Hair and General Sikh Philosophy Study

Archived_Member4 · #**101** (**permalink**) 12-Sep-2008, 04:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singh [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME~1/HP_ADM~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
The shabad is only talking about hair when one is completely in love with the Lord and before that people are just using the shabad to say hair is not required in Sikhi because of this shabad. And in this shabad there is only one line that talks about hair rest is about duality and love for the Lord.

'Singh ji!! The shabad is only two lines!!!'

Yes only two lines that you bring up but the whole shabad is more than this. The lines that are above and below it finishes the shabad and the person gets the understanding. Just looking at those two lines misleads a person like you have been mislead; so focused on that one line about hair and trying to prove hair can be cut and forgot to look one line up. Did it ever come to mind to ask yourself has duality and alienation departed from my body and mind? Am I only in love with the Lord or do I still have that duality in my life that from time to time enters me and the lords naam is forgotten even for a millisecond?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singh [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME~1/HP_ADM~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/22759-hair-and-general-sikh-philosophy-study.html
Either way the shabad does not say keep hair or cut hair.

"You may have long hair or you may shave your head bald" ?? That doesn't tell you that you can have cut or uncut hair?

Read what I wrote above it examples this one line that you cannot understand alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singh [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME~1/HP_ADM~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
'There is no need to take the idea of one jyote and use/misuse this idea to claim that there is a universal mandate among all the Gurus to keep hair'

This is not an idea it is a fact because once again the Shabad Guru tells us it is a fact.

Please provide quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that back up your "facts".

I hope this will clear things up for Bhagat ji and Aad ji.

THIRD MEHL: There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate. True is the merchandise, and true is the shop; the warehouses are overflowing with jewels. By
Guru.s Grace, they are obtained, if the Great Giver gives them. Dealing in this true merchandise, one earns the profit of the incomparable Naam. In the midst of poison, the Ambrosial Nectar is revealed; by His Mercy, one drinks it in. O Nanak, praise the True Lord; blessed is the Creator, the Embellisher. || 2 || PAUREE: Those who are permeated by falsehood, do not love the Truth. If someone speaks the Truth, falsehood is burnt away. The false are satisfied by falsehood, like the crows who eat manure. When the Lord grants His Grace, then one meditates on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. As Gurmukh, worship the
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22759
Lord.s Name in adoration; fraud and sin shall disappear. || 10 || ang 646

‘Guru Gobind Singh ji started this discipline he called "Khalsa". He intiated people into this discipline so they could fight oppression!
But Gur Gobind SIngh was smart, what he did was make the Amrit ceremony a ritual (yes a ritual)! This attracted quite a number of people as it seemed very magical to them (and still does). And all Guru Gobind Singh ji really had to do was say was that the water in the bowl would make one(who drinks it) fight millions! And voila!!! We have 21 vs 1000, 40 vs 10000, 2 vs 800 and so on! What power of this simple water and his rebelious discipline!!! It fascinating but it is not to be confused with Sikhism! Well, that's my take on it.’

Thank you for your opinion Bhagat ji. Your opinion clearly shows you do not understand how the Amrit ceremony works and how it is done. But thank you for your opinion I had a fun time reading the fairy tale theories you come up with.

Quote:
Now you tell me which Guru did not say keep hair; keep in mind Ika Bani Ik Gur Iko Shabad Vichaar.

The other 9, even Guru Gobind Singh said keep hair, only to those who were in his new discipline.
About that sentence, please post the whole shabad.

Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji made two orders that day one for the Sikh and the other for the Khalsa. The one for the Sikh said Hukam: A Sikh must keep hair and not smoke tobacco. A Sikh must not have sexual relationship outside the marital bond and cannot eat the flesh of an animal killed slowly in the Muslim way or in any sacrificial ceremony.

Quote:
So how can you say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji never said a Sikh must keep hair?

'After showing you that shabad by Kabeer ji, I think it's quite obvious how we can say "Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji never said a Sikh must keep hair"'

Read that shabad over and over and over and over and over again until you actually read, understand and apply the first line of the shabad that you presented, here is the line again.

Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.

And please don’t tell me to read the shabad over and over again for I understand duality has not departed from me and know this shabad will be speaking to me only when duality and alienation do depart.

Quote:
Because all the Gurus have one jot living in them; there is no difference from any Guru. Please tell us how many jots existed in all the Gurus?

'Ya buddy we all have one jyot in us! Your jyot is no different than the jyot of the Gurus.
Well the Gurus were all different individuals so 10 individual jyots, and one Main Jyot AKA God.'

This is what you think my friend. Please present Gurbani that explains this to back up your claim.

Quote:
Present these facts because Guru Gobind Singh ji gave a hukam to the sikhs and the same hukam went to the Khalsa about keep hair uncut and also Guru Gobind Singh Sahib was intaited in the Khalsa by the Panj Pyare, Which would mean Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji would have to keep his hair and not cut or trim it.

Ok Guru Gobind Singh ji would have definitely started to keep hair when he got intiated. But that doesn't mean he didn't cut his hair before. And it definitely doesn't mean the other Gurus had uncut hair.

Bhagat ji prove it with facts that Guru ji had an hair cut before he created the Khalsa.

Quote:
'This is the same Guru whose did not include his bani in the (Guru Granth Sahib)Adi Granth even when he had the opportunity to do so. '

What do you mean by this, please explain.

She means the so called "Dasam Granth" was not added to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and neither were any of the "rehitnamas".

Aad ji can speak for herself. I would like to hear her take on what she wrote.

Narayanjot Kaur · #**102** (**permalink**) 12-Sep-2008, 06:31 AM

Singhji,

Try again!

I hope this will clear things up for Bhagat ji and Aad ji.

THIRD MEHL: There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate. True is the merchandise, and true is the shop; the warehouses are overflowing with jewels. By
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22759
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22759
Guru.s Grace, they are obtained, if the Great Giver gives them. Dealing in this true merchandise, one earns the profit of the incomparable Naam. In the midst of poison, the Ambrosial Nectar is revealed; by His Mercy, one drinks it in. O Nanak, praise the True Lord; blessed is the Creator, the Embellisher. || 2 || PAUREE: Those who are permeated by falsehood, do not love the Truth. If someone speaks the Truth, falsehood is burnt away. The false are satisfied by falsehood, like the crows who eat manure. When the Lord grants His Grace, then one meditates on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. As Gurmukh, worship the
Lord.s Name in adoration; fraud and sin shall disappear. || 10 || ang 646

This shabad has nothing to do with keeping kesh.

Archived_Member4 · #**103** (**permalink**) 12-Sep-2008, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aad0002

Singhji,

Try again!

I hope this will clear things up for Bhagat ji and Aad ji.

THIRD MEHL: There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate. True is the merchandise, and true is the shop; the warehouses are overflowing with jewels. By
Guru.s Grace, they are obtained, if the Great Giver gives them. Dealing in this true merchandise, one earns the profit of the incomparable Naam. In the midst of poison, the Ambrosial Nectar is revealed; by His Mercy, one drinks it in. O Nanak, praise the True Lord; blessed is the Creator, the Embellisher. || 2 || PAUREE: Those who are permeated by falsehood, do not love the Truth. If someone speaks the Truth, falsehood is burnt away. The false are satisfied by falsehood, like the crows who eat manure. When the Lord grants His Grace, then one meditates on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. As Gurmukh, worship the
Lord.s Name in adoration; fraud and sin shall disappear. || 10 || ang 646

This shabad has nothing to do with keeping kesh.

Who said it does have something to do with hair. This shabad is proving that there was/is only one jot in all the Gurus.

Narayanjot Kaur · #**104** (**permalink**) 12-Sep-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22759
'This is the same Guru whose did not include his bani in the (Guru Granth Sahib) (Guru Granth Sahib)Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib) even when he had the opportunity to do so. '

What do you mean by this, please explain.

She means the so called "Dasam Granth" was not added to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and neither were any of the "rehitnamas".

Aad ji can speak for herself. I would like to hear her take on what she wrote.

Yes I was referring to the Dasam Granth, which was not added to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, and neither were the rehitnamas.

As for speaking for myself, my take on what I wrote: It is very difficult for me to believe that any of the Gurus were less than completely wise and compassionate about the suffering that enveloped those around them. Each one, each enlightened one, an embodiment of the same jyote, then would see God within each and every person. Each Guru would also understand how each individual was at his/her own place on the path to inner awareness of Waheguru. None of them, including Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj, would cast anyone aside, even a Turk or Mughal, who had sincerely embraced the "dharma." Sometimes our Gurus even took pains to encounter, teach and spiritually embrace their enemy. We know this to be historically true of the 1rst Guru and 10th Guru. So why would anyone of them cast aside someone who trimmed his beard or his hair?

Sri Guru Gobind Singh declared that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji was the last and everlasting Satguru. The same Gobind Singh Dev ji did not include his Bani in the Adi Granth. What does that tell you?

I don't want to get lost on a tangent about his perfect humility -- someone is going to say that a great warrior, political leader and poet could not be humble. His actions tell me he was humble. His understanding of the concept of a just war tells me he was dispassionate and put principle above appearances. His resolve in the face of sacrifice - first of the gruesome martyrdom of his father and then of his children and his mother - tell me that his face was always turned toward God. In other words, the Guru was always larger than the pettiness of life.

So now -- you did not answer my other questions Singh veerji. But here are two more. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Dev ji -- described above -- why do you think he "valued" keeping kesh (actually this rehat was formulated by someone else, a close associate) -- but why? Was it because God lives in every hair? Or, was it for a completely different reason?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22759

Narayanjot Kaur · #**105** (**permalink**) 12-Sep-2008, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singh

Who said it does have something to do with hair. This shabad is proving that there was/is only one jot in all the Gurus.

The thread is about Hair. Nobody was arguing about one jyote in all the Gurus. How did you make the diagnosis that we were confused about that?

Archived_Member4 · #**106** (**permalink**) 12-Sep-2008, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aad0002

The thread is about Hair. Nobody was arguing about one jyote in all the Gurus. How did you make the diagnosis that we were confused about that?

The shabad proves that there is only one jot in all the Gurus.(the jot meaning God himself was/is present in them and only one soul that was/is in Guru Nanak Dev ji to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.) Meaning Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam for all his Sikh, was/is must keep hair uncut and same goes for all the other Gurus. Then this means all the Gurus must have kept there hair uncut and have the same Hukam none different from Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's. They adviced there Sikhs to keep it uncut and also kept it uncut themselves.

Sinister · #**107** (**permalink**) 12-Sep-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeetijohal

In an uncertain world and turbulent life, man seeks stability and enlightenment to make sense of the complexities, mysteries and confusion prevalent in his life and the world. Tradition and culture came into being. A set doctrine for all to follow in societies and social circles. This sets our societal expectations of each member of the religion or race and all abide by the laid down statutes.

The maintaining of tresses is traditional in all cultures especially amongst women. The cutting of hair was the mark of a woman set apart or fallen from grace. With transmigration and multiculturalism we strive to hold onto to a fine and noble culture that breeds wise and strong sons and daughters. In witnessing western nations and races shedding all, tradition and social mores in pursuit of emancipation or in the cause of freedom, we find they have gained nothing, rather have increased in moral fibre, and character. High rates of disease and dysfunction are symptoms of a lack and absence of culture and pastoral guidance.

The cutting of hair is not life threatening, but it poses a major change from the path determined by the Guru’s. On foreign shores and in distant lands all strive to assimilate into the traditions of the host nation and maintain the inherent doctrine. Alas the western nations bemoan a lack of identity in the false cause of globalisation. It then becomes a matter of nurturing and indoctrination. Some are blessed with offspring who heed parental advice and others less so.

Cutting hair is not in any way essential, although girls living in these times prefer easy maintenance and being part of the society they live within, this is a poor excuse. Integration into a workplace culture and adopting customary dress and hair fashion at home and amongst family seems the favoured approach.

A critique:

Freedom brings with it the burden of voluntary association; identity is only missing in those who chose not to make one. It is usually missing, in those who enjoy discussing how salsa is overtaking ketchup as the number-one national condiment. But authentic identity is also missing in people who blindly fall victim to legalism.

The inevitable formation of ‘social contracts’ holds together the “state of nature” between men, albeit at times, it is unpleasant, but it is necessary. The larger and more encompassing the social contract… the weaker it is in creating its own self-identity…nevertheless the larger the social contract the more diversity it attracts, the larger the collective conscious, the more peace/culture we share. Promoting cultural homogeny for the argument that it creates identity is man's greatest transgression against culture. (the greatest threat)

On a lighter note, I sternly believe that resolve, a force that creates the ‘human spirit’, naturally yearns to celebrate diversity and promote acceptance. Despite the stockpiles of evidence to the contrary (as being discussed on this page), what is often overlooked is the manner in which culture diverges to create variety and separate collective consciousness/identity with relative tolerance. In an artistic and endless process cultural diversity continues its march and expansion (around the world).

Let us not forget, that it is freedom that produces men of substance and it is freedom that produces men of disgust. By accepting this freedom humanity can live by conviction rather than indoctrination (the authentic life with authentic identity). It is through this freedom (or illusion of freedom, as some would say) we live happier today…take it or fill freedom with negative connotations…you do so at the peril of effecting the natural order in which humanity resides.

The constant pessimist beats at the door and tells us that culture and tradition are no more with globalization…an antiquated and well professed belief from the majority of non-evolutionary thinkers that will have you believe that culture was not designed to be warped, destroyed and rebuilt. (these conservative attitudes ferment the belief that humanity has learnt all its lessons in the past, which prevents them to denote any relevance or importance to the future. They become hopeless nihilists as their faith in existentialist values diminishes.)

They may disengage
They may retreat to asceticism.
They may grow their hair, they may shave it
However, they always start replacing the word ‘innocence’ with ‘ignorance’; to feed their own egos.

PS: I refuse this pessimism

Narayanjot Kaur · #**108** (**permalink**) 12-Sep-2008, 08:31 AM

Singh veerji

The jyot isn't 3 dimensional. Hair is 3 dimensional. Jyot doesn't occupy space and time. Hair does occupy space and time. Jyot isn't maya. Hair is maya. Your answer surprises me.

Archived_Member4 · #**109** (**permalink**) 12-Sep-2008, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aad0002

Singh veerji

The jyot isn't 3 dimensional. Hair is 3 dimensional. Jyot doesn't occupy space and time. Hair does occupy space and time. Jyot isn't maya. Hair is maya. Your answer surprises me.

Hair is not maya, you, yourself make it maya.

Huck_Finn · #**110** (**permalink**) 12-Sep-2008, 09:57 AM

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Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22759

Singh ji

what an answer !!!

are my nails MAYA?