Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

kds1980 · #55 (**permalink**) 25-Jul-2006, 15:50 PM

today i read the vangar the first sermon of guru hargobind ji on tapoban.i found it really interesting guru hargobind ji ordered sikhs to go
to hunting.on the other hand these hardcore vegetarian sikhs says that
guru ji prohibited meat eating.isn't it a contradiction.
http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.p...13#reply_45013
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

Vangaar: The First Sermon of Guru Hargobind Sahib
Taken from â€œGur Bhariâ€� by Pr. Satbir Singh
Translated by Admin www.tapoban.org

Guru Hargobind Sahibâ€™s first sermon must be heard again today and applies just as much now as it did when he first gave it.

Guru Arjan Dev had been brutally tortured and embraced martyrdom, becoming an example for the Panth. The Sikhs were grief-struck and felt a sense of despair. The small Panth of Guru Nanak had been targeted by the mighty power of the Mughals.

Guru Hargobind Sahib, became the next Guru as per the orders of his father. In front of all the gathered Sikhs, Baba Buddha jee put the two swords of meeri and peeri on Guru Hargobind Sahib. Guru Sahib was dressed like and emperor and there was a kalgi (aigrette) on his dastaar.

The Dhadis, Bhai Abdullah and Bhai Nath Mal, at the hukam of Guru Hargobind Sahib sang a vaar filled with bir ras.

Then, Guru Hargobind Sahib rose and gave his first sermon to the Sikhs:

â€œToday the offerings that are beloved to me are good weapons and good youth. If you want my happiness, then exercise your bodies, wrestle, play gatka, go into the jungles to hunt and learn to ride horses. Weakness is now a crime to the Nation that cannot be forgiven for anyone. You will take up the sword and I now wear the sword so that the swords of tyranny and oppression will stop forever.

You have all come from far and wide today. The cool tranquillity has been stolen from not just your heart and my heart, but from the entire world. Our swords will not rest until we bring this oppression to an end.

Make day and night one. Go into the villages and light the inferno of revolution. Tell the people that we need their youth. Only that is a good youth that sacrifices itself for the cause of the Nation. We need sacred hearts and pure minds. Enshrine â€œpihlW mrn kbUlâ€� in your hearts. We fear death because we have not experienced true life. We feel worry because we have not enjoyed a taste of life. We feel fear because our destination and goal seems so far off. But if you challenge death, death will flee from you. If you learn to walk with your heads held high then worry will depart. If you are determined to walk, the destination will not be so far away. Have faith in Vahiguru and all fears will vanish. If fear has left you then even death will seem like bliss.â€�

Guru jee continued,

â€œDo not think that you are too few. You are all like springs. Oceans flow out of these very springs. There are hundreds of thousands of springs like you in our Nation. When you come together and flow forward, you will create a flood.

A small and insignificant piece of wood, when made into a match, can light the entire jungle on fire. But you are humans! And furthermore, those humans whose heart has just now been scorched on hot iron plates [reference to shahidi of Guru Arjan Dev jee].

Addressing the poets in the Sangat, Guru Sahib said,

â€œSee, God has given you the gift of poetry. When nations are built, you are the foundations. Stop all these other untimely songs and work to bring the Nation out of this deep dark pit. Tell those stories which will make the people willing to lose their skin like they would be willing to change their clothes. Fill the people of our Nation with the spirit and fervour to be like moths so they will sacrifice themselves in the flames of our cause.

Our blood has become cold. Tell us stories of Shahidi and become the furnaces that will boil our blood. Give us the passion to make the trampled Punjab and our crushed Nation rise to its feet once again.â€�
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

Speaking to the Dhadis, Guru Sahib said,

â€œNow is the time that your instruments should call out a challenge. Your notes should stir the Nation. The beat of your dhads should awaken the people and the bells on your bows should make hearts fill with the zeal of sacrifice.â€�

vijaydeep Singh · #56 (**permalink**) 26-Jul-2006, 15:21 PM

Gurfateh

Anyway in Ganda Singh's Hukamanammah book we have one or two Hukamanaanh attributed to Sixth Master telling Sikhs to stay away frm fish and meat.That was sent to east India and was perhaps a way to teach them a type of Nam Abhyas.It may not mean general for all Sikhs or Man kind else it would have found place in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Randip Singh · #57 (**permalink**) 30-Jul-2006, 18:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kds1980

today i read the vangar the first sermon of guru hargobind ji on tapoban.i found it really interesting guru hargobind ji ordered sikhs to go
to hunting.on the other hand these hardcore vegetarian sikhs says that
guru ji prohibited meat eating.isn't it a contradiction.
http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.p...13#reply_45013

Vangaar: The First Sermon of Guru Hargobind Sahib
Taken from â€œGur Bhariâ€� by Pr. Satbir Singh
Translated by Admin www.tapoban.org

Guru Hargobind Sahibâ€™s first sermon must be heard again today and applies just as much now as it did when he first gave it.

Guru Arjan Dev had been brutally tortured and embraced martyrdom, becoming an example for the Panth. The Sikhs were grief-struck and felt a sense of despair. The small Panth of Guru Nanak had been targeted by the mighty power of the Mughals.

Guru Hargobind Sahib, became the next Guru as per the orders of his father. In front of all the gathered Sikhs, Baba Buddha jee put the two swords of meeri and peeri on Guru Hargobind Sahib. Guru Sahib was dressed like and emperor and there was a kalgi (aigrette) on his dastaar.

The Dhadis, Bhai Abdullah and Bhai Nath Mal, at the hukam of Guru Hargobind Sahib sang a vaar filled with bir ras.

Then, Guru Hargobind Sahib rose and gave his first sermon to the Sikhs:

â€œToday the offerings that are beloved to me are good weapons and good youth. If you want my happiness, then exercise your bodies, wrestle, play gatka, go into the jungles to hunt and learn to ride horses. Weakness is now a crime to the Nation that cannot be forgiven for anyone. You will take up the sword and I now wear the sword so that the swords of tyranny and oppression will stop forever.

You have all come from far and wide today. The cool tranquillity has been stolen from not just your heart and my heart, but from the entire world. Our swords will not rest until we bring this oppression to an end.

Make day and night one. Go into the villages and light the inferno of revolution. Tell the people that we need their youth. Only that is a good youth that sacrifices itself for the cause of the Nation. We need sacred hearts and pure minds. Enshrine â€œpihlW mrn kbUlâ€� in your hearts. We fear death because we have not experienced true life. We feel worry because we have not enjoyed a taste of life. We feel fear because our destination and goal seems so far off. But if you challenge death, death will flee from you. If you learn to walk with your heads held high then worry will depart. If you are determined to walk, the destination will not be so far away. Have faith in Vahiguru and all fears will vanish. If fear has left you then even death will seem like bliss.â€�

Guru jee continued,

â€œDo not think that you are too few. You are all like springs. Oceans flow out of these very springs. There are hundreds of thousands of springs like you in our Nation. When you come together and flow forward, you will create a flood.

A small and insignificant piece of wood, when made into a match, can light the entire jungle on fire. But you are humans! And furthermore, those humans whose heart has just now been scorched on hot iron plates [reference to shahidi of Guru Arjan Dev jee].

Addressing the poets in the Sangat, Guru Sahib said,

â€œSee, God has given you the gift of poetry. When nations are built, you are the foundations. Stop all these other untimely songs and work to bring the Nation out of this deep dark pit. Tell those stories which will make the people willing to lose their skin like they would be willing to change their clothes. Fill the people of our Nation with the spirit and fervour to be like moths so they will sacrifice themselves in the flames of our cause.

Our blood has become cold. Tell us stories of Shahidi and become the furnaces that will boil our blood. Give us the passion to make the trampled Punjab and our crushed Nation rise to its feet once again.â€�

Speaking to the Dhadis, Guru Sahib said,

â€œNow is the time that your instruments should call out a challenge. Your notes should stir the Nation. The beat of your dhads should awaken the people and the bells on your bows should make hearts fill with the zeal of sacrifice.â€�

Hi KDS....my contention wouth be would Guru Hargobind ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji make Hukamna's to contradict each other. Either way we would obey the Tenth Masters Hukamanama.

From the essay above:

Quote:

HUKAMNAMA ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE 6TH MASTER

Some pro-vegetarian sections of the Sikh following have produced an alleged Hukamnama that states that the Sikhs of the East were not to go near meat. Unfortunately, the sources that have produced this Hukamnama, have not been able to back it up with any evidence of its genuineness, from any Sikh scholars of note. There have been statements to the effect that Ganda Singh found this document and indeed published it (Two collections of Hukamnamas are available in print form, one edited by Dr. Ganda Singh published in 1968 by Punjabi University and the S.G.P.C), but this has not been verified by any of his contemporaries or any other Sikh scholars..

Historical evidence, in fact contradicts what Guru Hargobind ji was actually like. He was an avid hunter and warrior. Again this fact some have tried to dismiss as Guruji giving Mukhti to animals souls. This, however, contradicts the Guru’s own philosophy which clearly states that only God is capable of granting such things.

Infact Bhai Gudas in his Vars States:

"Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water, Just as to get 'Mani', snake is to be killed; Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed; Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed; To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken; Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up." (Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13)

In fact such a hukamna would indeed contradict the one Guru Gobind Singh ji sent to his Sikhs in Kabul (ADVANCED STUDIES IN SIKHISM by Jasbir Singh and Harbans Singh.):

"Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga
Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai
Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena
Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair;
Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna
SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna
Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna
Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha
Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana
Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe
Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso
Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna
Guru kee rahat rakhnee
Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.

Patshahi Dasvi
Jeth 26, Samat 1756

(To the entire sangat at Kabul.
The Guru will protect the Sangat,
I am pleased with you all.
You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds.
Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru,
Accept the use of shorts and a sword.
Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist,
Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day.
Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat,
Do not use tobacco in any form,
Have no connection with those who kill their daughters
Or permit the cutting of their children's hair.
Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults)
Recite the Guru's hymns
Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord",
Follow the Sikh code of discipline
I give the entire sangat my blessing)

Signature of 10th Guru
Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami (23rd May 1699 A.D)

As we know, there is no contradiction in the Guru’s message.

It should be noted also that there are a number of Hukamnama’s that have been found that also purport Sikhs to adopt Brahmanical religious tenets.

kds1980 · #58 (**permalink**) 30-Jul-2006, 19:26 PM

veer ji the problem here is the word "kutha" many vegetarians sikh sites
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
are propagating that "kutha" means killed not halaal so hardcore vegetarian sikhs are not going to beleive that those hukamnama's
contradicts each other.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #59 (**permalink**) 01-Aug-2006, 09:41 AM

dear all,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

You just cannot modify a wod to suit yourself.

IF "Kuthha" is KILLED..then what is the opposite.."unkilled" ?? Does anyone eat ALIVE Meat ??

The fact is that the words Kutha, Kosher, Hallal etc are accepted world over as Meat of animals killed in the JEWISH/MUSLIM way of SACRIFICE to their God. Jews also have the KOSHER tradition and they wont touch Non-Kosher meat or Pork products. The Muslims have Kuttha/Halla and wont even go near non-Hallal meat/pork products.

FORCING everyone to EAT only KUTHA hallal was Mughal govt Policy...Sikhs cannot accept such force...thats why KUTHA was BANNEd fro Sikhs.( Other slavery restrictions were NO weapons for non-Muslims, no riding horses by non Muslims, No dastaars for Non Muslims...GURU JI BROKE all these Rules as well and made it compulsory for SIKHS to have a Horse, weapons and wear dastaars. All thsi si well documented and not imaginary. As such the Vegetarian Sikh is...just that a vegetarian Sikh ( Personal choice)

but has no basis in GURMATT.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

JSGyani

Randip Singh · #60 (**permalink**) 01-Aug-2006, 20:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kds1980

veer ji the problem here is the word "kutha" many vegetarians sikh sites
are propagating that "kutha" means killed not halaal so hardcore vegetarian sikhs are not going to beleive that those hukamnama's
contradicts each other.

Thanks for the reply Gyani Ji as well.

Hi KDS we have dealt with this topic in the above article too:

Quote:

THE KUTTHA MEAT ARGUMENT – KUTTHA MEANS ALL MEAT OR DOES IT?

What is Kuttha meat?

Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."
Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."

In the Rehit Marayada ( http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states:

The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided
1. Dishonouring the hair;
2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way(Kutha);
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;
4. Using tobacco.

There have been some quarters who have been at pains to create confusion over the word Kuttha. There is no confusion over this word, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is proof of this.

In the following Ang Guru Nanak condemns Brahmins, who serve their Muslim rulers stating they are acting like pseudo-Muslims. In this Ang there is a line which clearly refers to Kuttha as meat which has had Muslim prayers read over it. Kuttha, however, can meat any meat that is killed in a ritualistic manner.

mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:
maanas khaanay karahi nivaaj.
The man-eaters say their prayers.
chhuree vagaa-in tin gal taag.
Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.
tin ghar barahman pooreh naad.
In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.
unHaa bhe aavahi o-ee saad.
They too have the same taste.
koorhee raas koorhaa vaapaar.
False is their capital, and false is their trade.
koorh bol karahi aahaar.
Speaking falsehood, they take their food.
saram Dharam kaa dayraa door.
The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them.
naanak koorh rahi-aa bharpoor.
O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood.
mathai tikaa tayrh Dhotee kakhaa-ee.
The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;
hath chhuree jagat kaasaa-ee.
in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!
neel vastar pahir hoveh parvaan.
Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.
malaychh Dhaan lay poojeh puraan.
Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.
abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa.
They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,
cha-ukay upar kisai na jaanaa.
but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.
day kai cha-ukaa kadhee kaar.
They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung.
upar aa-ay baithay koorhi-aar.
The false come and sit within them.
mat bhitai vay mat bhitai.
They cry out, "Do not touch our food,
ih ann asaadaa fitai.
this food of ours will be polluted!
tan fitai fayrh karayn.
But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds.
man joothai chulee bharayn.
With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths.
kaho naanak sach Dhi-aa-ee-ai.
Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord.
such hovai taa sach paa-ee-ai. ||2||
If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord. ||2||

Hence, it is clear that Kutha does not mean all meat at all, it means specifically Halal Meat, but in the wider context it can mean meat that is ritually slaughtered.