Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguu Ji Ki Fateh
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

I read your article with great interest yesterday and I thought about posting a reply. It has served to firm up my belief even further.
Just for background - My family and I are all vegetarian and would never consider anything different. We are a simple Sikh family and do not follow any kind of Sikh or other movement or sect as you may call it.
I hope you don’t mind, but I humbly submit my personal comments concerning your article.

Fools who wrangle over flesh.
I am a fool for writing these comments, just as you are a fool for writing the original article. For I will not change your outlook on the issue just as though you will never change mine.
Just as your eyewitness accounts show there has been a division of veg and non-veg in the sangat for centuries and it shows no sign of changing.

Mistranslation and Misrepresentation of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Which side of the sangat is doing this - can you or I, quoted scholars or giani's from either side of this issue claim you have complete understanding of the Guru, of Bani or of Waheguru..? Your analysis belongs to you and those who made it. However, if I were for a moment to take your analysis as correct then even then I see no justification for being non-veg just as you see no justification to be veg.

Spiritual Merit of Vegetarianism.
I do not believe there is much spiritual merit in being vegetarian - this is where I agree with many of the examples you have given. Vegetarianism alone is not a path to God. It is ones actions, love and devotion etc that brings one into union.
For example: By my writing this response, to your writing your article and propagating our viewpoints to the community we have both forever committed something to the accounts of our life actions.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

Meat
For me meat is meat no matter how you obtain it, slaughter it, kill it, cook it, prepare it etc. For me there is a clear distinction between what is a living creature of the Lord's infinite creation and what the Lord created as vegetation. If there are areas of any doubt in between for me it is best to avoid than partake.
I know you have tried to tackle this subject in your essay and your interpretations - but for me none would convince me that I am not doing what is right.

So why not meat for me and many like me…?
I believe that you cannot have Righteousness (Dharm) without first having compassion (Daya). To kill, directly or indirectly any living creature merely for food would mean that I have lacked Daya. Killing is occasionally a necessary act, but I cannot condone it merely in order to eat. I would rather starve for the Datar will provide all I need.
I also believe in following the example our Guru's have shown us. They did not eat meat so I will not eat it.
How can one type of meat be permissible and another not? Surely the answer to that is within the essence of Sikhism.

 
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Gurfateh

Chohan Sahib,

yuor are great.

Das is realy an earthworm eating mud.We/I/me create Duja Bhav.We are no one to show compassion to anyone.If we think like that then our ego will increase manifold.Dharam or righthiousness is son of not our Daya or compassion or compassion of Akal unto us.Ie Faith or rightousness is gift to us by Akal.

We are not doer.If we be doer then to get retrun of that we may have to be reborn.Read Sukhmani Sahib.one who say I do again goes back to womb vagina(Garbh Jon)(to be reborn).

no one kills any one nor any one bring anyone to life.Akal gives life and Akal takes it back by which ever for Akal wants.In the form of Butcher Akal only kills another form of Akal ie goat.All is God.Same Akal as farmer kills plant another form of Akal.No other exists but Akal.Duja means any one second or other than Akal.Tujh bin Duja Nahi koi Tu Katar Kare So Hoyee.

this article does not say that that all sikhs should eat meat.the main aim
of this is to counter extreme vegetarian propaganda that vegetarianism
is part of sikhism and those people who eat meat are not sikhs.this article gives information that on the issue of diet gurbani is silent.eat what is good for your health


god has not created fertile land all over the world.there are coastal areas,icy regions,deserts.so please tell me what should people living there eat.a poor fisherman who earn his livelyhood by fishing is papi because he is killing animals,while a farmer who sprays pesticides on crops and kill millions of harmful as well as harmless insects is a good person.sorry to say but this type of theory needs a break.

Interesting comments I I whole heartedly understand them..........and the key to what you have said is "So why not meat for me and many like me…?" .............this is the point of the essay..........it is a personal choice.

It is not true the Guru's did or did not eat meat.....there are many different accounts.

With regards to "I believe that you cannot have Righteousness (Dharm) without first having compassion (Daya). To kill, directly or indirectly any living creature merely for food would mean that I have lacked Daya. Killing is occasionally a necessary act, but I cannot condone it merely in order to eat. I would rather starve for the Datar will provide all I need.".

Guruji tells us that there is as much life in a plant, rock or an animal................only human life is higher..............so surely killing a plant and eating its flesh is as sinful as eating animals? Read below:

THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT - ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.
On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji




ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.
go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.
muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar.
har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.
ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. rahaa-o.
jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.
ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat.
mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.
sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh.
lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:
The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?
When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home.
O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.
Why do you take pride in trivial matters? Pause
Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.
Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden.
Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions.
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:
Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.

hello
I'm sorry but I am not 100% sure what you are trying to say. I think you are trying to say that a the person has not part in the decision to kill an animal and it is completly the will of Akal.

If I have understood you correctly - then my reply to that would be if a person has no control over his actions then what would be the point of anything..?

if I have mis-understood then please restate.

what people choose to believe is or is not part of Sikhi is up to them. If what you are saying is true and Gurbani is silent on the issue then I can equally say where in Bani does it say go eat an animal.

I do not claim to understand God - or why he created such reasons on earth, however what I am saying is that if I were to live in such a region and have the same limited understanding of Sikhi as I do now, I would ask Datar to help me around that problem by whatever is his will.

Nor do I aim to condemn those that earn a living by killing God's creatures. I did however state earlier that killing is sometimes necessary/unavoidable - but I would not do it in order to eat.

agreed gurbani does not say go and kill animals.but please tell me where it says go and drink milk,eat paranthas,ice creams,halwa ,milk shake etc
but we not only eat them but also distribuite them in langar.then why this ho halla on the meat issue.

Randip Ji - I am replying to your post (but not using the quote option as is would be too big)

I do not (nor should anyone) claim to understand the order of things as that is for Akal alone.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

I do not disagree with your point that joon includes in many things (animal & vegetable)
As a vegetarian I must eat vegetation in order to survive.
However I choose not to kill (even indirectly) any of Akals' creatures that my own senses are telling me that they too have senses.
i.e. although a plant may "feel" the blade that cuts it down Akal has made it in such a way that any person (not matter what faith) cannot understand, acknowledge or comprehend that suffering.
I can however see that an animal can certainly feel, see and sense the result of the blade.
Therefore to knowingly and willingly cause suffering like that - I would lack Daya.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
Therefore as I can knowingly survive without causing willful suffering to Akal's creatures - I choose to be vegetarian. To me, for Sikhi to have Dharam it must first have Daya.

When a new system of belief comes into the world we are always bogged down in reacting to contraversies because previous systems of belief took a position on such topics, when our religion did not take a position noone talked about it for years so it became a taboo, when it became a taboo busy-bodies who have too much time on their hands decided to debate about it, the answer is simple if it goes against your conscience then dont do it perhaps youre level of enlightenment surpasses that of others but dont infringe youre enlightened stae onto others cos they will never understand till they reach your level. This can be said of all schisms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!