Confused...

Harman Singh · #1 (**permalink**) 12-Jun-2006, 11:51 AM

Well I know this is my first post here, but I was hoping to get some feedback on some issues. As strong as my faith in sikhi was growing up, I am finding it hard to maintain the same level of devotion to god through strictly faith. I've been through a lot in my life at the young age of 22, and have faced death many times, the latest leaving my facial bones and skull being literally broken almost everywhere. After this last encounter with death I thought my faith would be stronger than ever since i walked away with minor scarring and a couple of facial plate installations... but it isn't. I am currently in medical school (well not as of right now but returning in September) and throughout my life i have kept my hair and cut it 3 times, I feel this urge to discover sikhi but I can't come to terms with myself logically or scientificaly of this being "god" that sits back and watches us dance on stage and lets such cruelty go unpunished in our lives and than cares to judge us on our actions. I've read a lot of theories and the closest I can come to correlating sikhi to scientific proven data is: God is a being of energy that runs through all life, however is not conscious. To be forward I have not meditated in 3 years, and I drink heavily, my character is good but I have my share of bad habits and history. I feel this urge to learn and discover truth but the more i read sicentific theories and papers, the harder i find it to believe in a higher being that can let 200 000 ppl die in tsunami's, let evil men control the masses, stand back without intervention or direct solid evidence of his existence adn than judge us for a cycle of reincarnation. I knwo my post is all over the place but I'm on the verge of breaking here, my mind is split into two right now, the only thing keeping me to believe in this higher being, is when i did do simran it was a unique feeling of clairity, and this constant feeling of destiny. I have had this feeling that I am obligated to do something, a divine work of sort and everything around me is hinting at it and trying to guide me in the right path, but than there is so much driving me away... sorry if this post made no sense, I just needed to vent and get some of this down.

Anoop · #2 (**permalink**) 12-Jun-2006, 15:39 PM

Sat sri akal Harman singh ji,

From what i have read about your life, you dont have to worry. There is no such thing as bad or good in life. It depends if it makes you feel bad, but if you dont feel bad about it then dont worry. We are here on earth to learn things. Do you find sikhism hard? Remember, your faith in god is personal!!! It could be different then others, god lives in you, infact we are all part of the supreme concious god. wE JUST HAVE TO FEEL IT AND FIND IT WITH LOVE. Sometimes it can be hard to follow something that you know will get you somewhere but then again, it might not be suitable for you. Sometimes it will be hard to keep up with everything in sikhism, because there is not enough time for anything, as this world is a modern world. But you can still carry on the best of your ability to reach to god. We are all different, and have different feelings towards god. 'God is personal', its in your heart. Meditation is the best way to carry on.
There is nothing bad in life, call it crime, death or what ever. Why is it that we always want god to stop everything, why dont we see everything being perfect, that is because we want to survive, we want survival, well everyone has some debts with thier soul and other souls have other missions in this earthly world.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/8914-confused.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8914

If everything was just good in life, then how will our soul make progress? Ofcourse there will be problems that we humans cannot face, but sometimes it could be time for others who have died to go back to god, god does this for reasons, there are souls who are working in the spiritual world this moment, everything is NATURAL!, we have to look at it closley!!

What ever happens dont regret in life, and ofcourse it wont matter, stress etc hapens and its natural so dont worry.

Just have faith in god in ur heart, listen to shabad, you need to love god in order to get love back. There is nothing wrong in life.

Well goodluck, and dont worry about anything, as this adventure is just the beginning of the truth. Whatever happens we will alaways be united with god.

max314 · #3 (**permalink**) 13-Jun-2006, 20:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harman Singh

Well I know this is my first post here, but I was hoping to get some feedback on some issues. As strong as my faith in sikhi was growing up, I am finding it hard to maintain the same level of devotion to god through strictly faith. I've been through a lot in my life at the young age of 22, and have faced death many times, the latest leaving my facial bones and skull being literally broken almost everywhere. After this last encounter with death I thought my faith would be stronger than ever since i walked away with minor scarring and a couple of facial plate installations... but it isn't. I am currently in medical school (well not as of right now but returning in September) and throughout my life i have kept my hair and cut it 3 times, I feel this urge to discover sikhi but I can't come to terms with myself logically or scientificaly of this being "god" that sits back and watches us dance on stage and lets such cruelty go unpunished in our lives and than cares to judge us on our actions. I've read a lot of theories and the closest I can come to correlating sikhi to scientific proven data is: God is a being of energy that runs through all life, however is not conscious. To be forward I have not meditated in 3 years, and I drink heavily, my character is good but I have my share of bad habits and history. I feel this urge to learn and discover truth but the more i read sicentific theories and papers, the harder i find it to believe in a higher being that can let 200 000 ppl die in tsunami's, let evil men control the masses, stand back without intervention or direct solid evidence of his existence adn than judge us for a cycle of reincarnation. I knwo my post is all over the place but I'm on the verge of breaking here, my mind is split into two right now, the only thing keeping me to believe in this higher being, is when i did do simran it was a unique feeling of clairity, and this constant feeling of destiny. I have had this feeling that I am obligated to do something, a divine work of sort and everything around me is hinting at it and trying to guide me in the right path, but than there is so much driving me away... sorry if this post made no sense, I just needed to vent and get some of this down.

Hey, man, hope you're doing good at the moment.

You said:

"I've read a lot of theories and the closest I can come to correlating sikhi to scientific proven data is: God is a being of energy that runs through all life, however is not conscious."

According the Mool Mantra:

"There is but one God. He is all that is.
He is the Creator of all things and He is all-pervasive.
He is without fear and without emnity.
He is timeless, unborn and self-existent.
He is the Enlightener
And can be realised by his grace alone.
He was ni the beginning; He was in all ages.
The True One is, was - O Nanak - and shall forever be."

Guru Granth Sahib
Japji, p.1

There is nothing there that suggests a 'conscious' entity. In fact, the Mool Mantra removes God from pretty much every human construct: form, name, emotion, agenda and existence.

Emotion, it would seem, is a human construct. It's a biochemical reaction within the body. They are essentially just survival instincts. 'Fear', for example, is necessary to avert dangerous situations. 'Love' exists in two forms: between a man and a woman, and between a community. The former is a necessity for procreation, and the latter is a derivation of the 'survival by numbers'. It is also important to remember that organisms are programmed to spend their lives avoiding death; the one thing that is the only guarantee in life. As such, believing that there is a 'life beyond life' or an entity beyond death is like a mental sedative to ease the pain that all organisms feel when confronted with death.

What Guru Nanak did was to say that every part of the cosmos is both the alpha and the omega. "Ek Onkar", the concept that the entire universe is ONE. As such, 'life' and 'death', 'love' and 'fear', 'faith' and 'destiny' are wys for the limited human mind to describe and quantify the phenomena it experiences from an undefinable and infinite cosmos.

But just because these things are human constructs, does that make them irrelevent?

Well, no.

The thing is that we may not be sure that these emotions are 'real' in an objective sense, but what we do know is that they 'matter'. If we don't believe in these 'delusions' for the time that we are on Earth, it is possible for us to fall into the Nietzschean nihilistic void. Which tends to lead to insanity.

What Guru Nanak did was to take that 'void' and turn it into the Ultimate Truth, and to ensure that people would life a Virtuous Life while we are here.

Hehe...isn't it funny? Suddenly, issues like 'hair' and 'robes' start to seem so inconsequential

Personally, I think that Guru Nanak had it figured. I also happen to think that many people who think that they are doing as Guru Nanak said...are actually not. They think that by "reading Bani a lot", that they are - by default - coming closer to some indescript 'salvation'. I don't think so.

But that's me.

"One may read for years and for years,
And spend every month of every year in reading only;
And thus read all one's life,
Right up to one's last breath.
Of all things, a contemplative life
Is really what matters;
All else is the fret and fever of egoistic minds."

Guru Granth Sahib
Asa, p.467

Harman Singh · #4 (**permalink**) 13-Jun-2006, 23:14 PM

Wow, thanks Max. That did help a lot. I have a lot amartari, pro revolutionist, very insightful friends, and they tell me the same in a sense. They say read the bani all you want it wont help you with what i seek, but meditation is key if im going to start again anywhere. I guess I have to start soon. But very insightful post, thanks.

drkhalsa · #5 (**permalink**) 13-Jun-2006, 23:22 PM

Quote:

Personally, I think that Guru Nanak had it figured. I also happen to think that many people who think that they are doing as Guru Nanak said...are actually not. They think that by "reading Bani a lot", that they are - by default - coming closer to some indescript 'salvation'. I don't think so.

But that's me.

I would like you elaborate more on this .

As for gurbani I would like to share what my current understanding says:

Gurbani reading/ reciting is used by different people in different way and also it changes as you progress further in lifeand spirtuality ,the types I have observed are :

>Read Gurbani as kind of religious / holy duty and it make them feel secure and really helpful for maintaing sound psychological health
> Some read Gurbani to draw direction in their life which mostly consitutes the moral laws, relation , diets , and all these issue whicj we usually disscus here on forums
>Some read gurbani strong ideation of achieving something worthwhile whether it is materialistic or spirtual and it includes Salvation
>and Some read/Sing gurbani as act of Praise , fulfilment , ecstacy and it could be compared to roller coaster ride which one just take for sake of ejoyment you get nothing to conclude , nothing to learn , nothing to discuss but just enjoy the ride!

But still the important thing is that it is not the person who decided that how he will approach gurbani but the Akal only decided this.

Jatinder Singh

max314 · #6 (**permalink**) 13-Jun-2006, 23:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harman Singh

Wow, thanks Max. That did help a lot. I have a lot amartari, pro revolutionist, very insightful friends, and they tell me the same in a sense. They say read the bani all you want it wont help you with what i seek, but meditation is key if im going to start again anywhere. I guess I have to start soon. But very insightful post, thanks.

My pleasure

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkhalsa

I would like you elaborate more on this.

What specifically would you like me to elaborate on? I think I was pretty clear, but do let me know what it is that needs elaboration.

drkhalsa · #7 (**permalink**) 13-Jun-2006, 23:47 PM

Quote:

What specifically would you like me to elaborate on? I think I was pretty clear, but do let me know what it is that needs elaboration.

Thnks!

If You think it is pretty clear then I dont think any further elaboration is going to help me

Jatinder Singh

max314 · #8 (**permalink**) 14-Jun-2006, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkhalsa

Thnks!

If You think it is pretty clear then I dont think any further elaboration is going to help me

Jatinder Singh

Not a problem - thanks for reading

simpy · #9 (**permalink**) 19-Jun-2006, 19:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max314

According the Mool Mantra:

"There is but one God. He is all that is.
He is the Creator of all things and He is all-pervasive.
He is without fear and without emnity.
He is timeless, unborn and self-existent.
He is the Enlightener
And can be realised by his grace alone.
He was ni the beginning; He was in all ages.
The True One is, was - O Nanak - and shall forever be."
Guru Granth Sahib
Japji, p.1

There is nothing there that suggests a 'conscious' entity. In fact, the Mool Mantra removes God from pretty much every human construct: form, name, emotion, agenda and existence.

Respected Max314 Ji,

i been looking at the translations of Mool Mantra you been referring to, seems like you missed meaning of "SatNaam" and "JAP" altogether. It seems like you are translating it from "Ek Omkar.... to Bhi Sach", but no refference of Satnaam and jap there in your translations. Am i missing something or you are just ignoring that or it is just a copy/paste mistake.

Can you please throw some light on it

. Can you please refer me to the source of these translations as well. I will really appreciate your effort.

Thanks a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkhalsa

Gurbani reading/ reciting is used by different people in different way and also it changes as you progress further in lifeand spirtuality ,the types I have observed are :

>Read Gurbani as kind of religious / holy duty and it make them feel secure and really helpful for maintaing sound psychological health
> Some read Gurbani to draw direction in their life which mostly consitutes the moral laws, relation , diets , and all these issue whicj we usually disscus here on forums
>Some read gurbani strong ideation of achieving something worthwhile whether it is materialistic or spirtual and it includes Salvation
>and Some read/Sing gurbani as act of Praise , fulfilment , ecstacy and it could be compared to roller coaster ride which one just take for sake of ejoyment you get nothing to conclude , nothing to learn , nothing to discuss but just enjoy the ride!

But still the important thing is that it is not the person who decided that how he will approach gurbani but the Akal only decided this.

Jatinder Singh

Respected Veer Jatinder Singh Ji,

You are so right about it, it is all the decision of Akal Purkh.

As it is all Him and Him Alone:
We cannot think apart from Him
We cannot speak apart from Him
We cannot see apart from Him
We cannot hear/listen apart from Him
We do not breathe apart from Him
In fact nothing happens or can happen apart from Him.

Guru Bhala Karey