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A homosexual and amrit .......

Discussion in 'Sikh Youth' started by Sarabjeet_Singh, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. Sarabjeet_Singh

    Sarabjeet_Singh
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    Hey Guys , I am Sarabjeet Singh , from Bombay . I am born in a sikh family and I am now 20 year old , going to turn 21 this Dec.
    I am gay :8-:):8-:) and believe me , I have always felt that way .
    I had feelings for guys since I was a kid .
    I think my IP even be banned for saying all this , but anyways just wanted to let you guys know that gays do exist in sikh community , atleast me .

    Can a gay man take amrit ? thanks
     
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  3. Harvir007

    Harvir007
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    ''Marriage in Sikhism is seen as a union of souls. In Sikhism, the soul is seen as genderless, and the outward appearance of human beings (man, woman) is a temporary state. Pro-homosexual marriage advocates point to this fact. Views on homosexuality tend not to be a primary concern in Sikh teachings as the universal goal of a Sikh is to have no hate or animosity to any person, regardless of race, caste, colour, creed, gender, or sexuality.''


    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Sikhism


    Edit: I will admit when I was like 12 or 11 I went through a period were I was unsure of my sexuality, and this lead to all sorts of questions, but in the end I knew I was hetrosexual. But also I'd like to add I have nothing against gay people, you are who you are, but like some 'ignorant' people might bash you but don't let them do that too you, stand up with your head held high. winkingmunda
     
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  4. Archived_Member16

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    What is the Sikh attitude to homosexuality?

    Sexuality in Sikhi relates to the marriage of a man and woman and the sacredness of their singular physical relationship. It is a means to creating a future of children that can live in elevation and mastery. When speaking of homosexuality and even bisexuality, the implication is that the relationship is based on sex. The Sikh way of life is a system of living for achieving harmony of the mind, body and spirit and living in God consciousness. If you are focusing heavily on the physical aspects of your relationships, then you are already out of balance.

    Those who have an issue with sexuality preference should be encouraged to direct their mind away from flirting with their own sexuality. Let it go. When ever these thoughts come up, they should direct their mind to meditate on "WaheGuru". People should be encouraged to develop their capacity as a "God man" rather than a "gay man".

    There is no such thing as same sex marriages in the Sikh Gurdwara.

    RESPECT AND DIGNITY FOR ALL

    Although Sikhism does not find homosexual behaviour acceptable, Sikhism does not "hate" or believe that homosexuals are damned to hell as propagated by some religions. As Sikhs we are taught to have principles (asools). A Sikh does not accept any lifestyle other than the Guru's Way but also prays everyday for "Sarbat da bhalla" (the prosperity of all humanity).

    Gurbani tells us that God is without hatred and animosity. We are all the children of God. The Gurdwara is open for all no matter who they are or what they've done. God loves us all regardless of our thoughts or actions.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਦਇਆ ਸਦਾ ਹੋਇ
    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਇਕੁ ਸੋਇ
    "The True Guru is the Merciful Giver; He is always compassionate.
    The True Guru has no hatred within Him; He beholds the One God everywhere."
    (Ang 302)

    BEING BORN HOMOSEXUAL AND NATURALLY INCLINED?

    Whether homosexual inclinations, tendancies and behaviour are natural or not does not hold any weight when discussing Gurmat (the Guru's teachings). It is possible that urges, inclinations and desires may be natural to some, but in Gurmat a Sikh is not supposed to act upon or follow on all urges of sexual desire/lust (or any other vice).

    ਮਨ ਕਾ ਸੁਭਾਉ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਰੈਕਰਤਾ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਅਨਭੈ ਰਹੈ
    "(In the world) everyone acts according to the inclinations of the mind. (But the one who remembers and meditates on the Lord's name doesn't follow the inclinations of the mind, instead with the blessings of Naam becomes) the image of the Creator Lord and remains in a state free of fear. ||2||"
    (Ang 1167)

    Taking the help of Guru's Shabad, we are supposed to fight the sexual urges.

    ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਾਟੈ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰਮ
    "The Word of the Guru's Shabad eradicates the karma of millions of past actions. ||3||1||"
    (Ang 1195)

    Just because some sexual urge is 'natural', it does not mean that it is good to act upon it or follow it. Some people have incest urges and they too are natural to them. Should they follow those urges or subdue such urges through extensive reflection of Gurbani and Naam Abhiyaas (repetition of the Divine-Name). Some are paedophiles and have such horrific urges. Does it mean that the paedophiles are supposed to follow their urges just because they are 'natural' to them? Gurbani teaches us that urges, inclinations or desires can be subdued through reading, listening, contemplating and understanding the Guru's Shabad, keeping company with the Saadh Sangat (company of the Holy), sewa (selfless service) and Naam Simran (devotional remembrance and meditation of the Lord).

    ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਲੋਭ ਮਦ ਮਤਸਰ ਸਾਧੂ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਖਾਪ
    "Sexual desire, anger, greed, pride and envy are destroyed in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy."
    (Ang 1223)

    SAME-SEX RELATIONSHIPS?

    Having premarital relations with the opposite sex is same as having premarital relations with the same sex - they are both unacceptable in the Sikh faith. They both are the result of Kaam (lust) which a GurSikh must be able to control. Guru Sahib prohibits the Sikh from even gazing at another with the intention of romance, lust, or sexual affection:

    ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰੂਪੁ ਪੇਖੈ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ
    "With your eyes, do not even gaze (in a lustful manner) upon the beauty of another."
    (Sukhmani Sahib, Ang 274)
    ਦੇਖਿ ਪਰਾਈਆਂ ਚੰਗੀਆਂ ਮਾਵਾਂ ਭੈਣਾਂ ਧੀਆਂ ਜਾਣੈ
    "Men should look at the opposite gender as mothers, sisters and daughters, (women should look at the opposite gender as fathers, brothers and sons)."
    (Bhāī Gurdās: Vār 29/ Paurī 11)

    SAME-SEX MARRIAGE

    According to the Sikh Rehit Maryada, the Anand Karaj (Sikh marriage) can only be between a Sikh man and woman only. Sexual relationship can only be between the couple married under the Anand Karaj maryada. Denouncing the practice of same-sex marriages, Jathedar of Akal Takht, issued a directive with the seal of Sri Akaal Takht Sahib that prohibited any Gurdwara in the world to hold such ceremonies. Jathedar Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti described same sex marriages as an ‘anti-Gurmat’ trend that had no place in Sikhism.

    ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਖਾ ਬੰਧਪੁ ਹੈਭਾਈ ਜਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਵੈ
    ਆਪਣੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਭਾਈ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਵੈ
    ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਖੁ ਕਦੇ ਪਾਵੈ ਭਾਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਵੈ
    "He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will. One who walks according to his own will, O Siblings of Destiny, suffers separation from the Lord, and shall be punished. Without the True Guru, peace is never obtained, O Siblings of Destiny; again and again, he regrets and repents. ||1||"
    (Ang 601)

    Guru Sahib gave Sikhs Hukam (Order). Hukam and Rehit (discipline) put boundaries on our behaviour. We all need discipline in life. Some may say why we do you stop people from smoking, you do not believe they are equal to you? But reality is everyone is equal, but as a Gursikhs, we choose a 'Niraala Panth' (a Distinct Path). The 'Niraala panth' is defined by Rehit and Hukam.

    Marriage is two souls merging into one. However even this union which is not based on Kaam (lust), but love, respect and within Gurmat, even that is also temporary. The true Union is between a person and Akaal - this is permanent. When one achieves that union, everything else is put into perspective and is incomparable. Even if a person is naturally homosexual, as one cannot become one, or a person is heterosexual and full of lust (Kaam) or not, and lives as a true disciple of Guru, all of them should search for this 'true union', because without it there is no way to quench their thirst. To obtain this union, one has to forsake all, and live in the discipline of Gurmat Rehit (discipline in accordance to the Guru's Way), and have a longing for the Darshan, Blessed Vision, of Waheguru.

    RESPECT FOR ALL HUMAN BEINGS

    A Sikh of the Guru treats all humanity with dignity and respect. We may not agree with homosexual's lifestyle, and occasional mannerisms, but we could also on a personal level not agree with the lifestyles of 95% of humanity who love to drink, and others smoke, etc. So we should not be hypocrites and judge some and not others. One should strive to appreciate every human as they are on a humanitarian basis and build upon their Jeevan (spiritually disciplined life). A Sikh should share common positive virtues. If someone sees God inside you then one should direct the other person towards Gurbani. The fact is the Amritdhari lifestyle does not allow of homosexuality, and this is not debatable.

    source: http://www.sikhism101.com/node/137

    _______________________________________________________

    RE: YOUR QUESTION - Can a gay man take amrit ?

    We can express our personal opinions here , but I would implore you to approach "FIVE BELOVED ONES" directly or through a intermediary and pose the question to them!
     
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  5. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Just as there is no room in Sikhism for racism, sexism, castism, there is NO room for Homophobia!

    I detest people that make Gay people like this.

    Bani is silent on homosexuality for a reason, because it leaves the decision to individuals.
     
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  6. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    I think that a gay person or a lesbian person can be blessed with Amrit, as long as the person involved keeps all their Khalsa vows.
     
  7. Sarabjeet_Singh

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  8. skeptic.freethinker1

    skeptic.freethinker1 United States
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    @Randip Singh:-

    Well said!
     
    #7 skeptic.freethinker1, Sep 8, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2010
  9. CaramelChocolate

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    Sat Sri Akaal to all,
    I am pleasantly surprised with the positive responses here! I have seen a lot of homophobia in the Sikh community, which is unjustified, whatever one thinks of the 'issue'.
    The Guru Granth Sahib contains verse upon verse criticising heterosexual (straight) lust. Guru Nanak was familiar with homosexuality, he had read the Qu'ran which contains the story of the Prophet Lot, if he felt homosexuality was a sin, then he would have included it in his teachings.
    However, no traditional religious teacher in the past has ever liberated gay people, and hence we are in this position today. We want to belong but there is no real place for us. Scripturally, and in theory, there is a place for gay people in Sikhism. As Harvir pointed out, the soul is genderless, and therefore lust is still lust regardless of gender it is directed too, and marriage is a simple union between two souls.
    Although I have much of the Guru Granth Sahib many times, I am completely disconnected withthe Sikh community. The barrier of my race can be overcome amongst the truly religious, but my sexuality will always be a problem. So in practice, what is being said in this thread, does not play out in reality.
    Sarabjeet I wish you all the best in your journey. There is nothing in the Guru Granth Sahib against being a homosexual.

    Although I am very dubious of their teachings (big emphasis on yoga and the spiritual power of amulets, stones and beads), 3ho are very open towards GLBT individuals, and I believe they have even conducted same-sex anand karaj. You could consider a vacation to a more accepting Sikh community (does not mean you need to accept all of their teachings in your heart), although this may cause family problems. It depends what your priorities are.

    Best of luck. CaramelChocolate
     
  10. CaramelChocolate

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    Also the whole argument that soul_jyot has POSTED (not even their own words) is flawed. It begins the argument based on the idea that homosexuality is based upon sex (it is even written there!). The argument uses lust as a disproval of homosexuality. When Guru Granth Sahib Jee mentions lust, let's see the type of lust that is mentioned:

    ਕਾਮਵੰਤ ਕਾਮੀ ਬਹੁ ਨਾਰੀ ਪਰ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਜੋਹ ਨ ਚੂਕੈ ॥
    The lustful, lecherous man desires many women, and he never stops peeking into the homes of others. - 672
    ਜਗੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਹਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥
    The men of the world are conquered by woman; they love the ladies. - 412
    ਕਾਮੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾਮਨੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ
    and the sexually promiscuous man who loves women and sex, -1164

    Heterosexual lust! There is a common approach thoughtout the Guru Granth Sahib (since, it is poetry), use examples in the world and society to demonstrate to people general rules. When Guru Granth Sahib calls us all brides waiting to be wedded to our true Husband, does that mean God is a male? No, it a is a poetic approach to explain a much deeper theory.

    To use the Rehat Maradya as an example of what the Gurus stood for is a joke. Some good may be there but it was created 200 years after the passing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji (correct me if I am wrong). So therefore it is just a set of opinions rather than fact.


    EDIT: to clarify, I am not criticising those who follow a rehat maradya but I am raising the question regarding the necesscity as the Gurus did not invent them, they often present a narrow view of a Sikh whereas history and scripture tells another story. We have Muslims and Hindus writing in the Guru Granth Sahib, traditionally Sufis performing kirtan in the Gurdwara (with just a topi,not even a rumaal sometimes!) Therefore following a maradya does not mean one will merge with Waheguru, and not following a maradya does not mean one cannot can merge with Waheguru. It's about the relationship one establishes with God.
     
    #9 CaramelChocolate, Sep 9, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2011
  11. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    CaramelChocolate ji (Sounds delicious, but propably fattening!)

    You said:

    There are several Rehat Maryadas floating around. There is the Gurmat Rehat Maryada from Damdami Takhsal, which is more strict and detailed, different Nihung groups have their own and I think 3HO also have theirs. The one followed (at least in theory) by most people calling themselves Sikhs is the Sikhi Rehat Maryada from the SGPC. While none of these is infallible and the SRM, at least, is open to revision, I consider none of them a joke. They are rather like the "Law of the Land" of Sikhi, the rules not directly in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Without some sort of Code of Conduct, Sikhdom would descend into anarchy and the teachings of Guru ji would be even more distorted and possibly lost. Whichever is followed, a Sikh is expected to maintain the highest possible level of morality.

    I myself accept the SRM as the rulebook for my life; my Dad (whose only unjust prejudice, imo, was his nonacceptance of LGBT people) always thought the SRM was sexist and basically a document to placate the British. He was a grand Khalsa Sikh who never accepted it.

    As for lust, whether homosexual or heterosexual, the whole spirit of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj roundly condemns it! Lust is a misuse of our sexuality which (Punjabi culture notwithstanding) is a good gift given us by Akaal Purakh.

    As you say Guru ji is poetry, full of metaphor, not a history book or rulebook like the Bible or the Koran. I think this is most important when reading interpreting what it is teaching us. Individual tuks (lines/verses) can be pulled out to support any point of view. When I read it, I try to set aside my own thoughts and ideas and opinions (ego) and ask myself what the author, whether Guru or Bhagat was trying to convey. This is difficult on several levels, but well worth the effort.

    My best to you and please keep searching for what you need spiritually. It may be Sikhi; it might not. Remember, the key is "truthful living," which Guru Nanak Dev ji teaches us is higher even than truth itself.

    (HEY, where's my signature, guys. It's part of my message.)
     
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    #10 Mai Harinder Kaur, Sep 9, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2010
  12. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    SRM was made by sikh scholars after doing lots of research by Sikh scholars.It is not like someone has written it overnight .Many SRM of 18th century including the one of which were close to Guru gobind singh were also studied.These days people are making sikhism a religion of convenience so they are just picking things which suit them while rejecting Others
     
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  13. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    No offense intended and none taken.

    If you ever meet a real "Khalsa," please let me know. I'd like to meet him/her myself. I usually refer to myself as "an aspiring Khalsa" because I'm well aware I'm far from making it. Amrit gives the title of Khalsa; the actual becoming Khalsa is another matter entirely. Someday...
     
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