Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

BhagatSingh · #**469** (**permalink**) 21-Aug-2008, 23:35 PM

Sinister Ji and Randip Singh ji, I think we should have a thread on diet.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html
For vegetarians and non vegetarians who want to get in shape/work out.
A meal plan we can follow.
Let's keep the meals punjabi so people like me know exactly what to eat.
*

Randip Singh · #**470** (**permalink**) 22-Aug-2008, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Sinister Ji and Randip Singh ji, I think we should have a thread on diet.
For vegetarians and non vegetarians who want to get in shape/work out.
A meal plan we can follow.
Let's keep the meals punjabi so people like me know exactly what to eat.

Great idea. Maybe you can kick them off.

BhagatSingh · #**471** (**permalink**) 22-Aug-2008, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randip singh

Great idea. Maybe you can kick them off.

Do your thing Randip Singh JI! http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/227...html#post85753

Randip Singh · #**472** (**permalink**) 28-Oct-2008, 23:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harsimran Singh

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh,

I agree with everything that is said about the arugument between vegetarianism and meat eating, but one question still comes to mind, and that is, Would Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji allow his sikhs to eat meat in the way it is slaughtered today?, Just ask yourself this question.
Unless your a hunter or a butcher who kills the animal using the sikh method of "Jhakta", the fact is that the meat we buy from stores is clearly what Guru Gobind Singh would have prohibited. Animals suffer in inhumane conditions, and are brutily tortured in slaughterhouses today. The method of killing in slaughterhouses is far worse than Halaal or Kosher meat. For example, ear's, tails, horn's are removed using no aneasthetic way(proper way) while the animal is conscious(link to Halaal), animal's are caged up their whole life unitl the day they can finally be free, but that day is usually their last, when they are tortured in the most inhumane way. The method of slaughter is just terrifying, and their are many videos that show this tragedy,
One great video that had awoken me up, and had a turning point in my life is the following, please have a look, and ask yourself, "Is this food that Sri Guru Gobing Singh Ji or any Guru would have allowed us to consume?", please ask yourselve.
Link: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...OU99XyDw&hl=enThis is an award winning documentory, and really get's across important detail.

In conclusion, my dear Gursikh friends, we never know how our meat gets to our table untill the truth is shown, so therefore please, reconsider, rethink, and react,

WaheGuru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh,
Harsimran Singh Khalsa

Good point, but this is the same that can be applied to every concievable factory farming method.

For example Milk - cows being pumped full of hormones, the way it is kept is terrible.

MilkSucks.com: Scary Dairy Tales - Animal Suffering

Vegetables growing unnaturally covered in pesticides.

I think the answer is to go Organic, either that, or rear you own animals and grow your own veggies.

Archived_Member4 · #**473** (**permalink**) 02-Nov-2008, 22:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randip singh

No I am not.

If we are forbidden from eating todays meat then we are forbidden from eating todays vegetables too.

Organic meat and vegetables are perfectly acceptable to Sikhs.

Meat too Organic is the way to go and is perfectly acceptable for Sikhs.

You have totally misunderstood why I added the link to the milk site, because it exposes the bubble that most vegetarians live in.

Meat organic is acceptable.

The fact one cannot see how factory farming for vegetables of the environment is killing insects, destroying habitats again shows the hypocrisy and the bubble most vegetarians live in.

A common misconception.

The word Kuttha relates to ritually slaughtered meat.

And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.
Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers.

A common misconceptuion

The blood coming ourt of the sweat meat was meant to be an analogy for exploitation of another man's “blood and sweat”. Absolutely NOTHING to do with meat.

Meat is an essential part of our diet. In some parts of the world it is the only diet.

No where have the Guru’s stated we must eat only Daal and Roti. This is pure conjecture.

A Half Truth

This relates not only to meat production.

What about wool?
What about Leather? (for belts shoes, and tabla’s played in the Gurudwara)
What about fertiliser for plants?
What about MILK?

Another Half Truth

Most factories with vegetables are contaminated

I think you need to read up on diseases and contamination from vegetarian sources.

Yet another Half Truth.

No. 1 cause is over consumption. Be that meat, dairy, vegetable.

Add a small amount of meat and you become a power individual like me.

Again are these animals being fattened for MILK too?

Or for wool and leather production?

But eating grain alone would leave millions malnourished.

Please define Sarbat Dha Bhalla? How does this apply to plants as well as animals?

Sikhs don’t eat Halal meat or any other ritually slaughtered meat i.e. Kuttha.

Does this apply to the Agri chemical used to kill insects and grow vegetables?

Is that fault of meat or economic policies?

Meat is Not life threatening.

Meat is part of that variety.

Nothing to do with meat.

I suspect you could, because your inherent bias is pro-vegetarian rather than pro-Sikh. Sikhism allows meat and vegetarianism.

It is an individual choice and neither blackmail, telling half truth’s or misconstruing the message of Sikhism will change that. That is the message of fools who wrangle over flesh..

Let us be correct about this. This message is a pro-vegetarian message, and NOT the SIKH message.

I will call it as it is and I will call vegetarians and 99.9999% of the points you have made hypocrisy and half truths. Sorry to be so blunt, but we see this kind of pro-vegetarian propaganda raise its UGLY head here from time to time.

Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.

First Mehl:
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

I have reconsidered and reacted, and have found the fanaticism of vegetarian groups incredibly distasteful.

Randip singh

I think you did not get Harsimran Singh point in his post. He exposed how animals are brutally being treated before they are killed and the method they use to kill animals is also horrific. A Sikh is to eat Jhatka meat and to say the meat coming from slaughter house is Jhatka would be ignoring the facts. And the fact that cows are being treated badly for maximum milk production from each cow. Also like you have said vegetable farms apply chemicals to there field to kill insects. The meat production plants and the farming methods are both wrong. Just by saying this is what happens to vegetables means I can eat meat that I don't know if its jtakha is being stubborn to the facts. Both methods of producing food are wrong. The reason why all of this is happening in both industries is because of maximizing profits and global efficiency. The world is trying to be more efficient, but not realizing what we are doing is harming the environment. To say both industries are hurting the environment the same would be also ignoring the facts. The meat industry is much worse than the produce industry. A person does not need meat to survive or even be healthy.

At the end it comes down to this TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT, Both industries are doing wrong. Best way to go is organic or grow or raise animals by yourself and then consume them. If you think this is 18 century living then you are avoiding the facts and avoiding truthful living.

Harsimran Singh · #**474** (**permalink**) 03-Nov-2008, 07:13 AM

WaheGuru ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru ji ki Fateh,

Mr. Singh ji thank you for pointed out some important points, for example, "harm being done to the environment" and " ignoring the type of meat being consumed"

I always have a picture in my mind, it is of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji during the creation of Khalsa, and i ask myself why the Guru put in such restrictions, for example not allowing his Sikhs to cut hair, commit adultery, restrictions on alcohol, tabocco, and Halal(kosher) meat. Then when i consider all of the restrictions, they seem to make sense, but the restriction on meat was a little harder to understand. I asked myself why specifically Halaal or kosher, why not all types? Now that i understand, Halaal is restricted for two reasons, one being the method of killing, and two the singing of godly hymms along with the slaughter. But i ask myself, what's wrong with singing god's hyms, when we are getting food to eat, afterall most of us say "Waheguru" before we eat a meal to thank the provider. Then i finally came to realize the it was the suffering the animal gets that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji wants us to avoid. For that reason Jhatka meat was recommended for those who preferred it. My point is that the suffering of the animal is what holds significance for the restriction of Halaal Meat, for example in India, I've heard that people say "Sat Sri Akal' while slaughtering with the method of Jhatka, that shows that lord's hymms were not necessary the restriction, it was the suffering the animal witnessed and continues to witness today.

Randip Singh Ji, a fact is a fact and if want to argue it then all you are doing is what Sikhism defines as unworthy, I can see you feel "distastful" and i am not asking you to go Vegetarian. The environmental problems are hurtful, and meat is a big part of that whether you want to agree with me or not.

"Add a small amount of meat and you become a power individual like me"
-Randip Singh

Wow, you must be powerful! , i am an ex-meat eater, based my decision on number of important details and situations going on(mentioned earlier), and i can say one thing for sure, and that is I have not gone any weaker and in fact i feel stronger and healthier, the fact is the type of foods you eat(almonds, nuts, legumes). You can be a lazy, unhealthy and weak person whether you are vegetarian or a meat eater, it is all about eating the right stuff, but if your worried and feared about getting about weak, then it does not show the spirit of Khalsa,

Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Khalsa survived in the jungles of Punjab while consuming Shoolay(a great source of protein) and digested tree bark while not having anything to eat, and the fact is that they took on the meat-eating moghuls and succeeded. So if you believe your going to feel weak without one meal of flesh, then i can ask you where is your spirit of Khalsa?

The points about the environment i mentioned in my eariler post have everything to do with Sikhism, after all Sikhism is a Universal loving faith.

Just to help you define "Sarbat tha Bhalla" - Blessings for all.
The significance of Sarbat tha Bhalla is consideration for all, if your saying that we need to share with the needy, I can ask you how are you really sharing with the needy when you are not only consuming millions of indirect grains, and pounds of inefficient flesh.
You have mentioned that people living in poverty is an economical issue, and that is true but meat is part of that. With the current economic crisis happening right now and increases in world prices of grains, oil and what not, many third world countries are in fact shipping out their grains to wealthy nations like ours, while their people are not being feed. Why is this happening? so that we can feed these grains to farm animals and go to sleep with "extra full" tummies. Speaking of nourishment, not everyone in the third world want to be heavy weight wrestlers, they just want to go to sleep without hunger, so these simple grains would have a significant positive impact on them.
My point is that, this is the whole concept of "Sarbat tha Bhalla",
If meat was sustainable for the universe, produced as Jhatka, then their wouldn't be any reason to not consume it, but the fact is that, it is not sustainble and difinetely doesn't fall under the concept of "Sarbat tha Bhalla"

Another point is that Sikhism as you must already is based on Karma, whatever you take from this world, their will be a higher price to pay for it after. So think about what takes up more resources? hint hint, that's pretty self-explanatory.

Consider a scale, of sustainability for this planet. Do you really think everyone on this planet can get Organic meat to their dinner table(if they have one!), the answer is no. It is believed that if the grains feed to farm animals were to be used as food for humans, then we would have enough food in stock for 3 years without production, and no one would go hungury. Think about it, over 6 billion (approx population of this planet) farm animals are slaughtered each year in the US alone, and if they are feed all those grains, that food would be more than enough for the world population. In fact more farmers would choose to go Organic in a sense because they won't have to apply heavy fertilizer currently used to feed both humans and farm animals.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
By the way i am not saying milk or veggie production is the best, but on a scale, it is much more sustainable than meat. The bad practises of the milk industry are linked to the meat industry, due to such high demand for meat, cows are continually milked so that they can be slaughtered as soon as possible.

Randip Singh Ji, I believe i have got enough across and if you still don't what to admit that today's methods are not acceptable just for Sikhs but for all of humanity, and changes need to be done, then please Rethink, Reconsider and hopefully react. Think environmentally, socially and morally the right thing.

WaheGuru ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru ji ki Fateh,
Harsimran Singh Khalsa

kds1980 · #**475** (**permalink**) 03-Nov-2008, 10:54 AM

Dear Harsimran singh ji

I am reading your arguements But I have found double standard on milk from you

Quote:

Consider a scale, of sustainability for this planet. Do you really think everyone on this planet can get Organic meat to their dinner table(if they have one!), the answer is no.

The same arguement is applicable on milk too Do you think that poor milkmen could take care of cows after they stop producing milk The answer is no

Quote:

The bad practises of the milk industry are linked to the meat industry, due to such high demand for meat, cows are continually milked so that they can be slaughtered as soon as possible.

Totally wrong Just see the plight of cows in India beef is mostly prohibited But as soon as cows stop producing milk they are thrown on roads result is Dieing a slow and painful death due to consuming polythene,illegal transportation of cattle to neighbouring country
Please remember cows are not bred in India for meat.Infact cost of keeping useless cattle in India is 18,000 crores per annum.As long as human use animals whether it is
for milk or for labour slaughter is neccessarry.Because No person can afford to keep useless animals.

Also You are forgetting that seafood provide so much of food to humans.without putting any resources

As far as your other arguements about environment is concerned It is applicable to each and every luxury we use From Driving SUVs to living in big houses to using Airconditioners etc But I have never seen any sikh bringing these issues,infact luxuries are even introduced to gurdwara's

Sinister · #**476** (**permalink**) 03-Nov-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harsimran Singh

If meat was sustainable for the universe, produced as Jhatka, then their wouldn't be any reason to not consume it, but the fact is that, it is not sustainble and difinetely doesn't fall under the concept of "Sarbat tha Bhalla"

Actually eating meat for the majority of humanity has and always will fall under the concept of “sarbat tha Bhalla”: some things that you do not understand.

“Sustainable for the universe”; This is an interesting concept…the “sustainability” argument that you posit is both ethically and rationally bankrupt.

Every activity and every industry that humanity participates in is currently “unsustainable". In order to understand this with more depth, a person must be familiar with the laws of thermodynamics. In order to recognize the importance of the livestock industry people must develop an intimate understanding of theories explaining reality, like; the 'Onsager reciprocal relations' or the 'Maximum Power Principle' theories.

Most people are woefully ignorant of the role that ‘meat eating’ has played in the development of modern day society and general human anatomical features (expansion of the brain):

Expanding on the Maximum Power Principle we come to the conclusion that energy storage is crucial to the survival of our species and it is our mastering of energy storage that has led humanity to dominate all fauna and flora. Humanity, even till today, utilizes livestock as a reservoir of our ‘hard earned energy’ (similar to a currency or any useful commodity). In times of extreme environmental conditions, sturdy livestock acted as the primary energy source to improve societies chances of survival...so that populations could move and penetrate all corners of the globe. The reason why livestock was developed is because it is a mobile energy storage unit (Q), which dramatically increased the survival capacity of semi-nomadic human groups (proto-agriculturalists). Granted, it can be deemed an inefficient storage unit, its existence is nonetheless mandatory (even today). The stability of this energy reservoir is a trade off of the energy losses.

Consumption of Livestock is partly and directly/indirectly responsible for all modern developments in agriculture and other industries. It was livestock that helped plough/till/harvest fields, transport humans/grains and it was livestock that fed hungry families during times of shortages. It was the expanse of livestock that provided fertilization to exhausted soils (read up on the nitrogen cycle). In the past, farmers could restore the fertility of their land by letting it lie fallow for several years or longer. But as population pressures increased, fallow periods declined or even disappeared and different ways of maintaining food production were needed: enter the animal. The organic fertilizer industry played a massive role in sustaining fields and in many poor areas it still does.

The by-products of Livestock (leather, dung-cakes, wool, bones, hair, etc.) were of great importance to the development of industry and humanity. Whale oil helped light the streets of London for decades. Animal fat was used to make wax candles; the source of artificial light for much of human history. The dependence on a diminishing supply of whale oil eventually led to the discovery of substitute sources of hydrocarbons (paraffin, crude oil, natural gas, vegetable waxes, etc)…(necessity breeds innovation) The domestication of animals led to the study of animals and this has directly and indirectly made humanity into a super species…yet here we are thinking that the roll of consumable livestock has come or should come to an end?…when the true potential of this vital resource still lies mostly untapped by humans.

The environmentalist arguments seem to stem from pessimism rather than optimism. They usually have a hyperactive tendency towards creating taboos in the name of false-altruism; it is insincere, at best. I view Altruism as an act of sharing innovation and information, which paves the way for increased efficiency and productivity. Enforcing conservation and harsh social engineering with the excuses of trying to construct an ethos of moral bravado has been proven fatal and unsustainble.

Thanks but no thanks…to the kitchen police (I deny this fatalism).

As a sikh; I will continue to eat meat for the good of humanity and for my health...so long as i can find it in the supermarket.

c h e e r s

Randip Singh · #**477** (**permalink**) 03-Nov-2008, 15:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singh

Randip singh

I think you did not get Harsimran Singh point in his post. He exposed how animals are brutally being treated before they are killed and the method they use to kill animals is also horrific. A Sikh is to eat Jhatka meat and to say the meat coming from slaughter house is Jhatka would be ignoring the facts. And the fact that cows are being treated badly for maximum milk production from each cow. Also like you have said vegetable farms apply chemicals to there field to kill insects. The meat production plants and the farming methods are both wrong. Just by saying this is what happens to vegetables means I can eat meat that I don't know if its jtakha is being stubborn to the facts. Both methods of producing food are wrong. The reason why all of this is happening in both industries is because of maximizing profits and global efficiency. The world is trying to be more efficient, but not realizing what we are doing is harming the environment. To say both industries are hurting the environment the same would be also ignoring the facts. The meat industry is much worse than the produce industry. A person does not need meat to survive or even be healthy.

At the end it comes down to this TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT, Both industries are doing wrong. Best way to go is organic or grow or raise animals by yourself and then consume them. If you think this is 18 century living then you are avoiding the facts and avoiding truthful living.

I think I fully understand the issues.

As for double standards, the crux of the matter is vegetarian hypocrisy.

Why don't you grow your own crops and cultivate them yourself?
Why don't you rear your own animals and milk your own cows?
Why don't you syop wearing leather?
Why don't you ban dholkee's and tabla's (skin covered instruments) from Gurudwara's?

As I have stated, Organic for Meat, Vegetables and Milk is perfectly acceptable for a Sikh.

I think you have not understood what the concept behind Kuttha is. It is about ritual slaying, nothing to do with humane or inhumane killing.. Jhatka is a response to that.