| Tags | chicken, confused, dairy, eat, flesh, fools, halal meat, haram, kutha meat, meat, meat and sikhism, meat eating, prodcuts, sikh, sikhism, sikhism practices, thread, veg, wrangle  | 
08-May-2012, 19:38 PM
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| |  | |  Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandemeet  Nanak only icluded Bani's of Bhaghats that were compatible with the Sikh view, or we may as well call our selves Kabir Panthi's. Infact why don't we call ourselves Kabir Panthis Randip Singh ji I went through these ebooks, I haven’t found a page of Sri Guru Granth Sahib where Kabir ji calls the woman a cobra; woman in Gurbani is referred as Nari, Kaman not Maya. Maya is deemed as everything that distracts us from Naam. On 480 and 329 pages, it is obviously clear that Maya is not referred to woman. 480 Sarpanī ṯe ūpar nahī balī▫ā. None is more powerful then mammon, the she-serpent, Jin barahmā bisan mahāḏe▫o cẖẖalī▫ā. ||1|| which deceived even the Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Mār mār sarpanī nirmal jal paiṯẖī. Beating and smiting all round the she-snake is now seated in the pure water. Jin ṯaribẖavaṇ dasī▫ale gur parsāḏ dīṯẖī. ||1|| rahā▫o. By Guru's grace, I have seen her who has bitten the three worlds. Pause. Sarpanī sarpanī ki▫ā kahhu bẖā▫ī. O brother, why callest thou mammon, a she snake? Jin sācẖ pacẖẖāni▫ā ṯin sarpanī kẖā▫ī. ||2|| He who realises the True Lord, devours a she-snake? Sarpanī ṯe ān cẖẖūcẖẖ nahī avrā. No one else is more trifling than mammon. Sarpanī jīṯī kahā karai jamrā. ||3|| When the she serpent if subdued what can the king of Death's couriers do? 329 Concept of Simiritis is deemed as Maya /serpent Beḏ kī puṯrī simriṯ bẖā▫ī. The Simriti is the daughter of the Vedas, O brother. Sāʼnkal jevrī lai hai ā▫ī. ||1|| She has brought a chain and a rope for the men. Āpan nagar āp ṯe bāḏẖi▫ā. Of herself, she has imprisoned them in her own city. Moh kai fāḏẖ kāl sar sāʼnḏẖi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. She has spread the noose of worldly love and discarded the arrow of death. Pause. Katī na katai ṯūt nah jā▫ī. By cutting she cannot be cut and is not broken, either. xxx Sā sāpan ho▫e jag ka▫o kẖā▫ī. ||2|| Becoming a serpent, she is eating the world. Ham ḏekẖaṯ jin sabẖ jag lūti▫ā. Who before my very eyes has plundered the whole world, Kaho Kabīr mai rām kahi cẖẖūti▫ā. ||3||30|| I have escaped from her by uttering the Lord's Name, Says Kabir. Similar views are expressed by our Guru as well 510 Mėhlā 3. 3rd Guru. Mā▫i▫ā ho▫ī nāgnī jagaṯ rahī laptā▫e. Mammon is a she-serpent, which is clinging to the world. Is kī sevā jo kare ṯis hī ka▫o fir kẖā▫e. He, who performs her service him she ultimately devours. xxx Gurmukẖ ko▫ī gārṛū ṯin mal ḏal lā▫ī pā▫e. Some rare Guru-ward is a snake-charmer and he has trampled and crushed her and thrown her under his feet. Nānak se▫ī ubre jė sacẖ rahe liv lā▫e. ||2|| Nanak, they alone are saved who remain absorbed in the True Lord's love. xxx I couldn’t find any quote by Bhagat Kabir in Sri Guru Granth Sahib that supports views of that intellectual you are referring to. That intellectual refers Maya as woman and misleads Sikhs. I may be inept in finding quotes on those ebooks; if you could please clearly give me page of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, we can see if that intellectual is taking Gurbani as you advocate on this thread (I mean in entirety). If we don’t find it, it is a disservice done to Sri Guru Granth Sahib by referring such idiotic views. Big names and holding phds did wrong justification to Bhagatas; Dr Sahib Singh proves them wrong in Guru Granth Darpan. I suggest you to check it yourself instead of depending on anyone; see the real quotes and read them in their entirety at your own. Following Sri Guru Granth Sahib, we remain Sikhs, it doesn’t matter if bani is written by any author; you cannot say following Kabir bani, we become Kabir Panthi, following Namdev's bani, we become Namdev panthi, because we are following Sri Guru Granth Sahib not any individual and all authors are well aligned with Guru Nanak’s views; if they didn’t, they wouldn’t be there in Sri Guru Granth Sahib . Comparing Guru Nanak with Kabir and finding different approach in them is a fallacy. You can simply see his bani in entirety and feel this . If you are bent upon depending on those articles instead of analyzing at your own discretion, I have nothing to say you further; No author of Sri Guru Granth Sahib goes against Guru Nanak and it is well proved by Dr Sahib Singh ji in detail. With regards mandemeet | What a frustrating thread. Point 1 - You are misreading what I am saying or have not understood. The Nanaks did not include all the Doha’s of Kabir. The verses I am referring to are NOT in Bani. Let me repeat Not in Bani. NOT in Bani. Let me repeat again NOT in Bani. J
Point 2 – There is nothing wrong with the articles I have posted. They are from intellectuals who have studied Kabir Bhaghats Doha’s, and when I have time I will find the exact link to that Doha where Kabir refers to Woman as Snake. They are not idiotic views, as you claim.
Point 3 – Why cannot the Snake be a male? Why does it have to be a Nagini? When Nanak says from Woman Kings are born so why call her evil, how does that fir in with Kabir Panthi doctrine? I think Nanak allowed this because it is a metaphor, rather than a direct reference by Bhaghat Kabir.
Point 4 – The Nanaks only included that of the Bhaghats that fitted in with Sikh philosophy. Not ALL Kabir’s Donha’s are included in Bani. I repeat again, NOT in Bani, Not in Bani. J
What is being advocated by the above discussion is that we follow the teachings of one Bhaghat. If we do that then we must follow all the writings of that Bhaghat. Many of the writings of Bhaghats not included in Bani do not fit in with Sikh doctrine. Do you understand what I am saying?
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__________________ Randip Singh
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Page 1289
Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Last edited by Randip Singh; 08-May-2012 at 19:40 PM.
Reason: format
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08-May-2012, 23:21 PM
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| | | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Just look at the historical facts about Sikhs eating meat. European travellers have noted down that Sikhs ate meat. Akali Phuala Singh ate meat (was he not a Sikh?). Read the Rehat Marayda.. it does not say you cannot eat meat. The Nihangs eat meat and always have (Sarbans Dhani Guru Gobind Singh Ji's ladlee fauj). Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html
The fact of the matter, this idea of rejecting meat to become pure etc etc blah blah... has been propagated by various baba's and jatha's who want get more followers and control people with fear... Take out the last 30 odd years from history when the Baba philosophy was not around, nobody said anything about eating or not eating meat... Even now in India, people do not talk about it like we do in the West.. Go and read the facts.. | | The following members appreciate BaljinderS Ji for the above message. | |
09-May-2012, 03:34 AM
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| |  | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Randip ji, Quote: |
Almost everywhere he links maya to a woman who is out to entice and entrap man, and destroy his spiritual life.
| I don't think the author has read Guru Arjan Dev ji's writings. He employs the same imagery as Bhagat Kabir ji on pg 847, 394.
Maya is feminine according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Guru Nanak Dev ji has also criticized women saying they only love a man for his wealth (951) and again on 1187, 1243. Guru Arjan Dev ji on 374. Quote: |
She is considered to be a hurdle in the path of the spiritual progress of man. He spoke, "woman ruins everything when she comes near a man; devotion, salvation and divine knowledge no longer enter his soul."
| The Gurus have also said such things.
Everyone who is not doing things right gets it from the the Gurus, no one is spared.
BaljinderS ji,
You are not listening to Randip ji. He says just because some figures in our history ate meat or were vegetarian does not mean we should follow them.
Last edited by BhagatSingh; 09-May-2012 at 03:42 AM.
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09-May-2012, 04:11 AM
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| | | |  Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaljinderS Just look at the historical facts about Sikhs eating meat. European travellers have noted down that Sikhs ate meat. Akali Phuala Singh ate meat (was he not a Sikh?). Read the Rehat Marayda.. it does not say you cannot eat meat. The Nihangs eat meat and always have (Sarbans Dhani Guru Gobind Singh Ji's ladlee fauj).
The fact of the matter, this idea of rejecting meat to become pure etc etc blah blah... has been propagated by various baba's and jatha's who want get more followers and control people with fear... Take out the last 30 odd years from history when the Baba philosophy was not around, nobody said anything about eating or not eating meat... Even now in India, people do not talk about it like we do in the West.. Go and read the facts.. | Indeed, vegetarianism in India has been used as a Brahmanical means of control. The Baba's use it. Various groups like AKJ, DDT, GNSSJ all advocate it. These groups also don't believe in the Rehat Maryada also and try and change the meaning of words in it.
Some of our Guru's ate meat some didn't. Their position was ambivalent and left it to the individual to choose.  | | The following members appreciate Randip Singh Ji for the above message. | |
09-May-2012, 10:52 AM
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| |  | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randip Singh
Point 1 - You are misreading what I am saying or have not understood. The Nanaks did not include all the Doha’s of Kabir. The verses I am referring to are NOT in Bani. Let me repeat Not in Bani. NOT in Bani. Let me repeat again NOT in Bani.
|
I am happy that you have made it clear, Bhagat Kabir’s Bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib doesn’t call woman cobra. You never mentioned it before, thanks though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randip Singh
Point 2 – There is nothing wrong with the articles I have posted. They are from intellectuals who have studied Kabir Bhaghats Doha’s, and when I have time I will find the exact link to that Doha where Kabir refers to Woman as Snake. They are not idiotic views, as you claim.
| The article is based on Kabir’s Dohas someone found it, but how sure we can be if it was actually written by Bhagat Kabir? If you search, many people wrote in the name of Nanak, but we accept what we find in Sri Guru Granth Sahib; whatever is there in those writings in the name of Nanak, we don’t care and believe in. Why we should believe Bhagat Kabir’s Dohas, which is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib? In the same manner, we don’t care what Kabir panthis believe or say. Look how respectfully Bhagat Kabir’s bani is introduced in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
ਸਿਰੀ ਰਾਗੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕਾ / ਆਸਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ॥ and so on Do you notice the respect the Guru gives to Bhagat Kabir? Kindly compare it with that intellectual who judges him and accusing him as anti woman just based on the floating around dohas? My all effort was to tell you not to look at Bhagat Kabir from outside Sri Guru Granth Sahib. If that is what you believe in, who I am to say anything to you? I am saying this all believing you to be an open minded and to rethink what others say about Bhagat Kabir based on “so called Dohas. Quote:
Originally Posted by Randip Singh
Point 3 – Why cannot the Snake be a male? Why does it have to be a Nagini? When Nanak says from Woman Kings are born so why call her evil, how does that fir in with Kabir Panthi doctrine? I think Nanak allowed this because it is a metaphor, rather than a direct reference by Bhaghat Kabir.
| Good question. The word “Maya” is feminine gender, Bhagat Kabir including the Gurus use it as feminine gender and that is why she snake (Nagni or Sarpani) words are used. No Bhagatas or author of Sri Guru Granth Sahib says anything against woman. No intellectual on this earth can prove it on the basis of Sri Guru Granth sahib. Quote:
Originally Posted by Randip Singh
Point 4 – The Nanaks only included that of the Bhaghats that fitted in with Sikh philosophy. Not ALL Kabir’s Donha’s are included in Bani. I repeat again, NOT in Bani, Not in Bani.
| “not in bani”, thanks again as you have made it clear “now”. We, as Sikhs, look at what is included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and what is floating out there is nothing for us. Quote:
Originally Posted by Randip Singh
What is being advocated by the above discussion is that we follow the teachings of one Bhaghat. If we do that then we must follow all the writings of that Bhaghat. Many of the writings of Bhaghats not included in Bani do not fit in with Sikh doctrine. Do you understand what I am saying?
| I do without a doubt. For us, our world is Bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib; what is in there, as Sikhs, we should follow that and what is not there, we shouldn’t. A Bhagat, whose bani is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, we have nothing to do with him. We look at bani in its entirety, the context in which it says something; there is nothing wrong following the bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib regardless of the author. We cannot say that this author was said to be so (by someone); therefore, we are not following him.
Personally, as I wrote earlier, eating meat is one’s own choice. I have no problem with your stand, or with those who don’t agree with you. I understand both parties from where they come from and I respect their views from my heart. My only concern is not to judge Bhagat Kabir on the basis of Dohras, which are not available in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. We reject many corrupt Punjabi Sikh sources or something written in the name of “Nanak” not aligned with Sri Guru Granth Sahib. I think you are very well aware how through a campaign, some people have turned a simple book “bachittar natak” into a big “Sri Guru Dasam Granth Sahib ji” and they befooled many and still are doing it. Keeping such prevailing tendencies in mind, we should also reject that too, which could be written by someone in the name of Bhagatas (who knows?), because what is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, only that is what we believe in.
With regards mandemeet | | The following members appreciate mandemeet Ji for the above message. | |
09-May-2012, 12:09 PM
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| | | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
There has always been attempt for intrusion of others Banee even in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but timely and intelligent action taken by our 5th Nanak GuRu Arjan Dev ji elliminated every chance of intrusion for ever.So we are greatly indebted to 5th Nanak for this but surprisinly we still fail to know How to understand What our GuRu wants us to. Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
Prakash.S.Bagga | | The following member appreciates prakash.s.bagga Ji for the above message. | |
09-May-2012, 16:22 PM
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| | | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by BhagatSingh Randip ji,
BaljinderS ji,
You are not listening to Randip ji. He says just because some figures in our history ate meat or were vegetarian does not mean we should follow them.
| Bhagat Singh veer ji,
**PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THIS THE WRONG WAY AROUND, I AM TRYING TO ENGAGE IN THE DEBATE**
Who should we follow? I am talking about historical figures (take out the last 50 years or so before history started to be tempered with). Far as I know there was no discussion on whether to eat or not eat meat. Listen to Giani Maskeen Singh Ji's katha on this topic.
Gurbani has very clearly stated that plants have life same as animals do. Who knows where the sin lies?
These various groups/babas advocating this... I would like to question them on their knowledge of Gurbani, Sikhi, history... 100% guarantee they will not have much to say.. as they have never really been interested in Sikhi (they know a few things to gather followers). Where did they get their education from? How many years have they spent studying?? Its funny really... the tabla, dolkee, shoes, are all made out of animal skin... along with many other products people use. Farming practices are killing and eradicating wild life. If they really care about animals, then why are they not asking their followers to plant trees, developing natures reserves etc etc..
We are all now educated and have allot of resources available to cross reference so we all should be well aware of the facts. | | The following members appreciate BaljinderS Ji for the above message. | |
09-May-2012, 17:23 PM
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| |  | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
a side note to the kabir Bani facts...as we all know recently the Begampura sheher vassauunna hai..NAVAN PANTH Chalaunna Hai lobby led by Miss Pooja as lead singer...went ahead to create tensions among the Ravidassiah Community as Vested Interests namely Dera Ballan chiefs and mahants wanted a SEPARATED RAVISASSIAH COMMUNITY to lord over..so these people wnet ahead and REMOVED the ONLY AUTHENTICATED Gurbani of Bahgat ravidass Ji from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and priinted a separate Granth for themsleves...and Installed THAT in their Temples...and they PADDED up this ratehr SMALL Granth with banis they claim are written by Bhagat ravidass ji...and Latets news..is having discovered thta their Granth LACKS the "LAVAN"..( How to get married without Lavan ?? ha ha )...so they composed a set of Lavan and claim these are Lavan of Bhagat Ravidass Ji...Pehlerri Laav..Doosree Laav, Teesri laav and Chauthhrre Laav... and so on on the same tarz as the Authentic Lavan written by GURU RAMDASS JI sahib...The Ravidassisahs NEVER used to read these Lavan before as they never existed..this is how adulterated banis come into granths...Soon they may "discover" that Bhagat Ravidass ji also wrote Kirtan Sohila..Rehrass..Japji Sahib..Anand sahib..Ramkali sadd etc etc..when the "vested interests" see ravidassihs demanding these Banis.. | | The following members appreciate Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji for the above message. | |
09-May-2012, 18:19 PM
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| | | | Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandemeet
I am happy that you have made it clear, Bhagat Kabir’s Bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib doesn’t call woman cobra. You never mentioned it before, thanks though.
The article is based on Kabir’s Dohas someone found it, but how sure we can be if it was actually written by Bhagat Kabir? If you search, many people wrote in the name of Nanak, but we accept what we find in Sri Guru Granth Sahib; whatever is there in those writings in the name of Nanak, we don’t care and believe in. Why we should believe Bhagat Kabir’s Dohas, which is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib? In the same manner, we don’t care what Kabir panthis believe or say. Look how respectfully Bhagat Kabir’s bani is introduced in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
ਸਿਰੀ ਰਾਗੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕਾ / ਆਸਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ॥ and so on
Do you notice the respect the Guru gives to Bhagat Kabir? Kindly compare it with that intellectual who judges him and accusing him as anti woman just based on the floating around dohas? My all effort was to tell you not to look at Bhagat Kabir from outside Sri Guru Granth Sahib. If that is what you believe in, who I am to say anything to you? I am saying this all believing you to be an open minded and to rethink what others say about Bhagat Kabir based on “so called Dohas.
Good question. The word “Maya” is feminine gender, Bhagat Kabir including the Gurus use it as feminine gender and that is why she snake (Nagni or Sarpani) words are used. No Bhagatas or author of Sri Guru Granth Sahib says anything against woman. No intellectual on this earth can prove it on the basis of Sri Guru Granth sahib.
“not in bani”, thanks again as you have made it clear “now”. We, as Sikhs, look at what is included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and what is floating out there is nothing for us.
I do without a doubt. For us, our world is Bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib; what is in there, as Sikhs, we should follow that and what is not there, we shouldn’t. A Bhagat, whose bani is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, we have nothing to do with him. We look at bani in its entirety, the context in which it says something; there is nothing wrong following the bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib regardless of the author. We cannot say that this author was said to be so (by someone); therefore, we are not following him.
Personally, as I wrote earlier, eating meat is one’s own choice. I have no problem with your stand, or with those who don’t agree with you. I understand both parties from where they come from and I respect their views from my heart. My only concern is not to judge Bhagat Kabir on the basis of Dohras, which are not available in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. We reject many corrupt Punjabi Sikh sources or something written in the name of “Nanak” not aligned with Sri Guru Granth Sahib. I think you are very well aware how through a campaign, some people have turned a simple book “bachittar natak” into a big “Sri Guru Dasam Granth Sahib ji” and they befooled many and still are doing it. Keeping such prevailing tendencies in mind, we should also reject that too, which could be written by someone in the name of Bhagatas (who knows?), because what is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, only that is what we believe in.
With regards
mandemeet | Whew we have agreement Mandemeet ji 
Recently the Ravidasia Community wanted to extract Bhagat Ravidas's sloka's from the Guru Granth Sahib and incorporate his other Sloka's (outside Bani) into another Granth. I think we have to be very careful on focusing on one Bhagat.
The actual Fools Wrangle essay to my mind is not actually about eating meat, but about reading shabads fully and understanding the context.
For example, Kabir (incidently a Muslim weaver) turned his back on Islam. Why? He saw the invasion of Timur. He saw the brutal massacre that took place in Benares of Hindu Priests in the name of Dharam (religion). He asks, tell me ohh Mullah's if this is Dharam, then what is Adharam? If you read the shabad in that context, you see what Bhagat Kabir is about.
Last edited by Randip Singh; 09-May-2012 at 18:21 PM.
Reason: spelling
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