Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

BhagatSingh · #**1036** (**permalink**) 11-May-2012, 23:56 PM

Randip Singh ji,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randip Singh

Sin lies in causing suffering?

Yes

Quote:

1) My personal trainer causes me suffering
2) I caused my wife suffering by impregnating her and making her give birth to children
3)I cause suffering to my staff by making them work at weekends
4) The Guru's caused suffering by slaying people in battle.

No offence but your argument sounds like Vaishnavism not Sikhism.

Suffering, pain, hardship, death are all part of living.

5) She went out and murdered someone because "Suffering, pain, hardship, death are all part of living."
6) Americans nuked Hiroshima and Nagasakai because "Suffering, pain, hardship, death are all part of living."

See the problem yet?

In 1, 2 and 3, both parties agreed to the hardship. There is pain involved. Both parties have agreed to the level of pain and suffering. E.g. You chose that personal trainer. So if you are suffering and want it to stop just tell them to stop training you.

1-3 one party could simply end it. They have accepted whatever the consequences of their actions are.

4. Yes. This did cause suffering. Thousands of soldiers killed on both sides. Their life is ruined. Their family is now without sons, fathers, husbands, brothers, - lots of suffering.
But I think most Sikh would agree that it was necessary to prevent a lot more suffering that would have been created if the wars were not fought if this amount of suffering was not created. The Mughals would justify it on similar terms. So even though immense amounts of suffering is created, both parties have consented.

Now compare this to other animals. The ones we slaughter, they have not consented. They have not agreed to that level of pain and suffering.

This is Kabir's line of reasoning. He would call this tyranny. ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥ Mullah, to use force is tyranny even if you call it halal/permissible. ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਂਗੀਐ ਤਬ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੮੭॥ When your account is called for, you will be in a terrible position. ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ ॥ Eat rice instead, it is very tasty when flavoured with salt. ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥ Who would cut his own throat to have meat with his bread? (Rhetorical for, no one consents to having their throat cut just to someone could have meat with their bread.)

So after talking about God and his experience with Him. He turns to the Mullah and asks:

ਕਬੀਰ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਮੁਨਾਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਚਢਹਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਨ ਬਹਰਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
कबीर मुलां मुनारे किआ चढहि सांई न बहरा होइ ॥
Kabīr mulāŉ munāre ki▫ā cẖadẖėh sāŉ▫ī na bahrā ho▫e.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
ਮੁਲਾਂ = ਹੇ ਮੁੱਲਾਂ! ਕਿਆ ਚਢਹਿ = ਚੜ੍ਹਨ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਫ਼ਾਇਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ। ਮੁਨਾਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਚਢਹਿ = ਮੁਨਾਰੇ ਉਤੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਨ ਦਾ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਭ ਨਹੀਂ, ਬਾਂਗ ਦੇਣ ਦਾ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਫ਼ਾਇਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ। ਬਹਰਾ = ਬੋਲਾ (ਨੋਟ: ਬੋਲੇ ਨੂੰ ਉੱਚੀ ਕੂਕ ਕੇ ਆਦਰ-ਪਿਆਰ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਆਖ ਕੇ, ਪਰ ਹੌਲੀ ਹੌਲੀ ਗਾਲ੍ਹਾਂ ਕੱਢ ਕੇ ਠੱਗ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਰੱਬ ਤਾਂ ਦਿਲ ਦੀ ਹਾਲਤ ਭੀ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਠੱਗਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ)।
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! ਹੇ ਮੁੱਲਾਂ! ਮਸਜਿਦ ਦੇ ਮੁਨਾਰੇ ਉਤੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਨ ਦਾ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਕੋਈ ਫ਼ਾਇਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ। ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਬੋਲਾ ਨਹੀਂ (ਉਹ ਤੇਰੇ ਦਿਲ ਦੀ ਹਾਲਤ ਭੀ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਠੱਗਿਆ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ)।

ਜਾ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਤੂੰ ਬਾਂਗ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਿਲ ਹੀ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਜੋਇ ॥੧੮੪॥
जा कारनि तूं बांग देहि दिल ही भीतरि जोइ ॥१८४॥
Jā kāran ṯūŉ bāŉg ḏėh ḏil hī bẖīṯar jo▫e. ||184||
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. ||184||
ਜਾ ਕਾਰਨਿ = ਜਿਸ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ। ਜੋਇ = ਵੇਖ, ਢੂੰਢ ॥੧੮੪॥
ਜਿਸ (ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਨਮਾਜ਼) ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ ਤੂੰ ਬਾਂਗ ਦੇ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਵੇਖ (ਤੇਰੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਹੀ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ। ਤੇਰੇ ਆਪਣੇ, ਅੰਦਰ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ, ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਸੱਦ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ) ॥੧੮੪॥

ਸੇਖ ਸਬੂਰੀ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੇ ਜਾਇ ॥
सेख सबूरी बाहरा किआ हज काबे जाइ ॥
Sekẖ sabūrī bāhrā ki▫ā haj kābe jā▫e.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
ਸਬੂਰੀ = ਸੰਤੋਖ।
ਹੇ ਸ਼ੇਖ! ਜੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਕਾਬੇ ਦਾ ਹੱਜ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਜਾਣ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਭ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ;

ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦਿਲ ਸਾਬਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਾਂ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥੧੮੫॥
कबीर जा की दिल साबति नही ता कउ कहां खुदाइ ॥१८५॥
Kabīr jā kī ḏil sābaṯ nahī ṯā ka▫o kahāŉ kẖuḏā▫e. ||185||
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? ||185||
ਦਿਲ ਸਾਬਤਿ = ਦਿਲ ਦੀ ਸਾਬਤੀ, ਦਿਲ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ, ਅਡੋਲਤਾ। ਤਾ ਕਉ = ਉਸ ਦੇ ਭਾਣੇ। ਕਹਾ ਖੁਦਾਇ = ਰੱਬ ਕਿਤੇ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ॥੧੮੫॥
ਕਿਉਂਕਿ, ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਰੱਬ ਕਿਤੇ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ॥੧੮੫॥

ਕਬੀਰ ਅਲਹ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
कबीर अलह की करि बंदगी जिह सिमरत दुखु जाइ ॥
Kabīr alah kī kar banḏagī jih simraṯ ḏukẖ jā▫e.
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
xxx
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਕਰ, ਬੰਦਗੀ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਹੀ ਦਿਲ ਦਾ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਦੂਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ,

ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਪਰਗਟੈ ਬੁਝੈ ਬਲੰਤੀ ਨਾਂਇ ॥੧੮੬॥
दिल महि सांई परगटै बुझै बलंती नांइ ॥१८६॥
Ḏil mėh sāŉ▫ī pargatai bujẖai balanṯī nāŉ▫e. ||186||
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. ||186||
ਬਲੰਤੀ = ਬਲਦੀ ਅੱਗ, ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਦੀ ਬਲਦੀ ਅੱਗ। ਨਾਂਇ = ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ॥੧੮੬॥
ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਬ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਹੂਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਲਾਲਚ ਦੀ ਬਲਦੀ ਅੱਗ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਬੁੱਝ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ॥੧੮੬॥

Now here Kabir Sahib makes this argument that I put forth to you.

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥
कबीर जोरी कीए जुलमु है कहता नाउ हलालु ॥
Kabīr jorī kī▫e julam hai kahṯā nā▫o halāl.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ = ਧੱਕਾ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ। ਹਲਾਲੁ = ਜਾਇਜ਼, ਭੇਟਾ ਕਰਨ-ਯੋਗ, ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ।
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਮੁੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦੱਸ ਕਿ) ਕਿਸੇ ਉਤੇ ਧੱਕਾ ਕਰਨਾ ਜ਼ੁਲਮ ਹੈ, (ਤੂੰ ਜਾਨਵਰ ਨੂੰ ਫੜ ਕੇ ਬਿਸਮਿੱਲਾ ਆਖ ਕੇ ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਅਤੇ) ਤੂੰ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਕਿ ਇਹ (ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾਨਵਰ) ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ (ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਨਾਲ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਉਤੇ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ); (ਪਰ ਇਹ ਮਾਸ ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਖਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈਂ। ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੀਂਦੇ, ਕਦੇ ਸੋਚ ਕਿ)

ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਂਗੀਐ ਤਬ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੮੭॥
दफतरि लेखा मांगीऐ तब होइगो कउनु हवालु ॥१८७॥
Ḏafṯar lekẖā māŉgī▫ai ṯab ho▫igo ka▫un havāl. ||187||
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||
xxx ॥੧੮੭॥
ਜਦੋਂ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਮਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਹਿਸਾਬ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਤਾਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੀਹ ਹਾਲ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ॥੧੮੭॥

ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ ॥
कबीर खूबु खाना खीचरी जा महि अम्रितु लोनु ॥
Kabīr kẖūb kẖānā kẖīcẖrī jā mėh amriṯ lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ = ਚੰਗੀ ਖ਼ੁਰਾਕ। ਲੋਨੁ = ਲੂਣ।
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਮੁੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬੇਸ਼ੱਕ ਆਖ ਕਿ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇ ਬਹਾਨੇ ਮਾਸ ਖਾਣ ਨਾਲੋਂ) ਖਿਚੜੀ ਖਾ ਲੈਣੀ ਚੰਗੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਸੁਆਦਲਾ ਲੂਣ ਹੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੋਵੇ।

ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥
हेरा रोटी कारने गला कटावै कउनु ॥१८८॥
Herā rotī kārne galā katāvai ka▫un. ||188||
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||
ਹੇਰਾ = ਮਾਸ। ਕਾਰਨੇ = ਗ਼ਰਜ਼ ਨਾਲ, ਨਿਯਤ ਨਾਲ। ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ = ਮੈਂ ਕੱਟਣ ਨੂੰ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ॥੧੮੮॥
ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਲਈ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਮਾਸ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਣ ਦੀ ਨਿਯਤ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਹੋਵੇ ਪਰ (ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦਾ ਹੋਕਾ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਪਸ਼ੂ ਨੂੰ) ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਫਿਰਾਂ ॥੧੮੮॥

ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਲਾਗਾ ਤਬ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਮਿਟੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਤਨ ਤਾਪ ॥
कबीर गुरु लागा तब जानीऐ मिटै मोहु तन ताप ॥
Kabīr gur lāgā ṯab jānī▫ai mitai moh ṯan ṯāp.
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
ਤਬ ਜਾਨੀਐ = ਤਦੋਂ ਜਾਣੋ, ਤਦੋਂ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਸਮਝੋ। ਗੁਰੁ ਲਾਗਾ = ਗੁਰੂ ਪੁੱਕਰਿਆ ਹੈ, ਮਿਲ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ। ਤਨ ਤਾਪ = ਸਰੀਰ ਦੇ ਕਲੇਸ਼, ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਸਾੜਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੁੱਖ-ਕਲੇਸ਼।
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਜਨੇਊ ਆਦਿਕ ਪਾ ਕੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਫਲਾਣੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਧਾਰ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ; ਪਰ) ਤਦੋਂ ਸਮਝੋ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਜਦੋਂ (ਗੁਰੂ ਧਾਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਮਾਇਆ ਦਾ ਮੋਹ ਦੂਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਏ, ਜਦੋਂ ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਸਾੜਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਕਲੇਸ਼ ਮਿਟ ਜਾਣ।

ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਦਾਝੈ ਨਹੀ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਹਿ ਆਪਿ ॥੧੮੯॥
हरख सोग दाझै नही तब हरि आपहि आपि ॥१८९॥
Harakẖ sog ḏājẖai nahī ṯab har āpėh āp. ||189||
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself. ||189||
ਹਰਖ = ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ੀ। ਸੋਗ = ਚਿੰਤਾ। ਦਾਝੈ ਨਹੀ = ਨਾਹ ਸਾੜੇ। ਆਪਹਿ ਆਪ = ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਆਪ ਦਿੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੧੮੯॥
ਜਦੋਂ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਚਿੱਤ ਨੂੰ ਨਾਹ ਸਾੜੇ, ਅਜੇਹੀ ਹਾਲਤ ਵਿਚ ਅੱਪੜਿਆਂ ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਆਪ ਦਿੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੧੮੯॥

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The context of the shabad is quite clear. It is addressed to a Mullah and his practice of 1. climbing to a high location to worship God, 2. going to Mecca and 3. slaughtering animals. Kabir ji points out the problem with each of these practices and gives solutions.

1. He says to look within yourself instead.
2. There is no use of going to Mecca if you are not content. Meditate on Allah and become content with yourself (first).
3. Use of force to slaughter animals is tyranny. Eat kichree instead. When flavoured with salt it is like amrit.

Fact: Kabir ji was a Vaishnav. So if his argument sounds like Vaishnavism to you, good for you. This argument also happens to appear in Sikh scriptures (and on more than one occasion) so per my knowledge it is also a Sikh argument.
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Quote:

Nonsense!!! So let me see, this shabad is saying that the Pandit is going around killing being and is a butcher and thats bad? A Pandit is a butcher....errr right?

Hahaha, try harder.

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? (Rhetorical for, killing is unrighteous)
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2|| (Rhetorical for, you are not a sage because you do unrighteous deeds)

Quote:

Your argument would be correct for the one fact it makes no sense.......... because you keep dismembering the shabads to suit what YOU believe. You don't read the shabads in context and you've done it again. The authors are spot on, and you haven't presented one iota of evidence to change my mind.

It's fact of life that even if I did, you would still say the same thing. The circuits in our brain strengthen as we get older. Your mind is rooted in your brain, which is a physical entity. In order for me to change your mind I'd have to cause enormous amounts of physical changes to your brain. It is very difficult to do to an older brain. So I am not even going to bother. I will reply to everything you say but not expecting to change anything. It's for myself only.

Quote:

Infact any doubts I had about the authors have been dispelled and my dismay at how vegetarians will twist bani for a particular agenda have left me dumbfounded.

People in their intentions always try and get the best interpretation of bani. Plus, we need not concern ourselves with what vegetarians say, we should only look to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**1037** (**permalink**) 12-May-2012, 10:20 AM

we should all give up EATING and live on Air (make sure all bateria are filtered out).
People here are simply IGNORING the IMMENSE "suffering" caused by the Pesticides in AGRICULTURE..that seeps into ground water causing horrible cancers in humans, animals, horrors of DAIRY FARMING..insects birds etc being horribly maimed, birth defects etc etc..birds disappearing or being killed off..all this "suffering" is not Visible..BUT IT was to GURU NANAK JI...hence the SUGAR CANE SHABAD...and Clearly telling us that there is NO DIFFERENCE between SAAG and MAAS...but we refuse point blank becasue we are BLINDED by our own Perceptions/utube vidoes of halal slaughter..blah blah...Guru nanak Ji saw the Horrible Slaughter in Emnabaad by Babars Invading forces..and His heart cried out..and he cried out for the sugar cane as well..BUT NOT US,,we CANT HEAR the Sugar cane..only the COW..so sad...such Conditional "crying" at so called suffering..such CHOOSING and selective crying..its total HYPOCRACY.....Jeta KITAA teta NAU..HE is IN EVERYTHING...so STOP EATING HIM.PERIOD. GIVE UP YOUR STOMACH first IF you think you love HIM that MUCH.japposatnamwaheguru:

Randip Singh · #**1038** (**permalink**) 12-May-2012, 13:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Randip Singh ji,

Yes

5) She went out and murdered someone because "Suffering, pain, hardship, death are all part of living."
6) Americans nuked Hiroshima and Nagasakai because "Suffering, pain, hardship, death are all part of living."

See the problem yet?

In 1, 2 and 3, both parties agreed to the hardship. There is pain involved. Both parties have agreed to the level of pain and suffering. E.g. You chose that personal trainer. So if you are suffering and want it to stop just tell them to stop training you.

1-3 one party could simply end it. They have accepted whatever the consequences of their actions are.

4. Yes. This did cause suffering. Thousands of soldiers killed on both sides. Their life is ruined. Their family is now without sons, fathers, husbands, brothers, - lots of suffering.
But I think most Sikh would agree that it was necessary to prevent a lot more suffering that would have been created if the wars were not fought if this amount of suffering was not created. The Mughals would justify it on similar terms. So even though immense amounts of suffering is created, both parties have consented.

Now compare this to other animals. The ones we slaughter, they have not consented. They have not agreed to that level of pain and suffering.

You said suffering and pain was unjust, you did not attach condition to it, so now you are attaching conditions. Conditions you think are right?

In the divine order of things how do you know the "pain / suffering" (if it is indeed pain or suffering) to the animal doesn't involve both parties? The native American thinks Tatanka (buffalo) came out of the Earth to give them food i.e. he consented.

Are you really such an "excellent sage"

that you know the divine order of things? When Nanak describes a plant being crushed in rollers, is that the divine order of things? When you forcibly take the milk away from a cow and away from its calf is that the divine order of things?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

This is Kabir's line of reasoning. He would call this tyranny. ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥ Mullah, to use force is tyranny even if you call it halal/permissible. ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਂਗੀਐ ਤਬ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੮੭॥ When your account is called for, you will be in a terrible position. ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ ॥ Eat rice instead, it is very tasty when flavoured with salt. ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥ Who would cut his own throat to have meat with his bread? (Rhetorical for, no one consents to having their throat cut just to someone could have meat with their bread.)

So after talking about God and his experience with Him. He turns to the Mullah and asks:

ਕਬੀਰ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਮੁਨਾਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਚਢਹਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਨ ਬਹਰਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
कबीर मुलां मुनारे किआ चढहि सांई न बहरा होइ ॥
Kabīr mulāŉ munāre ki▫ā cẖadẖėh sāŉ▫ī na bahrā ho▫e.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
ਮੁਲਾਂ = ਹੇ ਮੁੱਲਾਂ! ਕਿਆ ਚਢਹਿ = ਚੜ੍ਹਨ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਫ਼ਾਇਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ। ਮੁਨਾਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਚਢਹਿ = ਮੁਨਾਰੇ ਉਤੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਨ ਦਾ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਭ ਨਹੀਂ, ਬਾਂਗ ਦੇਣ ਦਾ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਫ਼ਾਇਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ। ਬਹਰਾ = ਬੋਲਾ (ਨੋਟ: ਬੋਲੇ ਨੂੰ ਉੱਚੀ ਕੂਕ ਕੇ ਆਦਰ-ਪਿਆਰ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਆਖ ਕੇ, ਪਰ ਹੌਲੀ ਹੌਲੀ ਗਾਲ੍ਹਾਂ ਕੱਢ ਕੇ ਠੱਗ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਰੱਬ ਤਾਂ ਦਿਲ ਦੀ ਹਾਲਤ ਭੀ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਠੱਗਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ)।
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! ਹੇ ਮੁੱਲਾਂ! ਮਸਜਿਦ ਦੇ ਮੁਨਾਰੇ ਉਤੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਨ ਦਾ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਕੋਈ ਫ਼ਾਇਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ। ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਬੋਲਾ ਨਹੀਂ (ਉਹ ਤੇਰੇ ਦਿਲ ਦੀ ਹਾਲਤ ਭੀ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਠੱਗਿਆ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ)।

ਜਾ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਤੂੰ ਬਾਂਗ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਿਲ ਹੀ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਜੋਇ ॥੧੮੪॥
जा कारनि तूं बांग देहि दिल ही भीतरि जोइ ॥१८४॥
Jā kāran ṯūŉ bāŉg ḏėh ḏil hī bẖīṯar jo▫e. ||184||
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. ||184||
ਜਾ ਕਾਰਨਿ = ਜਿਸ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ। ਜੋਇ = ਵੇਖ, ਢੂੰਢ ॥੧੮੪॥
ਜਿਸ (ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਨਮਾਜ਼) ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ ਤੂੰ ਬਾਂਗ ਦੇ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਵੇਖ (ਤੇਰੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਹੀ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ। ਤੇਰੇ ਆਪਣੇ, ਅੰਦਰ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ, ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਸੱਦ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ) ॥੧੮੪॥

ਸੇਖ ਸਬੂਰੀ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੇ ਜਾਇ ॥
सेख सबूरी बाहरा किआ हज काबे जाइ ॥
Sekẖ sabūrī bāhrā ki▫ā haj kābe jā▫e.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
ਸਬੂਰੀ = ਸੰਤੋਖ।
ਹੇ ਸ਼ੇਖ! ਜੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਕਾਬੇ ਦਾ ਹੱਜ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਜਾਣ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਭ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ;

ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦਿਲ ਸਾਬਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਾਂ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥੧੮੫॥
कबीर जा की दिल साबति नही ता कउ कहां खुदाइ ॥१८५॥
Kabīr jā kī ḏil sābaṯ nahī ṯā ka▫o kahāŉ kẖuḏā▫e. ||185||
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? ||185||
ਦਿਲ ਸਾਬਤਿ = ਦਿਲ ਦੀ ਸਾਬਤੀ, ਦਿਲ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ, ਅਡੋਲਤਾ। ਤਾ ਕਉ = ਉਸ ਦੇ ਭਾਣੇ। ਕਹਾ ਖੁਦਾਇ = ਰੱਬ ਕਿਤੇ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ॥੧੮੫॥
ਕਿਉਂਕਿ, ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਰੱਬ ਕਿਤੇ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ॥੧੮੫॥

ਕਬੀਰ ਅਲਹ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
कबीर अलह की करि बंदगी जिह सिमरत दुखु जाइ ॥
Kabīr alah kī kar banḏagī jih simraṯ ḏukẖ jā▫e.
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
xxx
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਕਰ, ਬੰਦਗੀ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਹੀ ਦਿਲ ਦਾ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਦੂਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ,

ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਪਰਗਟੈ ਬੁਝੈ ਬਲੰਤੀ ਨਾਂਇ ॥੧੮੬॥
दिल महि सांई परगटै बुझै बलंती नांइ ॥१८६॥
Ḏil mėh sāŉ▫ī pargatai bujẖai balanṯī nāŉ▫e. ||186||
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. ||186||
ਬਲੰਤੀ = ਬਲਦੀ ਅੱਗ, ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਦੀ ਬਲਦੀ ਅੱਗ। ਨਾਂਇ = ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ॥੧੮੬॥
ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਬ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਹੂਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਲਾਲਚ ਦੀ ਬਲਦੀ ਅੱਗ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਬੁੱਝ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ॥੧੮੬॥

Now here Kabir Sahib makes this argument that I put forth to you.

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥
कबीर जोरी कीए जुलमु है कहता नाउ हलालु ॥
Kabīr jorī kī▫e julam hai kahṯā nā▫o halāl.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ = ਧੱਕਾ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ। ਹਲਾਲੁ = ਜਾਇਜ਼, ਭੇਟਾ ਕਰਨ-ਯੋਗ, ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ।
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਮੁੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦੱਸ ਕਿ) ਕਿਸੇ ਉਤੇ ਧੱਕਾ ਕਰਨਾ ਜ਼ੁਲਮ ਹੈ, (ਤੂੰ ਜਾਨਵਰ ਨੂੰ ਫੜ ਕੇ ਬਿਸਮਿੱਲਾ ਆਖ ਕੇ ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਅਤੇ) ਤੂੰ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਕਿ ਇਹ (ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾਨਵਰ) ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ (ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਨਾਲ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਉਤੇ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ); (ਪਰ ਇਹ ਮਾਸ ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਖਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈਂ। ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੀਂਦੇ, ਕਦੇ ਸੋਚ ਕਿ)

ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਂਗੀਐ ਤਬ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੮੭॥
दफतरि लेखा मांगीऐ तब होइगो कउनु हवालु ॥१८७॥
Ḏafṯar lekẖā māŉgī▫ai ṯab ho▫igo ka▫un havāl. ||187||
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||
xxx ॥੧੮੭॥
ਜਦੋਂ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਮਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਹਿਸਾਬ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਤਾਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੀਹ ਹਾਲ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ॥੧੮੭॥

ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ ॥
कबीर खूबु खाना खीचरी जा महि अम्रितु लोनु ॥
Kabīr kẖūb kẖānā kẖīcẖrī jā mėh amriṯ lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ = ਚੰਗੀ ਖ਼ੁਰਾਕ। ਲੋਨੁ = ਲੂਣ।
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਮੁੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬੇਸ਼ੱਕ ਆਖ ਕਿ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇ ਬਹਾਨੇ ਮਾਸ ਖਾਣ ਨਾਲੋਂ) ਖਿਚੜੀ ਖਾ ਲੈਣੀ ਚੰਗੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਸੁਆਦਲਾ ਲੂਣ ਹੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੋਵੇ।

ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥
हेरा रोटी कारने गला कटावै कउनु ॥१८८॥
Herā rotī kārne galā katāvai ka▫un. ||188||
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||
ਹੇਰਾ = ਮਾਸ। ਕਾਰਨੇ = ਗ਼ਰਜ਼ ਨਾਲ, ਨਿਯਤ ਨਾਲ। ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ = ਮੈਂ ਕੱਟਣ ਨੂੰ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ॥੧੮੮॥
ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਲਈ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਮਾਸ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਣ ਦੀ ਨਿਯਤ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਹੋਵੇ ਪਰ (ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦਾ ਹੋਕਾ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਪਸ਼ੂ ਨੂੰ) ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਫਿਰਾਂ ॥੧੮੮॥

ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਲਾਗਾ ਤਬ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਮਿਟੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਤਨ ਤਾਪ ॥
कबीर गुरु लागा तब जानीऐ मिटै मोहु तन ताप ॥
Kabīr gur lāgā ṯab jānī▫ai mitai moh ṯan ṯāp.
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
ਤਬ ਜਾਨੀਐ = ਤਦੋਂ ਜਾਣੋ, ਤਦੋਂ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਸਮਝੋ। ਗੁਰੁ ਲਾਗਾ = ਗੁਰੂ ਪੁੱਕਰਿਆ ਹੈ, ਮਿਲ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ। ਤਨ ਤਾਪ = ਸਰੀਰ ਦੇ ਕਲੇਸ਼, ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਸਾੜਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੁੱਖ-ਕਲੇਸ਼।
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਜਨੇਊ ਆਦਿਕ ਪਾ ਕੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਫਲਾਣੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਧਾਰ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ; ਪਰ) ਤਦੋਂ ਸਮਝੋ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਜਦੋਂ (ਗੁਰੂ ਧਾਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਮਾਇਆ ਦਾ ਮੋਹ ਦੂਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਏ, ਜਦੋਂ ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਸਾੜਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਕਲੇਸ਼ ਮਿਟ ਜਾਣ।

ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਦਾਝੈ ਨਹੀ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਹਿ ਆਪਿ ॥੧੮੯॥
हरख सोग दाझै नही तब हरि आपहि आपि ॥१८९॥
Harakẖ sog ḏājẖai nahī ṯab har āpėh āp. ||189||
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself. ||189||
ਹਰਖ = ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ੀ। ਸੋਗ = ਚਿੰਤਾ। ਦਾਝੈ ਨਹੀ = ਨਾਹ ਸਾੜੇ। ਆਪਹਿ ਆਪ = ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਆਪ ਦਿੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੧੮੯॥
ਜਦੋਂ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਚਿੱਤ ਨੂੰ ਨਾਹ ਸਾੜੇ, ਅਜੇਹੀ ਹਾਲਤ ਵਿਚ ਅੱਪੜਿਆਂ ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਆਪ ਦਿੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੧੮੯॥

--------------------------------

The context of the shabad is quite clear. It is addressed to a Mullah and his practice of 1. climbing to a high location to worship God, 2. going to Mecca and 3. slaughtering animals. Kabir ji points out the problem with each of these practices and gives solutions.

1. He says to look within yourself instead.
2. There is no use of going to Mecca if you are not content. Meditate on Allah and become content with yourself (first).
3. Use of force to slaughter animals is tyranny. Eat kichree instead. When flavoured with salt it is like amrit.

Fact: Kabir ji was a Vaishnav. So if his argument sounds like Vaishnavism to you, good for you. This argument also happens to appear in Sikh scriptures (and on more than one occasion) so per my knowledge it is also a Sikh argument.
================================================== =========

Hahaha, try harder.

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? (Rhetorical for, killing is unrighteous)
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2|| (Rhetorical for, you are not a sage because you do unrighteous deeds)

It's fact of life that even if I did, you would still say the same thing. The circuits in our brain strengthen as we get older. Your mind is rooted in your brain, which is a physical entity. In order for me to change your mind I'd have to cause enormous amounts of physical changes to your brain. It is very difficult to do to an older brain. So I am not even going to bother. I will reply to everything you say but not expecting to change anything. It's for myself only.

People in their intentions always try and get the best interpretation of bani. Plus, we need not concern ourselves with what vegetarians say, we should only look to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Flawed flawed and flawed again. Kabir Ji is talking about the futility of animal sacrifice to God. It makes no sense. He's not talking about suffrering at all. Also you realise That Kabir is talking about the invasion of Timur in the Beans flavoured with salt shabad? You understand the context of that don't you?

Kabir ji was a remarkable man and his shabads are probably the least understood in Bani, although most quoted.

If you look at the History of when he grew up, he witnessed like Guru Nanak (inavsion by Babur) a Muslim invasion (invasion by Timur), and incredible death and destruction.

Memoirs of an Islamist - Timur

Quote:

125,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiru-d din ‘Umar, a counsellor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives.

Massacres in Varnasi were on a Massive scale. When Kabir ji is saying this:

Quote:

Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

at the back of his mind is this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/742629/posts

Quote:

Massacre of 125,000 Hindus At this Court Amir Jahan Shah and Amir Sulaiman Shah, and other amirs of experience, brought to my notice that, from the time of entering Hindustan up to the present time, we had taken more than 125,000 infidels and Hindus prisoners, and that they were all in my camp. On the previous day, when the enemy’s forces made the attack upon us, the prisoners made signs of rejoicing, uttered imprecations against us, and were ready, as soon as they heard of the enemy’s success, to form themselves into a body, break their bonds, plunder our tents, and then to go and join the enemy, and so increase his [p. 53] numbers and strength. I asked their advice about the prisoners, and they said that on the great day of battle these 125,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and foes of Islam at liberty. In fact, no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword. When I heard these words I found them in accord with the rules of war, and I directly gave my command for the Tawachis to proclaim throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners was to put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 125,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiru-d din ‘Umar, a counsellor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives.

You can imagine this young devout Muslim, witnessing, so called fellow Muslims massacring his innocent Hindu neighbours. Probably people he knew. This must have had a profound effect on him. Similar Guru Nanak in Babur Bani.

It is this tyranny Kabir is talking about, not some stupid chicken. :p

Also that is not the context of the Shabad, because in this context Halal and Bismil refer to a specific thing, i.e. sacrifice. There is no mention of pain hardship etc. It talks about the futility of these purificaction rituals the mullahs are engagaed in.

Kabir may have been a Vaishnav (incidently he was born into a Muslim family) but Sikhs are not Vaishnavs? Why not follow all the teachings of Sheikh Farid and call ourselves Muslims?

Sorry flawed from begining to end. So long as you keep that vegetarian bias in your head and keep pulling one liners out it simply makes no sense.

I don't think I can add nything more to this the rest is up to you to learn and find out.

From the essay:

Again, let us put this into context:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai.
mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.
tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. rahaa-o.
pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.
jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa.
ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.
ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa.
tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.
kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?
O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?
The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. Pause
You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.
The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed?
And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?
Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca?
You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.
Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

First point to note is that halaal and bismil, does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of ritual slaughter. Put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate Gods asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul wont travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.
kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.
divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.
kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.
gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

PS When I said this sounded more like Vaishnavism I meant YOUR interpretation was more akin to Vaishnavism.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**1039** (**permalink**) 12-May-2012, 17:26 PM

I mean just how many of the vasihnavites here actually..EAT ONLY KICHHRREE with salt as a STAPLE DIET ?? I think its mere and empty Talk. Kichhrree is a Dish cooked for SICK PEOPLE....recommended by Doctors for sick patients...to recover from a sickness..
Remember Kabir said..KHOOB kahnna khichhrree..it means STAPLE DIET...because KHOOB means..KHOOB.....look it up !! a person who KHOOB eats khichhrree has to eat it daily...and we cannot DIVERSIFY ..Probabaly Kabir ji followed his own advise..BUT certainly not those who use this one liner OUT OF CONTEXT.

BhagatSingh · #**1040** (**permalink**) 13-May-2012, 08:18 AM

Randip Singh ji,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randip Singh

You said suffering and pain was unjust, you did not attach condition to it, so now you are attaching conditions. Conditions you think are right?

In the divine order of things how do you know the "pain / suffering" (if it is indeed pain or suffering) to the animal doesn't involve both parties? The native American thinks Tatanka (buffalo) came out of the Earth to give them food i.e. he consented.

Are you really such an "excellent sage"

that you know the divine order of things?

Yes I do that part-time

What is an excellent sage? One who knows the divine order? But your definition of divine order in no different to the natural order of things. Are you saying that the divine order is the same as the natural order?

People think different things, but we should listen to the divine order expressed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Quote:

When Nanak describes a plant being crushed in rollers, is that the divine order of things? When you forcibly take the milk away from a cow and away from its calf is that the divine order of things?

Guru Nanak Dev ji is talking about human attachment in the shabad. I tell you these authors are pretty horrible at interpreting shabads. Then they accuse the original translators of doing it wrong. It's like Ulta chor kotwal ko dante

But it is probably true that plant feels some level of suffering. I am saying what animals ( and humans) experience is much greater in magnitude because they have a (higher) consciousness. Imagine a volume knob of sin, pain and suffering rather than on and off switches. Instead of black and white, imagine shades of grey.

What Punjabi Espada ji keeps brining up then is very relevant to the thread. In modern factory farming, not only is there suffering created by killing the animal but also while the animal is alive. It's hell for the animal. Kabir ji is strictly speaking about the former kind but it is very much related to the latter.

Quote:

Flawed flawed and flawed again.

Naiga dewalf, dewalf and dewalf... nope didn't work.
Saying it three times doesn't make it so. Not even when you say it backwards.

Quote:

Kabir Ji is talking about the futility of animal sacrifice to God. It makes no sense.

Animal sacrifice to God is adharam not because something is being offered to God (which is a good thing, it is Dharam) but because something is illegitimately being offered to God. Life that is not yours is being taken away from who it belongs, the animal, then offered to God. THAT is unrighteous. When talking about animal sacrifice he says "You murder living things and worship lifeless things, you will feel immense pain in the end." 332

To the Pandit he says, If it is righteous to kill animal for worship then what is unrigheous. If you call yourself a sage because you kill living things, then who would call a butcher? Kabir ji is comparing the pandit to a butcher, to what he considers an unrighteous profession.

In contrast, when you offer your own possesssions and life to God that is righteous (pg 20, 28, 31, and so on).

Quote:

He's not talking about suffrering at all. Also you realise That Kabir is talking about the invasion of Timur in the Beans flavoured with salt shabad? You understand the context of that don't you?

Why is the invasion of Timur unrighteous?

Quote:

Kabir may have been a Vaishnav (incidently he was born into a Muslim family) but Sikhs are not Vaishnavs? Why not follow all the teachings of Sheikh Farid and call ourselves Muslims?

We follow those teachings laid out in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, whether they be Vaishnav of Sufi.

Quote:

From the essay:

First point to note is that halaal and bismil[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial], does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of ritual slaughter.

Oh right because slaughter is not killing?
Kabir ji is against ritual slaughter because it involves killing animals. Otherwise he would not criticize pandits, who he compared to a butcher. A butcher does not do a ritual slaughter nor slaughters an animal and offers it to God, he simply slaughters the animal, and sells the meat.

Quote:

From the essay:

[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever.

ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥
हेरा रोटी कारने गला कटावै कउनु ॥१८८॥
Herā rotī kārne galā katāvai ka▫un. ||188|
Wrong. Hayra means "meat obtained from a hunt". Hayra roti means "roti with meat". Check your dictionary.

Jesus, that essay is messed up. Stop posting it everywhere, especially when I have shown it to be wrong. Put forth your own understanding and discuss what you think Gurbani is talking about. Stop using the essay as a crutch. It's a broken one. If anything we should be fixing that essay so it is at least accurate when it comes to gurbani interpretaions and gurmukhi words.

Randip Singh · #**1041** (**permalink**) 13-May-2012, 13:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Randip Singh ji,

Jesus, that essay is messed up. Stop posting it everywhere, especially when I have shown it to be wrong. Put forth your own understanding and discuss what you think Gurbani is talking about. Stop using the essay as a crutch. It's a broken one. If anything we should be fixing that essay so it is at least accurate when it comes to gurbani interpretaions and gurmukhi words.

The essay is fine, it is your vegetarian bias and pulling out one liners that is messed up.

The reason why you and Espanada burn up is for one reason only. Egotism. You can't stand the fact that other people can make informed choices. People are capable of going on to Youtube and finding videos themselves. We are adults. Monsanto and Peta are flip sides of the same coin, but that is not the debate here.

I think I've added as much as I can. I think the debate is becoming a bit ridiculous now. I bow out on that note.

I can't debate with people if they do not understand the basics.

I think this says it all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Why is the invasion of Timur unrighteous?

Now that IS messed up

PS And if you think Halal and Bismil just means to kill then I can't help you.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**1042** (**permalink**) 13-May-2012, 15:30 PM

The ESSAY is definitely NOT "messed" up...its the BEST essay ever on SPN (or elsewhere)...if the 10GB mailbox that got filled up is anything to check by......No one has ever succeeded better in exorcising the ghost of vasihanvites misinterpreting Gurbani than the writers of this essay. It MUST remain as it is on SPN.

Randip Singh · #**1043** (**permalink**) 13-May-2012, 15:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh

The ESSAY is definitely NOT "messed" up...its the BEST essay ever on SPN (or elsewhere)...if the 10GB mailbox that got filled up is anything to check by......No one has ever succeeded better in exorcising the ghost of vasihanvites misinterpreting Gurbani than the writers of this essay. It MUST remain as it is on SPN.

My personal view is that it is a very good essay but not perfect. I was asked to edit it and not contribute. If I was asked to contribute I would tweek certain bits, so as to make it far more easier to read for the average person. I may speak to the people who wrote it to see if I can add historical and backgrounds to the shabads.

We have a lot of youngsters on this site who don't understand/know the basics of Sikh history and hence the background of the shabads in Bani. They don't understand the metaphors. The attempts of people throughout the ages to amalgamate Sikhism in Vaishnavism. We have many groups like Radhaswami, AKJ, GNSSJ, DDT etc who are unbeknown/known as spouting Vaishnav dogma. We have to be on our guard of such things.

Vegetarianism, ritual, purity, sexism, biggotry etc are all facets found in India. All part of the problem, and not the cure.

Unitil we can look at things with pure objectivity and not be drwan in by our own biased views, we cannot move on.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**1044** (**permalink**) 13-May-2012, 17:34 PM

Randip Ji..i stand corrected..ONLY Dhur Ki bani is PERFECT.PERIOD.
Still..the Essay doesnt contain real "Flaws " of reasoning/logic/gurbani interpretation..thats all.