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Bikramjit Singh Sandhar, The Young Sikh Leader

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bikramjit, leader, sandhar, sikh, sikh leader, sikhism leaders, singh, young, youth sikh leader, youth sikh leaders
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 23-Nov-2009, 02:56 AM
Admin Singh's Avatar Admin Singh Admin Singh is offline
 
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Re: Bikramjit Singh Sandhar, The Young Sikh Leader

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Quote:
Mr. Sandhar responded with a compromise: Tables and chairs would be provided for those who need them and everyone else would use mats.
Practically, sounds fair to me. Let us see how things turn out to be...
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 23-Nov-2009, 03:00 AM
Narayanjot Kaur's Avatar Narayanjot Kaur Narayanjot Kaur is offline
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Re: Bikramjit Singh Sandhar, The Young Sikh Leader

Aman ji

Your are right to point that out. I am being too harsh I know. The question I have about the "youth slates" everywhere is whether they will carry on with the important things like keeping young people more invested in the sangat and making gurmat schools relevant to them. Are these genuine goals? This group is behind the creation of a shelter for battered women. Will they move on with that objective? Or will the sangat become mired in discussions of tables and chairs. Whenever I read of a reformist election -- it also worries me whether the ability of the sangat to find a place for a broad range of practice is going to be tolerated, or whether the sangat will be badly split.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/27971-bikramjit-singh-sandhar-young-sikh-leader.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27971

A note: One tiny little gurdwara near me is probably the most spiritual place I have ever visited. Women and little girls do the kirtan along with men. A woman is one of the assistant granthis. People know one another there and welcome immigrants by embracing them and making the passage much easier. The sangat has such loyalty. The place is not well off because it is small, but the most beautiful space is all around the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. I don't know why I don't go to that one. AND they have tables and chairs.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 23-Nov-2009, 15:01 PM
Randip Singh's Avatar Randip Singh Randip Singh is offline
 
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Question Re: Bikramjit Singh Sandhar, The Young Sikh Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanwardeep Singh View Post
I don't Know the situation Outside India .But for Indian Gurdwara's There should be no table chairs.Reason.

1)Unneccesary wastage of money in Purchasing table and Chairs

2) The Gurdwara's located in rich area's will use it as show off that they have chairs while the other colony Gurdwara's don't have

3)If it will be introduced in India then when one cannot be surprised that 2 langars would go side by side 1 for rich on table chairs and one for poor on floor

And there are many more reasons
Sorry. Strongly disagree.

What a waste of time and effort arguing about tables and chairs. There should be no hukamnama on this.

There are poor Gurudwaras with no Chappati making machines too, should that be banned? I know Harmandhir Sahib has one. Do we need a Hukamnama for that?
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 23-Nov-2009, 15:11 PM
Randip Singh's Avatar Randip Singh Randip Singh is offline
 
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Wink Re: Bikramjit Singh Sandhar, The Young Sikh Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aman Singh View Post

Mr. Sandhar responded with a compromise: Tables and chairs would be provided for those who need them and everyone else would use mats. Practically, sounds fair to me. Let us see how things turn out to be...
I don't understand how this is fair?

Who decides who sits on a chair?
The elderly?
Disables?
Person with sprained knee?
Will there be a chair police?

Every single house I visit in India and UK has chairs and tables. No one I know sits on the floor and eats. Why should a Gurudwara be different?

If they want to go back to basics then they should ban from Gurudwaras other things like:
  • Electric Pakha?
  • Microphones and loudspeaker.
  • Chappatimaking machine.
  • They should ban using taps and draw water from wells
We live in the 21st century. Sitting on the floor is a non issue, just like travelling to the Gurudwara in a petrol car is a non issue.

I really do not have the time of day for people such as Sandhar who do not have the common sense to be leaders and reak of fanaticism. Sorry, end of rant.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 23-Nov-2009, 15:17 PM
Randip Singh's Avatar Randip Singh Randip Singh is offline
 
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Re: Bikramjit Singh Sandhar, The Young Sikh Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur View Post
Aman ji

Your are right to point that out. I am being too harsh I know. The question I have about the "youth slates" everywhere is whether they will carry on with the important things like keeping young people more invested in the sangat and making gurmat schools relevant to them. Are these genuine goals? This group is behind the creation of a shelter for battered women. Will they move on with that objective? Or will the sangat become mired in discussions of tables and chairs. Whenever I read of a reformist election -- it also worries me whether the ability of the sangat to find a place for a broad range of practice is going to be tolerated, or whether the sangat will be badly split.

A note: One tiny little gurdwara near me is probably the most spiritual place I have ever visited. Women and little girls do the kirtan along with men. A woman is one of the assistant granthis. People know one another there and welcome immigrants by embracing them and making the passage much easier. The sangat has such loyalty. The place is not well off because it is small, but the most beautiful space is all around the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. I don't know why I don't go to that one. AND they have tables and chairs.
Exactly!!

We cannot get the basics right yet we are concerned about tables and chairs. Bigger issues are :

1) Gender equality
2) Caste equality
3) Sehajdhari and bringing Mona's into the fold
4) Attacks on Sikhism by Western scholars
5) Attacks on Sikhism by fanatical sects with Sikhism (AKJ, DDT, Namdhari etc)
6) Attacks on Sikhism by quai Sikhs (Radhaoswami, Dhadriawala etc)
7) Conversion of Sikhs to other faiths (especially Christianity)
8) Corruption and SGPC

The list is endless.

Tables and Chairs should be used in order to sit on and decide on these issues.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 28-Nov-2009, 03:14 AM
Mai Harinder Kaur's Avatar Mai Harinder Kaur Mai Harinder Kaur is offline
 
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Re: Bikramjit Singh Sandhar, The Young Sikh Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randip Singh View Post
You know I had this table and chair debate years ago, and basically won the debate that even at a table people were sitting equally, and then some person stated that we should do things how the Guru's did them years ago. So I made a list of things we should ban, in order to incorporate the Guru's time:

  • Patiala style pugh
  • electricity
  • amps
  • gas
  • modern hygenine and cleaning
  • cookers
  • tv's
  • lights
etc etc

The chair issue, is like other issue, caste, meat, sexism etc etc all distractions from the truth. People who are concerned with these trivial issues are ideal candidates for being booted out of the Sikh community.
Something here really gripes me. I guess it's just semantics, but why are those of us who are more traditional referred to as "Conservative" or " Fundamentalist," while those who oppose us are called "Moderates"? It seems to me that they are at the other end of the spectrum and should be called "Liberals" or (I don't know the opposite of "Fundamentalist, somebody please help me here.") BTW, although I am Sikhily conservative, I am politically pretty liberal (with a small "l"), some would even say radical.)

Perhaps I am just an old fuddy-duddy, but I treasure the meaningful customs we have. There is a reason for taking langar while seated on the floor, as already mentioned. Doing things because they were done that way in the days of the Gurus is, IMO, a silly, spurious argument.

The question to ask is: "What is the reason for doing this?" We as Sikhs are progressive in our ways and beliefs, and there are some values and customs that - being specifically, meaningfully Sikh - we should keep. To me, this includes langar on the floor. I don't think there is any meaningful discussion to be had on that subject, however, as Akaal Takht has ruled. I really don't care if women wear jeans to the gurudwara, as long as they do come. I have no problems with the local language being used as a first language at gurudwaras, although Gurbani should remain in the original languages, possibly with translation on a screen, as is often done.

Some values I believe in keeping are the 5 K's and emphasising the importance of Amrit as a goal for each Sikh. To me these are part and parcel of being a Sikh, not "trivial matters." Some issues, such as casteism and sexism, I see as applications of truth, hence they would come under the heading of "Truthful Living."

So, dear randip singh, boot me and my ilk out of the community (I would say Sangat), if you will; hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders (Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise.) I really think you'd miss us.

I also deep believe in the specifically Sikh value of chardi kala.


Remain in chardi kala, brother ji!

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 24-Dec-2009, 18:25 PM
B.Khatra's Avatar B.Khatra B.Khatra is offline
 
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Re: Bikramjit Singh Sandhar, The Young Sikh Leader

No offence to anyone, but you guys have done exactly what Bikramjit Singh was saying is the problem with most of the (canadian) sangat. This thread has been turned into a debate about tables and chairs. Perhaps instead of blindly judging him as a "pendu", look at what it is the man intends to do.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27971

While I don't know Mr. Sandher personally, I can say that after researching his ideas, if it all goes through, he will bring major change to the Surrey Gurdwara. Perhaps the biggest thing is that there will no longer be a "President" and other countless roles(Treasurer, Vice-Treasurer, Jr. Vice-Treasurer, Assistant Vice-Treasurer, Super Vice-Jr. Treasurer etc.). Instead they will divide the board into "task groups" that focus on different issues. Eg. Weddings, Youth, Womens Services, Kirtan, Education etc. We all know that Gurdwara's have been politicized to such an extent that being the President is as high as being a Member of Parliament or MLA. This is a very humble and daring move on his part.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27971

Please see what his party stands for yourself before declaring him as a "fundy" or any other foolish, generalizing term.

Sikh Youth Campaign Guru Nanak Sikh Temple, Surrey, BC
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 24-Dec-2009, 18:37 PM
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Re: Bikramjit Singh Sandhar, The Young Sikh Leader

Your point is well taken, however, Sikhs have voted for a change and the whole Sikh Sangat is curious as to how things turn out to be. And if you would read the later posts, you would realise that this is not just another table-chair thrashing topic.

Welcome to SPN!!

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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 24-Dec-2009, 18:57 PM
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Re: Bikramjit Singh Sandhar, The Young Sikh Leader

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aman Singh View Post
Your point is well taken, however, Sikhs have voted for a change and the whole Sikh Sangat is curious as to how things turn out to be. And if you would read the later posts, you would realise that this is not just another table-chair thrashing topic.

Welcome to SPN!!

Thanks for the welcome! This seems like a great forum, I'm disappointed I didn't find it earlier.

But back to the topic...I did read all the posts in this thread and almost all of them relate to tables/chairs, fundys/modys and all that stuff. It seems most of you agree about the topic but the point is that's immedietely the first thing brought up whenever a Gurdwara politics topic arises.

Really, I hope you all see(no matter what your personal views on the matter are) that tables and chairs have been used by the moderates and fundys as a political tool. The old leaders that have messed up the Gurdwaras make tables and chairs the front and center issue, instead of their shady accounting or the social programs that they intend to introduce.The one thing that I applaud Sandher and his party for is that they did not make the table/chair debate the center of attention in their campaign. They won the support of the sangat by making promises that actually involve legitimate issues and concerns the Sangat should have. Whether Sandher upholds his promises remains to be answered but so far things are looking pretty good.

I think we shouldn't be so quick to judge Sandher without seeing what actually ends up happening(his party won't take over till the New Year). Until then, I will remain optimistic.
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