Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

Randip Singh · #28 (**permalink**) 30-May-2006, 14:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amardeep

nice essay.

but if you look at it logically, dont you think that God will punish you for killing animals in order to eat them?

i talked to an aunti, she said that the hukamnama from Guru Govind Singh Maharaj was that we arent allowed to eat meat, and not only "halal meat"...
she says that it is those wicked shcholars that came up after 1984 that has been saying this in order to divide us bla bla...

There is no Hukamnama from Guru Gobind Singh ji saying this. Read the essay, because there is a section that deals with Hukamnama's of Guru Hargobind that allegedly state not eating meat. However, there is another by Guru Gobind Singh ji that says its ok to eat meat so long as it is not Halal.

Also there is a section that deal with the Chaurasi Lank joon argument....i.e. minerla, vegetable, animal then human..................however......Bani does not say this...............it says you have Human life at on level....then below that animal, plant....mineral at one level.

Read it in the essay rather than me explain it....its been kept short for ease of reading.

Amardeep · #29 (**permalink**) 30-May-2006, 17:09 PM

sath shri akal.

i have read the article, and i am a meat eater myself, but i keep thinking that it is wrong to kill just for pleasure of the tongue.

is there not bad karma attached to eating meat? i know that plants have a soul to, but i heard they dont give karma.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

what are we suppose to eat if everything has life :S...

kds1980 · #30 (**permalink**) 30-May-2006, 17:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amardeep

nice essay.

but if you look at it logically, dont you think that God will punish you for killing animals in order to eat them?

i talked to an aunti, she said that the hukamnama from Guru Govind Singh Maharaj was that we arent allowed to eat meat, and not only "halal meat"...
she says that it is those wicked shcholars that came up after 1984 that has been saying this in order to divide us bla bla...

if god is going to punish us for killing animals
then what about the use of pesticides . for growing non organic vegetarian food millions of insects are killed. isn,t god going to punish us
killing so many insects.is the life of insect less valuable than an animal.

vegetarianism as a theory invented by people living in fertile areas.but god has not created fertile area everywhere.what about the people living in coastal areas icy region .is god going to punish them for eating meat .if god wanted humans to be vegetarian
then he should have created fertile area everywhere.

Randip Singh · #31 (**permalink**) 30-May-2006, 17:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amardeep

sath shri akal.

i have read the article, and i am a meat eater myself, but i keep thinking that it is wrong to kill just for pleasure of the tongue.

is there not bad karma attached to eating meat? i know that plants have a soul to, but i heard they dont give karma.

what are we suppose to eat if everything has life :S...

Hi Amardeep,

Read the section in article about Joon (or Chaurasi Lakh Joon).........it will dismiss any notions of what gives bad Karma.

Also read the section on taste........in order for the taste argument to hold then Vegetarian food would have to taste awful...............I am a meat eater but the tastiest dish I like is White Channay (Chitay Chollay). This argument is invalid.

I stress again...read the sections in the article that relate to these things you have brought up.

Amardeep · #32 (**permalink**) 30-May-2006, 23:37 PM

how do you explain this verse:

rojaa Dharai manaavai alhu su-aadat jee-a sanghaarai.
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

ਆਪਾ ਦੇਖਿ ਅਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਦੇਖੈ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਝਖ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
आपा देखि अवर नही देखै काहे कउ झख मारै ॥१॥
aapaa daykh avar nahee daykhai kaahay ka-o jhakh maarai. ||1||
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word? ||1||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

Page 483, Line 5 kabir

Randip Singh · #33 (**permalink**) 31-May-2006, 00:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amardeep

how do you explain this verse:

rojaa Dharai manaavai alhu su-aadat jee-a sanghaarai.
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

ਆਪਾ ਦੇਖਿ ਅਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਦੇਖੈ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਝਖ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
आपा देखि अवर नही देखै काहे कउ झख मारै ॥१॥
aapaa daykh avar nahee daykhai kaahay ka-o jhakh maarai. ||1||
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word? ||1||

Page 483, Line 5 kabir

What Bhagat Kabir is tackling here is the hypocrasy of the Mullahs. They sacrifice creatures (usually a chicken or goat), as a token of what Abraham was willing to do for God.............however the Mullahs themselves own hearst are not full of sacrifice for others....but only for themselves.......

Read all of the Tukh

Again we tackled something similar to this in the essay....read the essay before posting....it talks about this..

ਆਸਾ ॥
आसा ॥
aasaa.
Aasaa:

ਰੋਜਾ ਧਰੈ ਮਨਾਵੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਸੁਆਦਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ॥
रोजा धरै मनावै अलहु सुआदति जीअ संघारै ॥
rojaa Dharai manaavai alhu su-aadat jee-a sanghaarai.
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

ਆਪਾ ਦੇਖਿ ਅਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਦੇਖੈ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਝਖ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
आपा देखि अवर नही देखै काहे कउ झख मारै ॥१॥
aapaa daykh avar nahee daykhai kaahay ka-o jhakh maarai. ||1||
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word? ||1||

ਕਾਜੀ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕੁ ਤੋਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਨ ਦੇਖੈ ॥
काजी साहिबु एकु तोही महि तेरा सोचि बिचारि न देखै ॥
kaajee saahib ayk tohee meh tayraa soch bichaar na daykhai.
O Qazi, the One Lord is within you, but you do not behold Him by thought or contemplation.

ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਬਉਰੇ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਜਨਮੁ ਅਲੇਖੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
खबरि न करहि दीन के बउरे ता ते जनमु अलेखै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
khabar na karahi deen kay ba-uray taa tay janam alaykhai. ||1|| rahaa-o.
You do not care for others, you are a religious fanatic, and your life is of no account at all. ||1||Pause||

ਸਾਚੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥
साचु कतेब बखानै अलहु नारि पुरखु नही कोई ॥
saach katayb bakhaanai alhu naar purakh nahee ko-ee.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.

ਪਢੇ ਗੁਨੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥
पढे गुने नाही कछु बउरे जउ दिल महि खबरि न होई ॥२॥
padhay gunay naahee kachh ba-uray ja-o dil meh khabar na ho-ee. ||2||
But you gain nothing by reading and studying, O mad-man, if you do not gain the understanding in your heart. ||2||

ਅਲਹੁ ਗੈਬੁ ਸਗਲ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਲੇਹੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥
अलहु गैबु सगल घट भीतरि हिरदै लेहु बिचारी ॥
alhu gaib sagal ghat bheetar hirdai layho bichaaree.
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੈ ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ॥੩॥੭॥੨੯॥
हिंदू तुरक दुहूं महि एकै कहै कबीर पुकारी ॥३॥७॥२९॥
hindoo turak duhoo-aN meh aikai kahai kabeer pukaaree. ||3||7||29||
The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. ||3||7||29||

Amardeep · #34 (**permalink**) 31-May-2006, 01:01 AM

the text talks about pleasure..Muslims dont halal slaughter animals because it is fun. they do it because they have to eat the meat, hence- Pleasure of the tongue..
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji condems this action..

Lionchild · #35 (**permalink**) 31-May-2006, 03:15 AM

Well there seems to be confusion of the vegetarian stuff, persoannly, no oen should be pro-meat or pro-veggy. Cause both kill living creatures and have equal status.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

We use pesticides and clear rainforests to grow vegetabes that kills countless animals and in some situations, make certain speices extinct.

We drive cars that kill people that pollute, as well as build homes over habitat... we kill something everyday...

In some places of the world, meat is needed for survivla, i came from one of those places...

Randip Singh · #36 (**permalink**) 31-May-2006, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amardeep

the text talks about pleasure..Muslims dont halal slaughter animals because it is fun. they do it because they have to eat the meat, hence- Pleasure of the tongue..
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji condems this action..

This is nothing to do with the pleasure of the tongue whatsover.

Where did you get that from? No mention of tongue. No mention of taste. Infact no mention of meat.

Also I was just reading the Gurmukhi and there is no mention of animals.

This is about murdering beings for pleasure......jee-aa is the living.

This may also be a reference to forcible conversion by the Maulvi's, who murdered many thousands of Hindu's who would not convert to Islam. I'd have to research the time frame of Kabir when he said this .

at the end Kabir proclaims

hindoo turak duhoo-aN meh aikai kahai kabeer pukaaree. ||3||7||29||
The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. ||3||7||29||

So in all probability it maybe about that.

One thing I am sure of this is nothing to do with pleasure and the tongue.

Either way.....the point is the same....it is tackling the hypocrasy and biggotry of the Mullahs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lionchild

Well there seems to be confusion of the vegetarian stuff, persoannly, no oen should be pro-meat or pro-veggy. Cause both kill living creatures and have equal status.

We use pesticides and clear rainforests to grow vegetabes that kills countless animals and in some situations, make certain speices extinct.

We drive cars that kill people that pollute, as well as build homes over habitat... we kill something everyday...

In some places of the world, meat is needed for survivla, i came from one of those places...

I think as a Native Canadian you definitely have an advantage over understanding the ways of nature.........something most Sikhs from Punjab have problems getting to grips with.