wanders around the forest, distracted by attachment to Maya.

ਇਤ ਉਤ ਜਾਹਿ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਚਾਪੇ ॥
It goes here and there, hounded by death.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਖੋਜਿ ਲਹੈ ਘਰੁ ਆਪੇ ॥੧॥
The Gurmukh seeks, and finds his own home. ||1||

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੈ ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਠਉਰਾ ॥
Without the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the mind finds no place of rest.

ਸਿਮਰਹੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਅਵਰ ਤਿਆਗਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਉਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Remember in meditation the Lord's Name, the most pure and sublime; renounce your bitter egotism. ||1||Pause||

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਉ ਰਹਸੀ ॥
Tell me, how can this stupid mind be rescued?

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਮਝੇ ਜਮ ਕਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਸਹਸੀ ॥
Without understanding, it shall suffer the pains of death.

ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲੈ ॥
The Lord Himself forgives us, and unites us with the True Guru.

ਕਾਲੁ ਕੰਟਕੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਸਚੁ ਪੇਲੈ ॥੨॥
The True Lord conquers and overcomes the tortures of death. ||2||

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਰਮਾ ॥
This mind commits its deeds of karma, and this mind follows the Dharma.

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਤੇ ਜਨਮਾ ॥
This mind is born of the five elements.

ਸਾਕਤੁ ਲੋਭੀ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮੂੜਾ ॥
This foolish mind is *******ed and greedy.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਮਨੁ ਰੂੜਾ ॥੩॥
Chanting the Naam, the mind of the Gurmukh becomes beautiful. ||3||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਨੁ ਅਸਥਾਨੇ ਸੋਈ ॥
The mind of the Gurmukh finds the Lord's home.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥
The Gurmukh comes to know the three worlds.

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਭੋਗੀ ਤਪੁ ਤਾਪੈ ॥
This mind is a Yogi, an enjoyer, a practicer of austerities.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪੈ ॥੪॥
The Gurmukh understands the Lord God Himself. ||4||

ਮਨੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥
This mind is a detached renunciate, forsaking egotism.

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਮਨਸਾ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਲਾਗੀ ॥
Desire and duality afflict each and every heart.

ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇਣੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਖੈ ॥
The Gurmukh drinks in the Lord's sublime essence;

ਦਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮਹਲੀ ਹਰਿ ਪਤਿ ਰਾਖੈ ॥੫॥
at His Door, in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, He preserves his honor. ||5||

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਸੂਰ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਾਮਿ ॥
This mind is the king, the hero of cosmic battles.

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ॥
The mind of the Gurmukh becomes fearless through the Naam.

ਮਾਰੇ ਪੰਚ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਏ ॥
Overpowering and subduing the five passions,

ਹਉਮੈ ਗ੍ਰਾਸਿ ਇਕਤੁ ਥਾਇ ਕੀਏ ॥੬॥
holding ego in its grip, it confines them to one place. ||6||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਾਗ ਸੁਆਦ ਅਨ ਤਿਆਗੇ ॥
The Gurmukh renounces other songs and tastes.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਭਗਤੀ ਜਾਗੇ ॥
The mind of the Gurmukh is awakened to devotion.

ਅਨਹਦ ਸੁਣਿ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥
Hearing the unstruck music of the sound current, this mind contemplates the Shabad, and accepts it.

ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਭਏ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ॥੭॥
Understanding itself, this soul becomes attuned to the Formless Lord. ||7||

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਦਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਸੋਈ ॥
This mind becomes immaculately pure, in the Court and the Home of the Lord.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਉ ਧੁਨਿ ਹੋਈ ॥
The Gurmukh shows his love through loving devotional worship.

ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Night and day, by Guru's Grace, sing the Lord's Praises.

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ॥੮॥
God dwells in each and every heart, since the very beginning of time, and throughout the ages. ||8||

ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇਣਿ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਤਾ ॥
This mind is intoxicated with the sublime essence of the Lord;

ਸਰਬ ਰਸਾਇਣੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਤਾ ॥
The Gurmukh realizes the essence of totality.

ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣ ਨਿਵਾਸਾ ॥
For the sake of devotional worship, he dwells at the Guru's Feet.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਕੇ ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸਾ ॥੯॥੮॥
Nanak is the humble servant of the slave of the Lord's slaves. ||9||8||


With all the regards to all those who have participated in this thread , It is to state that mind has been stated to be made up of five elements. It is ,therefore, subject to death as well. I had an inkling of this though I was not sure. A search has shown that it is also as per the bani the way I have interpreted , may be there is some other meaning in the wider context.

Though the above deals exhaustively with mind yet it states clearly that mind is of five basic elements. The above is taken from ang 415 of SGGS.
Mind is also subject to death, hence it should exist and be within the cycle of life and death and be present within us ;It may be a literal way of interpreting things. It should get rest only when we find the liberation or attain the state of merger.it is a logical flow.

I am subject to correction, of course. It is also believed that the discussion is of academic interest.


It would be a privilege to be guided.

Panch tatva= Five Basic elements

 

[Astroboy]

ਸੁਆਨ ਪੂਛ ਜਿਉ ਭਇਓ ਨ ਸੂਧਉ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਜਤਨੁ ਮੈ ਕੀਨਉ ॥
सुआन पूछ जिउ भइओ न सूधउ बहुतु जतनु मै कीनउ ॥
Su*ān pūcẖẖ ji*o bẖa*i*o na sūḏẖa*o bahuṯ jaṯan mai kīn*o.
Like a dog's tail, which will never straighten out, the mind will not change, no matter how many things are tried.
Guru Teg Bahadur - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Sikh80]

Respected all,

The following shabad has an allusion to mind. Yes namjap ji, we all know that mind is camel like and it is difficult to control.It can be controlled if it is in alignment with the edict of Naam /Simran. It requires a reconciliation. The input provided are meant for thinking or veechar though all that we understand about mind is that it is not to be tamed in any other manner except stated above i.e. Simran.
The colored portion needs dwelling and guidance. The ultimate seat of mind is already defined/stated in this shabad.

Regards
​

Raag Gauree Gwaarayree, Ashtapadees Of Kabeer Jee:​

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
People beg for pleasure, but pain comes instead.

I would rather not beg for that pleasure. ||1||
People are involved in corruption, but still, they hope for pleasure.
How will they find their home in the Sovereign Lord King? ||1||Pause||
Even Shiva and Brahma are afraid of this pleasure,
but I have judged that pleasure to be true. ||2||
Even sages like Sanak and Naarad, and the thousand-headed serpent,
did not see the mind within the body. ||3||

Anyone can search for this mind, O Siblings of Destiny.
When it escapes from the body, where does the mind go? ||4||
By Guru's Grace, Jai Dayv and Naam Dayv
came to know this, through loving devotional worship of the Lord. ||5||
This mind does not come or go.
One whose doubt is dispelled, knows the Truth. ||6||

This mind has no form or outline.
By God's Command it was created; understanding God's Command, it will be absorbed into Him again. ||7||
Does anyone know the secret of this mind?
This mind shall merge into the Lord, the Giver of peace and pleasure. ||8||

There is One Soul, and it pervades all bodies.
Kabeer dwells upon this Mind. ||9||1||36||​

 

[stupidjassi]

Thanks Everyone to take part in this Dicussion and Thanks Sikh80 to bring out this wonderful shabad which tells us a lot of thing.
however i was thinking about this today in Bus. What i made of sense of all the discussion is that:

1. There is a brain which Contain Consciousness .
2. Brain Dies when person die and brain Born with when person born.
3. Mind is mere Consciousness
4. When we Die we take some Consciousness with us , which might travel with our soul when we get reiencrated.
5. In the Next reincarnation , Our Consciousness from past Live(s) is still with us.
a) Then our brain develope with time (From childhood )
b) Our brain need Consciousness , so it attracts Consciousness from our Higher self, the Consciousness we brought from past lives .
( This is the reason why people find big change in their life in their teenage,because before teenage our mind was not so much developed to attract enought Consciousness from past life, It was a fresh mind , but now in age 15-21, we are not only getting new experiences but also Consciousness from our past life. So get moulded according to that.
In some people their Consciousness from past life put effect in their early childhood . They start questioning the existance of universe/humanity from early age,because their Consciousness from past life was this.

In another case if we become animal /birds/insect we`ll never able to attract our Consciousness from our past life, because our brain is not so much developed .


So this is just one of the exaplaination of the Mind-Soul problem. I am not 100% sure about this. Its just what i think , and i wanted to share with you guys..

Thanks
stupidjassi

Respected all,

The following shabad has an allusion to mind. Yes namjap ji, we all know that mind is camel like and it is difficult to control.It can be controlled if it is in alignment with the edict of Naam /Simran. It requires a reconciliation. The input provided are meant for thinking or veechar though all that we understand about mind is that it is not to be tamed in any other manner except stated above i.e. Simran.
The colored portion needs dwelling and guidance. The ultimate seat of mind is already defined/stated in this shabad.

Regards
​

Raag Gauree Gwaarayree, Ashtapadees Of Kabeer Jee:​

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
People beg for pleasure, but pain comes instead.

I would rather not beg for that pleasure. ||1||
People are involved in corruption, but still, they hope for pleasure.
How will they find their home in the Sovereign Lord King? ||1||Pause||
Even Shiva and Brahma are afraid of this pleasure,
but I have judged that pleasure to be true. ||2||
Even sages like Sanak and Naarad, and the thousand-headed serpent,
did not see the mind within the body. ||3||

Anyone can search for this mind, O Siblings of Destiny.
When it escapes from the body, where does the mind go? ||4||
By Guru's Grace, Jai Dayv and Naam Dayv
came to know this, through loving devotional worship of the Lord. ||5||
This mind does not come or go.
One whose doubt is dispelled, knows the Truth. ||6||

This mind has no form or outline.
By God's Command it was created; understanding God's Command, it will be absorbed into Him again. ||7||
Does anyone know the secret of this mind?
This mind shall merge into the Lord, the Giver of peace and pleasure. ||8||

There is One Soul, and it pervades all bodies.
Kabeer dwells upon this Mind. ||9||1||36||​

 

[Sikh80]

Dear jassi ji,

Your logic appears to be in perfect flow.

Yes, as per the understanding of medical experts there is no seat of mind in the body. But mind has been stated to be of five elements only that also constitute our physical body and should ,therefore, be subject to life and death. I do not understand this line of bani.

I have been thinking it over for the last 24 hours and have not slept. I shall try to answer you as and when I am convinced about that I state. Mind should be a part of brain and should be subservient to it. Let us see how the things work out.

Kindly bear with me. In any case no one has even seen one's brain or the bones. All are as ignorant or as knowledgeable as we are.

 

[Sikh80]

I do not expect that aad ji would react to this. she is too busy elsewhere.

 

[spnadmin]

Jios,

I couldn't get onto SPN for almost 24 hours. First chance was only 3 hours ago around 1130 hours -5 GMT my time. This was because of the software upgrades.

There is a lot to read. People posted a lot of things and a lot of Gurbani. It will take me time to digest all of these comments. But I am glad to be back and reading what you are writing.

 

[stupidjassi]

Why dont we all ASk our perfect guru for answer ??? Let`s take Hukumnama from Golden temple ( may 6th) . Let Guru tell us what is the Correct answer.

What do you guys think?
let`s pray for hukumnama