| Tags | chicken, confused, dairy, eat, flesh, fools, halal meat, haram, kutha meat, meat, meat and sikhism, meat eating, prodcuts, sikh, sikhism, sikhism practices, thread, veg, wrangle  | 
09-Dec-2006, 04:39 AM
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| |  | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan  Like I said previuosly - history is written how people want to write it. Even if the above was true, it does not means Sikhs should be non-veg then as much as now.
What has converts in the past got to do with my beliefs of Sikhi today - I know next to nothing about Hinduism etc.. | If you do not understand Sikh history then you do not understand Sikhism...simple.....thats what it has to do with belief in Sikhi today.
You cannot build a house on no foundations.
You made a statement about Islamic influence on Sikhism.....I can prove the influx of Hindu Vaishnavs into Sikhims and Hindu influence.....you must make good your statement and demonstrate the Islamic influence and where it came from?
Was it converts? Sikh prechers who were Muslim? Something other. Don't dodge the question and give referenceses.
Read:
Sikh History From Persian Sources - Grewal and Habib
The Khalsa Over 300 Years - Grewal and Indu Banga....in particular The Census and the Sikhs Page 121 Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan To stop this going round in circles:
Not being well versed in Gurbani - can anyone please show me 1 shabad in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that confirms Jee Hatia for comsumption is acceptable practice. | No the glass is not half empty...it is half full!!!
The demostration is to show where Bani states one must eat a certain type of food.........it clearly does not!!
The vegetarians and meat eaters here apart from you are all agreed.....Bani has nothing to do with Vegetarianism or Meat eating...........it is not an a-la-carte menu. You have yet to demonstrate anything coming close to even saying that it does.
The point of the essay IS that fools wrangle over flesh.........be that from an animal or a plant!!! It use Bani and historical texts to illustrate that........so far you have not demostrated either. Got anything to share on This Topic? Why not share your immediate thoughts/reaction with us! Login Now! or Sign Up Today! to share your views... Gurfateh!
__________________ Randip Singh
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Page 1289
Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
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09-Dec-2006, 05:37 AM
| | | | | Enrolled: May 25th, 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 44
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| | | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan welcome to the new world of organic farming (non organic is only a recent phenomena)
there are laws around the treatment of farm animals now in this country. the buffalos on our farm back in India are all treated well also. | Actually you need to understand Oraganic farming. It still involves pest eradication. Also breeding of some plants that insects won't eat.......this means birds do not have a food source and die.
Farming land destroys natural habitats for wild life and they die.
Ploughing soil kills many millions of insects and worms.
Saying that I am a great supporter of Organic Farming....and supported it when I first started Power Lifting and realised the importance of good nutrition. |
09-Dec-2006, 06:00 AM
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| | | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan I see your point also – and no I cannot claim to understand the ways of Akal.
However – I still cannot reconcile killing with my belief that Sikhi is a progressive, logical, forward thinking way of the future for mankind. | In Sikhi you cannot avoid killing….that is the point. Matter cannot be destroyed or created but merely changes from one form to another. Sikhi acknowledges that. The fact you do not see plants as killing is neither here nor there…….because Guruji CLEARLY does. However, the killing of plants is acceptable for you. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan I do not claim to know much about history, what the situation was in the past or how things came to be the way they are. However, I believe the whole human race is progressing and becoming more aware of the concepts of animal cruelty (Daya) the benefits of vegetenarianism and even newer ideas like the benefits of organic farming etc. | Organic farming does not mean Vegetarianism…..it also means livestock and poultry. It means rearing and growing in a natural way as possible. No use of insecticides, steroids etc. Daya does not mean animal cruelty. That assumption on your part is wholly wrong. Daya is compassion. A meat eater can have compassion yet vegetarians can be the most cruel. Adolf Hitler example of the most cruellest Vegetarian ever. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan Let me try and explain my view in another way:
If an apple ripens and falls from the tree – where was the life, in the apple or the tree? Does the life in the tree remain..? Will a new apple emerge..? | The apple is the fertilised egg of the tree…….it has potential to be life………..by eating it you deny it that life. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan When the wheat dries up and “dies” it is ready for harvest. Is there life in that wheat..? | Wheat ripening is a man made process……….basically you are denying wheat water………and then harvesting the wheat eggs to be criushed and eaten in bread. Again you are denying those fertilised wheat eggs (grain) a chance for life. ਜੇਤੇ ਦਾਣੇ ਅੰਨ ਕੇ ਜੀਆ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
जेते दाणे अंन के जीआ बाझु न कोइ ॥
jaytay daanay ann kay jee-aa baajh na ko-ay.
As many as are the grains of corn, none is without life. ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ पहिला पाणी जीउ है जितु हरिआ सभु कोइ ॥
pahilaa paanee jee-o hai jit hari-aa sabh ko-ay. First, there is life in the water, by which everything else is made green. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan When I mow my lawn to keep it tidy – does the blade of grass not grow tall again..? | When the grass grows it is trying to get to the stage where it can release its seeds (eggs), to grow….by cutting the grass you are denying it a chance to do that…..hence prevent it from procreating. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan I cannot comprehend God’s wonderful creation. As mankind is not as enlightened as our Guru Ji’s we cannot posses the wisdom to comprehend such things (do you..?). | I cannot, but in terms of Bani, this seems to be a denial that Plant has life and that we do not kill Plants or manipulate them and stop them from breeding for our own needs. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan
However, do we still ignore the suffering that God has enabled us to perceive right in front of us..? Do he give us these senses for no reason..? | Your senses will also take you to Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar……….let us follow our senses to this too. The comprehension of life in all its wonders is beyond our senses………..our senses can fool us. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan
If I was to eat merely the liver of a cow – will the cow recover..? | You would not slice part of apple from a tree, and throw the rest away………in the same way you would not do this to a cow. Sorry this is an absurd analogy. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan If I eat the leg of a sheep – does the leg grow back? | Again the same applies as the apple analogy. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan If I bury the heart of a pig in the ground and water that ground – will a new pig appear..? | That would be an attempt at unnatural manipulation……….. Pigs breed….that is the way God made them………in the same way plants breed………both in different ways. This is again an absurd analogy. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan I think not – because I would be extinguishing the Jot of that creature completely and deliberately. What right do I have to do that for no reason other than to eat..? | Is not the potential Jot of the apple to become a tree extinguished for your apple pie? Is not the Jot of the wheat seed to become a plant extinguished for your bread? You are applying the Jot concept to a narrow set of criteria, and not in the concept of Bani. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan Guru Ji made Amrit on Akal’s command. Mata Ji added sweetness to that Amrit so that the Khalsa would keep sweetness, love, caring and compassion (Daya) in our hearts. All of which are undeniably among the qualities of our True Lord.
How is the killing God’s creatures the way of the Khalsa and not an insult to the Amrit..? | Are you denying a plant is one of Gods creatures? It breeds, it feeds, it breathes etc……….again a very narrow application of what is construed as having life. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan Without having that Daya when you kill do you become Dharmi by doing so..? | So everytime you have a mouthful of cornflakes you are a Dharmi?.............I think not. Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan By drawing blood so needlessly (as God has created the right food for us in vegetation) how is the Khalsa benefiting mankind – or is he merely satisfying his own thirst for blood..? | This is YOUR view, and not the view of Bani. A plant has blood, it has sap….because it is not red you have no Daya. Foe someone who is saying they have Daya this is a very narrow definition and only stretched to certain life forms. Same thirst could be applied to thirst for plant blood (sap).  |
09-Dec-2006, 08:49 AM
|  | (previously Kanwardeep Singh) | | | Enrolled: Apr 4th, 2005 Location: INDIA Age: 32
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| |  | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan welcome to the new world of organic farming (non organic is only a recent phenomena)
there are laws around the treatment of farm animals now in this country. the buffalos on our farm back in India are all treated well also. | organic food is only for rich people as it is 4 or 5 times costlier than non
organic food so does that mean a poor person is papi because he cannot
afford organic food
as far as milk is concerned milk and meat are totally associated with each other.for production of milk breeding of cows or buffaloes is necessary 1 cow become's 10 ,10 becomes 100 and so on.in the end there is only 1 solution left for them and that is to kill them to control their population.this is exactly happening in india.indians don't eat beef but they love to drink cow milk so population of cows is increasing day by day.so cows in india are dieing from
starvation,eating polythene bags or illegaly transported to bangladesh or pakistan.so who is responsible for this condition of cows obviously the milk drinkers.so if a person think that meat eating is wrong he cannot justify
milk drinking whether organic or non organic. |
09-Dec-2006, 12:57 PM
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| | | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Gurfateh Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan Vijaydeep - you make me laugh.. 
Khalsa should not have Daya..?  | Das is happy that he made a Mahpurush(Great Person) laugh.
Yes Khalsa does not ahev any emotion.Bramgyani Ka Sad Nirlep.Nirlep is from Nirlipta Bhav in Sanskrit.Like lotus is not touched by marsh.Khalsa has not self feeling or attachemtn towards any worldy thing.no love to biotic or abiotic things.
As in Body of that Khalsa.Instead of self mind,mind of Akal lives.In me nothing is mine and all is your(Mera Mujh Mein kichh Nahi,Jo Kichh Hai So Tera..(forgive das for wrong spelling if any)).
Daya or mercy as well as mercylessness(mentioned in Sukhmani Sahib and Dasham Granth Sahib Ji) are attribute of Akal.All feeelings are of Akal.And Akal onle feels them vide our bodies.Our bodies are not our rather apprantly ours.They are of Akal.Sat Sri Akal means that Truth is Eternal.Eternalo Akal is truth.Rest we run after our deeds good or bad while all are of Akal. |
09-Dec-2006, 13:02 PM
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| | | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Gurfateh Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan of course we learn from history - but was what happened in history always the right thing..? Who's to say..?
Comparing humans to animals is a non issue as God created humans with a certain degree of intelligence.
In terms of areas of the earth without fertile land that can be promlematic for Khalsa - however in this day and age there are many ways around that (that may even include Khalsa being restricted to certain lands)
That is still no justification for being non-veg | Respected Chauhan Sahib,
Akal is as in Human as in Animals and as in Plants.Humans as you say are aboe animals,so are they above plants.By nature spcie above in parmyd eats the speice below.
Khalsa is told to be in all world as Avtar of Kaliyuga(Sau Sakhi).so how can Avtar of Kaliyuga be limted to fertile Land only.Is rest of the Land not the part of the world. |
09-Dec-2006, 13:16 PM
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| | | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Gurfateh Quote:
Originally Posted by amarsanghera
can you elaborate please?
| As per an audio cassate by Sant Singh Ji Maskeen Sadhu Sant.
Human being has four state.
Duniyadar,nothing to do with faith and in all wordly affaris.Sikh in such place is more a turbanned Hindu.
Jigyasu-here a person becomes interested to know something about God,gaining of knowledge is ore a work.Term Sikh goes over here.
Sadhu-Here person starts to move on the path of truth.Knwoledge gained in previous state is put to use.Term Singh(after Baptism perhaps) is used.
Sant-Sa Anant-(like limitless) at this state a person reaches the destination.It is state of Salvation of being Alive.Here person is one with God.God is felt all around.People may see individual body but God only rests there.That is Khalsa. |
09-Dec-2006, 15:30 PM
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| | | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by hchohan Sorry – I missed out some more of my thoughts.
Many say that eating Halal meat is a cardinal sin. All identify it as meat that has been “sacrificed” in a slow way with the name of God said over it.
In saying this you have no difficulty in identifying that meat as the meat of an animal.
To identify what is killed in a slow way or what is killed in a fast way would imply that you know what time is and how to deal less suffering. Time and suffering are things that only Akal knows – you are a fool if you think you know it.
When a Khalsa readies a meal he should offer that food for blessing to God (Bhog) or remember Waheguru or recite a prayer over it before eating.
So I ask you – what is difference between that and Halal?
To me either one is a cardinal sin against the Amrit. | Read the folleing: And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not. Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers. The key here is sacrifice. Whether it be Bismil, Halal, or Anustrani............the point of sacrificing animals is pointless to the Sikh. Jhatka was introduced for several reasons. Not the quickness or slowness of killing (although that lies in logic - see point 2)
1) It gave Sikhs a prescribed way of killing animals that did not involve sacrifice.
2) It was logical, since crops to were harvested and severed in the exact same manner.
3) It stopped this notion that God needed appeasement through sacrifice. As Kabir ji points out to Mullahs who carry out their Halal sacrifice: (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1350) You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay. The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque? Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? 4) If God has created everything then what is the point of sacrificing something he/she has created too him/her?. It is like me owning a choclate factory (and I make all the choclates in the world) and you giving me a choclate for a present. Makes no sense. The above shabad also highlights this point. On a side note the essay highlights countless shabads that have words like Bismila, Halal etc thathave wrongly been misinterpretated by people as alluding to killing animal.........rather than alluding to meaningless sacrifice. |
09-Dec-2006, 19:02 PM
|  | .jpg) Sawa lakh se EK larraoan | | | Enrolled: Jul 4th, 2004 Location: KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA Age: 64
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| |  | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
The solid proof that all this "Meat-NonMeat" debate was SETTLED by Guru nanak ji Sahib..is the Complete "NON-touching of this issue by any other succeeding Guru sahibs" None of the other Gurus Sahibs wrote anything on this..after Guru nana K jI made the Final point - Maas maas kar MOORAKH Jhaggrreh. Long after the passing on of Guru Gobind Singh ji and round about middle of the 18th Century..this DEBATE was REVIVED - by the Udasis, Nirmalas, etc who were HINDUS/Brahminised saboteurs who had gained control of Sikh shrines and religious books..these same peopel revived the so called Bachittar natak granth (subtly renamed dasam guru da granth ) and anti gurmatt books like Gurbilas, sooraj parkash, etc etc ( sooraj parkash writer santokh singh was a drug user..so he wrote that Guru Gobind Singh Ji used Drugs..Rattan Singh Bhangu of Panth prkash was a Bhang user..so he made Guru nanak ji a user of BHANG..any writer who was aDevi worshipper..made sure he wrote Guru ji worshipped Devis..and so on..this meat thingy is a link in thsi nefarious chain to dilute and defame Gurnmatt of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Aakllen SAHIB seveahn..Sikho use your God givne Intellect to differentiate between Gurmatt and non-Gurmatt. Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.htmlReference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
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