Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

Bhagat Singh ji thanks for your efforts but the urge to win the argument at all costs is showing its ugly head icecreammundaLet us review the full context of above one liner,

Sat Sri Akal.

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Ambarsaria ji,
1. There is no argument that can be won.
2. I suggest you read the teeka translation you are quoting. Professor Sahib Singh explains the shabad there.

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥
कबीर जोरी कीए जुलमु है कहता नाउ हलालु ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html
Kabīr jorī kī▫e julam hai kahṯā nā▫o halāl.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ = ਧੱਕਾ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ। ਹਲਾਲੁ = ਜਾਇਜ਼, ਭੇਟਾ ਕਰਨ-ਯੋਗ, ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ।
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਮੁੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦੱਸ ਕਿ) ਕਿਸੇ ਉਤੇ ਧੱਕਾ ਕਰਨਾ ਜ਼ੁਲਮ ਹੈ, (ਤੂੰ ਜਾਨਵਰ ਨੂੰ ਫੜ ਕੇ ਬਿਸਮਿੱਲਾ ਆਖ ਕੇ ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਅਤੇ) ਤੂੰ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਕਿ ਇਹ (ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾਨਵਰ) ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ (ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਨਾਲ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਉਤੇ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ); (ਪਰ ਇਹ ਮਾਸ ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਖਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈਂ। ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੀਂਦੇ, ਕਦੇ ਸੋਚ ਕਿ)
Kabir says, Mullah, to use force is tyranny.
[Further, elaboration]You forcefully hold the animal and read your prayers and slaughter it, and claim that the animal (which you slaughtered) is ready as sacrifice, and that God will be graceful for this. But you eat the meat yourself. Your sins will not be forgiven this way.


ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਂਗੀਐ ਤਬ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੮੭॥
दफतरि लेखा मांगीऐ तब होइगो कउनु हवालु ॥१८७॥
Ḏafṯar lekẖā māʼngī▫ai ṯab ho▫igo ka▫un havāl. ||187||
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||
xxx ॥੧੮੭॥
ਜਦੋਂ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਮਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਹਿਸਾਬ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਤਾਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੀਹ ਹਾਲ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ॥੧੮੭॥


ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ ॥
कबीर खूबु खाना खीचरी जा महि अम्रितु लोनु ॥
Kabīr kẖūb kẖānā kẖīcẖrī jā mėh amriṯ lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ = ਚੰਗੀ ਖ਼ੁਰਾਕ। ਲੋਨੁ = ਲੂਣ।
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਮੁੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬੇਸ਼ੱਕ ਆਖ ਕਿ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇ ਬਹਾਨੇ ਮਾਸ ਖਾਣ ਨਾਲੋਂ) ਖਿਚੜੀ ਖਾ ਲੈਣੀ ਚੰਗੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਸੁਆਦਲਾ ਲੂਣ ਹੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੋਵੇ।
Kabir says, Mullah, rather than to eat meat with the excuse that it is animal sacrifice, it is better to eat Khichree with salt.

ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥
हेरा रोटी कारने गला कटावै कउनु ॥१८८॥
Herā rotī kārne galā katāvai ka▫un. ||188||
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||
ਹੇਰਾ = ਮਾਸ। ਕਾਰਨੇ = ਗ਼ਰਜ਼ ਨਾਲ, ਨਿਯਤ ਨਾਲ। ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ = ਮੈਂ ਕੱਟਣ ਨੂੰ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ॥੧੮੮॥
ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਲਈ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਮਾਸ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਣ ਦੀ ਨਿਯਤ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਹੋਵੇ ਪਰ (ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦਾ ਹੋਕਾ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਪਸ਼ੂ ਨੂੰ) ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਫਿਰਾਂ ॥੧੮੮॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
I am not even ready to accept that for my intention of eating meat, an animal is being slaughtered (in the name of sacrifice).


My understanding of the shabad was presented here.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/164643-post1036.html What you are quoting is only to demonstrate that the word hayra/hera (meat) exists in the shabad and that contrary to what the article says, the shabad is in fact talking about meat. Studying the full shabad we find that Kabir expresses the view that killing animals is tyrannical and unrighteous. This is confirmed when we read other Saloks of Kabir and is consistent with his vegetarian diet.

Indeed that is so. The Vaishnav interpretations of Bani will ultimately lead us down the wrong path. The damage is here to be seen already.

I've talked to one of the authors and I am going to be allowed to correct some of the grammar.

Indeed thats why I refuse to participate. One has to have a bare minimum of understanding of Sikhism, Sikh History and Sikh Polity in order to understand Bani. The point of the essay is exactly what our friend Bhaghat Singh seems to be doing:

1) Not realising that this is a direct attack on the Invasion of Timur which was done in the name of Islam
2) Not understanding that the word Hayra hunt/meat/or not is irrelevant in the context of the shabad, in that it talks about simplicity and not hypocrasy. I mean you could replace this word with cavier, pineapple, mangoe, karah/halwa and the meaning would be exactly the same of the shabad.
3) Lack of understanding of words like Bismil and Halal, and thinking they only mean kill. I wonder if the Halal toothpaste in my local muslim shop had been killed
4) Pulling out one lines in the shabads and distorting the shabads. In the above, actual distorting the entire meaning of the shabad.
5) Treating the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as an A la carte menu of what to eat and not to eat. Something I personally find abhorrent.
6) Allowing his Krodh and Egotism to dictate what Bani whould say rather than what it should say.
7) I've been through several translations of this shabad, and Bhagat Singh interpretation is the most unique I have found. I have not found a single Sikh intellectual of note that agrees with his interpretation.

From the essay:

MOTIVATIONS BEHIND MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION

There are several reasons behind why these mistranslations and misrepresentations have occurred:
· The publishers have a lack of education and do not understand the meaning of words in Gurmukhi and the correct translation into English.
· In their eagerness to promote their own brand of Sikhism (Sant, Jatha etc) they have deliberately allowed mistranslation and misrepresentation.
· Genuine abhorrence of killing animals can be a motivation too (eg those people that believe in Animal Rights), however Sikhism should not be used as a tool to promote such agendas.
· Poor knowledge of history and the context in which the Gurus and Bhaghats wrotes these Angs is a factor too. This can lead to a misrepresentation.
· In conclusion one can only say that it is very important that Sikh institution promote a clear and concise programme where only those with a certain amount of knowledge in Sikh History and the Sikh Language, should be officially sanctioned as being translators for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Veer Jio's ,by grace let us eat and be thankful but place no black marks against anyone else,and be compassionate and softly spokenonly then can we be sure we are not hurting life.With the tongue we can butcher or befriend.

You are 100% , Bhaghat Singh ji forgive me for my comments. Section edited in the essay as well:

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (Sri Guru Granth Sahib p1374)

Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.
kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.
divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.
kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.
gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served â€"
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat in the context of dining habits whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food, in this context. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating but to do with tyrrany. If one looks at this shabad in the context of which it was written, i.e. the invasion of Timur the shabads true meaning becomes apparent.

Kabir ji was a remarkable man and his shabads are probably the least understood in Bani, although most quoted.

If you look at the History of when he grew up, he witnessed like Guru Nanak (invasion by Babur) a Muslim invasion by Timur, and incredible death and destruction.

Memoirs of an Islamist - Timur

Massacres in Varnasi were on a Massive scale. He witnesses so called religious holymen/Mullahs and Shaykhs killing people in the name of God. When Kabir ji is saying this:



at the back of his mind is this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/742629/posts


You can imagine this young devout Muslim, witnessing, so called fellow Muslims massacring his innocent Hindu neighbours. Probably people he knew. This must have had a profound effect on him.

Here:

Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.

Here Kabir ji is clearly saying, look Oh Mullah we are all the same, whether we are Hindu or Muslim.

This shabad is in no way about dining habits.

May be hunting is for martial training , but then what about practice of Chatka?

Here is something from amarnamah

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is clear from what transpired on September 03, 1708, the day of the solar eclipse, that, eventually Banda's objection to submitting to the Guru was on the single point of vegetarianism. The Guru decided to wait no longer. The master psychologist that he was, he forced the issue in such a manner that Banda would have to make the final choice in the matter of accepting him as the Guru. Anticipating what was to come he did not distribute any cattle to the Lombadas on that day.

The Guru ordered his Sikhs to get ready to visit Banda's place. On reaching there they found him absent. The Guru gave instruction to slaughter Banda's goats, which was immediately complied with. The jungle-folk knew from experience that the meat was meant for them, and came immediately to wait upon the Guru in anticipation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

WjkK Wjkf,
Just want to share my expieriences
One day I was in a Cornfield , I just sat there and meditate on the formless one Akal Purakh - I was really in Bliss - I just felt - I cannot describe with words. Maybe I was in unison with God? I dont know and I cant tell you. So I started looking around myself - sitting in media of the Cornfield - and I saw how the Corn was twirled by the wind. I was fascinated - I felt the whole Cornfield each and every corn - I saw live in it - First time I realised it that the corn has live as well - I felt everything around me every sense the earth the grass everything. From this time I realised I am a hypocrite - I am blind. I was just focused on beings that I see with my eyes and hear with my ears... And that was wrong - I realised that the SAME life is in everything - and that made me feel and think... It is the same living I eat for my "food" , the same essence , but it isn´t apparent like the animals... I can´t see it with my "eyes". I felt my self such an hypocrite thinking that I am better than others - eating vegetarian food - but I realised this falsehood... Where does I differ from animals or other (Human) Beinges, what makes me better? Nothing, it is just the understanding/feeling/embracement( I don´t have any word for this ) of the One immaculate formless Creator - I have the One chance - to realise him. This is very deep.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
After that I rememberd the Shabad by Guru ji :

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
ਵੇਖੁ ਜਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਟਿਆ ਕਟਿ ਕੁਟਿ ਬਧਾ ਪਾਇ ॥
ਖੁੰਢਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਰਖਿ ਕੈ ਦੇਨਿ ਸੁ ਮਲ ਸਜਾਇ ॥
ਰਸੁ ਕਸੁ ਟਟਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਪੈ ਤੈ ਵਿਲਲਾਇ ॥
ਭੀ ਸੋ ਫੋਗੁ ਸਮਾਲੀਐ ਦਿਚੈ ਅਗਿ ਜਾਲਾਇ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਠੈ ਪਤਰੀਐ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਕਾ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!

Page 143 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


And I understood more and more....
Again: I don´t want to change anyone ones dieties or attitue or something else - I just want to share was I experienced.
May Waheguru bless you all.

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh!

Ahimsa is the true way.