A Faith Ahead of its Time: The Hypocrisy of Sikhism

Lee · #19 (**permalink**) 10-Nov-2009, 21:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasbirkaleka

Gyani Ji,Gurfateh.I absolutely agree with everything that you have written.It was very wrong on my part to use the term 'helpful'.Bieng a Sikh,how can I ever question or even doubt any act of our great Gurus.I,being a simple farmer,could not express my views in the right perspective.

I for one saw nothing wrong with your words. It is of course fine to question what Guru ji did, or even to question the motives of their actions, it is fine to say for example, It would have been helpfull if some of our Guru's married outside of their castes.

Of course we can ask, question, and say these things.

I think that Jasbirkaleka ji meant no malice and merley let his mouth speak what his mind was thinking.

Furthermore he is correct, if one of our beloved Guru's did such a thing then it would have been the death of castism in Sikhi.

Now having said all of this, am I being disrespectfull to Guru ji? I think not, can we not ask and question without being accused of disrespect?

I do not know why Guru ji did not perform such an act, that is not for me to know, but I know no Gurmukhs, we are all Manmukh and so we do not understand, it is quite normal then, and correct to question what we do not understand. Or are we to be unthinking?

Randip Singh · #20 (**permalink**) 10-Nov-2009, 22:42 PM

Hi Friend,

A starting point would be to ask what your understanding of Sikhism is.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/27445-faith-ahead-its-time-hypocrisy-sikhism.html

OK, lets start with, what is your understanding of God in Sikhism?

1) Beardy man in sky?
2)Woman in sky?
3) Something else?

Randip Singh · #21 (**permalink**) 10-Nov-2009, 22:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasbirkaleka

Sukmmen, you are absolutely right and I see no contradiction in being an athiest and being a Sikh who followes the teachings of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh ji It is very true that a large percent of Sokhs. especially the Jats, believe in caste ism.With no intention of seeming disrespectful,I sometimes feel that it would have been very helpfull if some of our great Sikh Gurus had married out of their caste.

If they had, then people would say, "Oh, they only married into such and such castes, therefore, all castes apart from these castes are taboo". The Punjabi mentality is ridiculous.

Lee · #22 (**permalink**) 10-Nov-2009, 22:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randip Singh

Hi Friend,

A starting point would be to ask what your understanding of Sikhism is.

OK, lets start with, what is your understanding of God in Sikhism?

1) Beardy man in sky?
2)Woman in sky?
3) Something else?

Randip Ji,

Was this addressed to me?

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #23 (**permalink**) 11-Nov-2009, 07:20 AM

sukhmen ji..havent you ever heard the saying..a "robin/sparrow..doesnt make the SUMMER.
SIKHS are NOT SIKHISM/GURMATT. A few bad apples..a few "bad" caste ridden Sikhs DONT make up Sikhism/Gurmatt in Totality.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27445

My 4 year old child said...America has a PRISON POPULATION of a few MILLION..out of 200 million Americans..can we then name USA.. Democracy Ahead of its time..A Nation of CRIMINALS...?? The Criminals DONT represent USA Democracy..simialrly the casteist sikhs DONT represent SIKHISM. Period.

sukhmen · #24 (**permalink**) 11-Nov-2009, 10:44 AM

I would like to apologize if it seems like I was/am accusing the whole Sikh community of exercising the cast system - that was not at all what I had tried to get across.
It probably seemed as though, and was reflected in my tone because this topic seems to be disregarded a whole lot.
What I was trying to get across was, those Sikhs that seem to exercise the caste system (which seemed like an awful lot to me being that almost every single Sikh
I've met in my life agreed on at least one thing - their sons or daughters marrying into the same caste only)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27445
After interviewing elders in which I was supposed to look upon, and hearing their responses to simple questions such as:
"Do you understand that Sikhism prohibits the use of the caste system?"
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27445
Their replies would beat around the bush and I would get replies such as:
"In the Gurdwara, yes" or that they were more worried about what their Sikh community would say.

Satyaban · #25 (**permalink**) 11-Nov-2009, 10:45 AM

Namaste
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27445

I am not a Sikh but caste means absolutely nothing to me. Whats more I really have no understanding of it except some understanding of varna. I am a romantic sort and if I loved someone their origins would make no difference to me.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27445

BTW in America we have a disproportionate number of people in prison, because of our drug laws, but our population is more like 300 million.

Peace
Satyaban

harbansj24 · #26 (**permalink**) 11-Nov-2009, 12:54 PM

Satyaban ji,

I am reproducing an exchange between Kanwardeep Singh ji and myself that took place a few days back

By Kanwardeep Singh ji

Quote:

Re: Dalits enter TN temple first time in 100 yrs

Isn't it strange that these people are still Hindu's despite so much discrimination by upper caste .While Lower caste sikhs leave sikhism and become Ravidasi's or Dera follower because they are not treated equally

By myself

Quote:

Kanwardeep ji,

There is a difference. Sikhism professes no discrimination based on caste but it is practiced rampantly especially in Punjab. This is hypocrisy.

Whereas in Hinduism it is declared that caste is the basis of differentiation. In such circumstances to have got the right of entry is an achievement

By Kanwardeep Singh ji

Quote:

Harbans ji
You can Go to any Hindu forum and ask this question and All the people will say that Caste is Not birth based in Hinduism.So present day Hindu scholars
especially the urban one don't agree with it.

On another point I agree with you that caste based discrimination is condemned Sikhism but again sikhs are Human too and It is Human nature to
prove their superiority on others.The case is quite similar to muslims who preach islamic brotherhood but we all know that how Arabs beleive they are superior in Muslims.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #27 (**permalink**) 11-Nov-2009, 16:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasbirkaleka

Gyani Ji,Gurfateh.I absolutely agree with everything that you have written.It was very wrong on my part to use the term 'helpful'.Bieng a Sikh,how can I ever question or even doubt any act of our great Gurus.I,being a simple farmer,could not express my views in the right perspective.

Jasbir Ji,

You have not said anything wrong..per se...and i have not corrected your wrong in any way...i read your post very attentively and you have expressed it well.

What I am trying to stress is and also Tejwant ji has put across even more clearly si that SIKHI/GURMATT is IDEA BASED. Our GURU..is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...and this is for ALL. What could be better. ANY ONE..irrespective of his caste/status/creed/ whatever can take Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji home, read , vichaar, LOVE it in any way he/she likes...its the IDEAS inside that are GURU. Precisely to GET RID of HUMANS as GURUS..when the time was right..the GURUS immediately passed the Gurgadee to the Shanad Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which is INFALLIBLE ian any and all situations in which humans can "fail" or be seen to "fail" (like some today are pointing fingers at the human Gurus for not marrying other castes ?? Which caste is right ??

Guru Nanak ji walked all over the world preaching by EXAMPLE..LOVE..how many Sikhs have followed that ?? Guru Gobind Singh Ji sacrificed his father, mother, FOUR sons...how many Siksh have done likewise ?? Its so EASY to talk..and many do...But the wise ones among us...LOVE the TRUE GURU Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and FOLLOW what it SAYS...if we fail to do that we are failures.

Thank you for a beautiful reply.