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5ks and Sikh Woman

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by drkhalsa, Sep 24, 2004.

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  1. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    I want to clearify one thing that Am I right in saying that 5 ks are both for sikh men and women, And does the kesh means for women to be uncut hair or uncut hair with dastaar I have lived in Punjab for 22 years but I can count number of womens following 5ks on my fingers that I have ever seen. Can you guide me in this regards what our community is doing to rectify it

     
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  3. Arvind

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    5 Ks are for all Singhs and Kaurs.

    One of them is Kesh, i.e. unshorn hair. Dastaar is not a Kakar, but with evolution of Singhs, these became part of the uniform of the Khalsa. Certainly, we can look forward to more discussion about significance of dastaar by learned members here.

    Regards.
     
  4. etinder

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    I agree with arvind here that as far as my knowledge goes there was never a distinction or segregation done on the basis of gender..

    i know from where u are coming from drkhalsa..when its said to keep unshorn hair..that means not just the hairs of the head but all body hairs as said in punjabi keshan te romaan di beadabi..
    but one thing i failed to understand that why women do it,is it to conform to the modern beauty standards that they have to shave or get rid of body hairs et al..
    or some other factors like peer pressure, look and feel good factor ..
    i wud like to know the views of the sangat on this and more from women members..
     
  5. S|kH

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    So, "kesh" is all bodily hairs?

    This debate will never end.

    And before you scrutinize women for shaving, please...please take a look at what they have to go through in the western world. I am not rectifying their reasons to do either thing, but....the same way I look at monays...you need to know why they do it.

    Kesh, to me...has always been head-hair...although I do not shave or cut any other bodily hairs. I wonder what that makes me ?
     
  6. Arvind

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    S|kh ji,

    Kesh kakaar doesnt stand for head hair only. Kesh stand for unshorn hair all over the body.

    Regards.
     
  7. truthseeker

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    waheguru ji ka waheguru ji ki fateh!

    I agree singh ji, "kesh" should mean all bodily hair. This may be a good example: you do not see a Singh with out a daree, or with shaven legs. So why should you see a Kaur? She is just the same, and just because society says that a girl should look or act a certain way, it should not take you away from guru sahib. He is here for ever but trends come and go
     
  8. Arvind

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    yes truthseeker ji, Kesh i.e. unshorn hair all over body applies for Singhs as well as Kaurs. As per Guru ji, Sikh is supposed to respect each pore of body: no be-adbee of any rom anywhere on body.

    Regards.
     
  9. Singhstah

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    keski is kakkar
    so yes women and men are required to keep their hair and dastar

    proof?

    http://tapoban.org/keski.htm

    and

    http://www.mkhalsa.com/lit/keskiconvo.html

    not to mention the book "In search of the true guru" by bhai Rama Singh Ji, i knew him personally and i know he was a mahpurkh who would not lie , and off course another Mahpurkh Bhai Randhir Singh Ji believed the same
     
  10. Arvind

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Welcome Singhstah. As you are missing a vital point in this discussion, it is relevant to look at the following thread where 'Keshki or Kesh' are being discussed: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/the-sikh-way-of-living-in-the-modern-world.810/

    Off-topic: How does one identify a MahaPurakh? Generally people do as others follow them. What is your say regarding this. I suggest that we stay on present topic '5Ks for women', however, you may like to create new thread if you want to reply my query regarding MahaPurakh.

    Thanks.
     
    #9 Arvind, Oct 13, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2015
  11. Tejwant Singh

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    If kesh is all bodily hair then are we being patits by wearing a thick Kara which shaves our wrist hair and if we are fat and our thighs do the natural hair removal threading??

    Just thinking aloud!!


    A true story..

    First and foremost, my Kara is about 1.5" thick and the Simarnah is about 3/4 of an inch. Both on my right wrist.

    I was at Sikh Gurdwara of Los Angeles a few years ago having langar and a famous Hazoori Raagi ( whose name shall not be mentioned) was sitting on my right. He was a bit over weight as most of them are - thanks to our Desi Ghee Karah Prashad-When he saw my right wrist had less hair due to the Kara and Simarnah. He really got offended when he saw my wrists and scolded me for doing BEIDBHI to my roms. I asked him gently about his thighs removing his hair because of over weight, if that was ok. Well he did not finish his langar and left immediately. I felt bad for him leaving his langar half eaten.

    Tejwant
     
  12. Arvind

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Tejwant ji,

    IMHO that there is a huge difference between natural removal and intentional removal. Any intentional rom be-adbee (by whatever way) takes us away from sikhi.

    Back to topic: IMH understanding that 5Ks are valid for women too.

    Regards.
     
  13. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Exactly my point Sevadaar Singh ji. Sikhi is based on Bhavnah- true intentions of a seeker-. However lets play devil's advocate so that we can glance at the other side which becomes a bit darker.

    Gurbani is full of verses which talks about looking after Tun-physical body- before we can start taking care of Mun-mind.

    Tun, mun, dhan sabh somp Guru koh, Hukum maniiei paiiei.
    Only by fine tuning our Body, Soul and Mind we can begin to tread on the sikhi path.

    As we know it has been asked to us to remain physically fit in order to seek ONE TRUE GOD. This is the HUKUM which all of us must follow. Now if we do not look after our body hence our thighs get bigger and they start rubbing each other which makes the hair thread out. So is this based on Bhavnah or is it intentional?

    Now comes another contraversial part. We all know that wearing Kara does shave our wrist hair no matter what its size is. If we do not want this to happen then we should not wear it. Plain and simple. So shall we say Guru Gobind Singh contradicted himself by telling us to keep unshorn bodily hair and in the same token he gave us a symbol to wear which does shave it?

    Which is NOT possible.

    In the both cases mentioned above it is NOT the question of our Bhavnah but it is a result of cause and effect.

    We should have more of these contraversial topics, for NOT to create a sense of righteousness in the writer but to challenge ourselves towards critical thinking. This is a work out for Mun.

    Now coming back to our original topic, symbols created by Guru Gobind Singh ji are not gender based. All seekers have the same Kakaars if they follow the SIKHI PATH. Keeping that in mind we can not change the Kakaar KESH into KESHKI to forward our personal agenda. By doing this we are destroying the gender equality, the foundation stone of Sikhi as we are all very well aware of the fact that only a very few Amritdhari Singhnees wear turbans/keshkis.

    In closing I would l like to say that only by further discussing the matter we may find out that there may be a difference between Roms and Kesh or may be not. But only by interacting we can learn and carry on our Sikhi marg.

    Tejwant
     
  14. Arvind

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Tejwant ji,

    Remember we had a talk about food - In case we get into discussion about veg/non-veg then even inhaling, water drinking may lead to non-veg intake. And as we understand, those are extreme cases. And we ourselves draw a line so as to determine what should be eaten for a living. On the same note, the thigh and kara example seems to be extreme examples to me, though heavy kara is not an extreme example and may be avoided.

    And I agree about playing devil's role or perhaps an outsider's role who has got little information about sikhism, that kind of discussions would lead us in a more inter-active debate, and helps us too in our analyzing approach.

    Thank you.
     
  15. Prabjyot Kaur

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Waheguru ji ka khalsa

    Waheguru ji ki fateh



    Guru Piyareo,

    During the ‘Amrit Sanchaar’ ceremony; males and females are not discriminated in any way. Even some non-traditional sects of the Sikhs are choosing women to be one of the Panj-Piyare, then why this question arose in drkhalsa’s mind?



    Same rehat-maryada and kurehats apply to all Amritdhari singhs and singhnian.



    Now if you would like to discuss each kakkar separately, let us make separate thread for each. Keski for women has been discussed before; it will be nice to see Punjabi women crowned with Turban but there are lot of other vices in our Punjabi Society that we have to get over with first.
     
  16. S|kH

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Can you get evidence for that basis?

    Now, I'll provide you with just a bit of reasoning as to why Kesh could possibly mean only head-hair.

    When Guru Gobind was alive, and the Khalsa was created, he stated that Kesh is one of the 5 Kakkars of Khalsa. He then has poetic references to saying how the turban is the crown of a Singh, and he said something along the lines of "Putting the crown over your kesh". After the statement, Guru Gobind tied a pugh only over his head hair and not the rest of his body. He did not cover or tie any other hair. He asked every sikh male to wear the crown of the Singhs.

    And if people think this is miniscule argument, I ask you this. If Kesh is all hair, than would he not have worn a muslim veil, for Islam was very prevalent during Guru Gobind's time. Llashvari provided a great explanation of just what "Kesh" is defined to be on sikhawareness forums a long time back.

    Anyways, I am not too knowledgeable on this topic, but speaking from experience I can say this :
    For me, if there is a God, I feel that God has made it almost intrinisic in me that Kesh is head-hair. Yes, I do have a beard, that I have nor trimmed or shaved (the rest of family, including brothers/fathers trim/shave), but I feel as if the symbol is only the hair on my head. I feel this is intrinsic, because I could shave, and I would think nothing of it...someone could "bribe" me into shaving...but for head-hair, it could never be done, and I could never live with myself with cut-hair.
    Some may call this societal-conditioning, but I am not sure...I have not found an answer to the problem yet. Its just off experience.

    Most likely its just weakness on my part, because growing up in high school (I just graduated)...keeping a beard was much harder than keeping a turban.

    And if people take the "evolutionary lines" of the 5 K's and claim that the turban is almost essential to Sikh males. Then the 5 K's have also evolved for sikh women and become only head-hair as kesh.
     
  17. S|kH

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Guru Gobind's words are greater than any of those sources. If you wish to study the Khalsa's creation and symbols, go directly to the creator of the Khalsa. There is more than enough evidence and statements by Guru Gobind stating Kesh as the kakkar, and not Keski.

    Please, stick off this propaganda by other "groups/sects" whatever you want to call them.


    EDIT : that 2nd link in the quote is hilarious. Everyone should read it for a good laugh.
     
  18. Arvind

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Dear S|kh ji,

    No, I dont have any.
    Purpose of turban is to crown hair kesh. On the other hand, turban is not meant to be worn for wherever one finds Kesh. Hope you get the difference in these two things. Tying turban for every kesh or veil etc are NOT valid reasoning towards this. Sikhs are required NOT to do any rom be-adbee, that comes out to be all bodily unshorn hair. At the same time, turban is around hair kesh. Guru ji asked all to wear the crown and NO rom be-adbee. Kindly see the difference in these two things.

    I am not intending to force anything on you, but this is what I have learnt till now, and I look forward to learning via Gurumat and saadh sangat.

    Regards.
     
  19. Arvind

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Guru Fateh Kaur ji,

    Nice to see your active presence in the discussion.

    Yes, even I look forward to discussion on each kakaar separately. Its significance. Also would like to extend that - how to explain the meaning to a non-sikh. Relevance and need of that in present times. How good or acceptable are the changes in that. I mean, anything/issue which comes to our mind while working in our professional fields, or saadh sangat, about the kakaar. Such discussion would be really helpful.

    As you might have observed, we are trying to keep the forum member-driven, and had introduced a poll which included a vital thrust area -

    SPN should make efforts to increase women participation in SPN Discussion Forums and but how ? - 13.24%

    This appears to be one of the top priority as a society. I brought forward this point, as you mentioned about existing vices, which take a front seat compared to other issue like turban by women. I request you to throw more light on those things. At least we readers, who come to these forums for learning can make sure, that such things are taken care of in our own lives.

    Best Regards.
     
  20. S|kH

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Hm, see the quote that I was referring to was that Guru Gobind uttered something along the lines of use the crown to cover your kesh, and then covered his *kesh* with the turban.

    You are analyzing his statement that he said use the crown to cover your head kesh...which would be head hair.

    As to what he really did say, I am not sure...hence why im not putting anything into quotes.

    I did not mean that Guru Gobind should have said "cover kesh" and put on a veil...im saying, if he wanted to say, cover ur kesh, and kesh = all hairs, than...would he have not covered more than just his head with the turban?

    Personally, I think we need a Sikh scholar in this discussion for this one. This requires historical detail and accuracy.
     
  21. S|kH

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    Re: 5 ks for women

    Another thing :
    You said the purpose of the turban is to cover the "hair kesh".

    Now, I think Guru Gobind stated that the Singh should cover his kesh with the turban, and proceeded to do so by only covering his head hair. So, the purpose of the turban would have been to cover kesh...which is only upon the head.

    I hope that clears up some of the mess I posted in my post above.
     

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