Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

BhagatSingh · #**1009** (**permalink**) 07-May-2012, 17:33 PM

Gyani ji,
That shabad is not directed at Mullah rather it is addressed to a Pandit. Read the verses before that one. But the principle it is asking one to contemplate applies to everyone.
Kabir ji says:
If using force and killing dharmic, then what is adharmic? (Rhetorical for Killing is not dharma at all). If a you call yourself a sage (for killing animals for your fire rituals) then who would you call a butcher? (Rhetorical for you are not a sage, you are a butcher. You are following adharam.)

Now this isn't talking about eating meat, it's talking about killing animals as an adharmic action.

Randip Ji,

Quote:

You pulled out one liners out of the shabad.

Are you reading the teekas? The English translation does appear to look like a misquotation. Read the teekas instead, they are in fact taking the entire bani into account. The Freed Kote wala teeka does this really well, but it's also more difficult to understand of the two teekas.

Quote:

Kabir may have been a vegetarian, this does not mean...

Now you are jumping ahead of the discussion. You still don't agree with what I presented so how can you go ahead and start comparing this bani with the Gurus, etc? You cannot do that. The better way would be to look at each thing carefully with sehaj before moving to the next.

Quote:

I really can't see how or why this shabad relates to meat?

The shabad is addressed to a Mullah, talking about halal and killing animals for meat and yet you cannot see what it has to do with meat?
You are reading the English translation, which can potentially change the meaning if the gurmukhi and teekas are not taken into account.

Both,

I repeat the shabads I have presented are talking about killing animals as an unrighteous action. We are not discussing eating meat, rather killing animals for their meat, and killing animals for religious rituals.
This is what he is saying on page 332 as well (killing of any living being).

Do we agree that killing animals is not right action, per Kabir ji's bani?

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**1010** (**permalink**) 07-May-2012, 19:21 PM

Bhagt Ji,
IF kabir Ji had in mind that .."all" killing is bad..then he would have written so..THOU SHALT NOT KILL...even for Food".
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

1. The Mullahs DONT kill for Food per se..its RELIGIOUS MOTIVE over riding the food motive. Kabir Ji is exposing that . Killing God's animal to appease god.

2. Pandits also KILL for RELIGIOUS REASONS..the Goats killed at Kali mandirs are for SACRIFICE to mata Chandi/kali mata etc. That means the goat is being killed to appease a demigod.

AND Since BOTH the above are for "RELIGIOUS PURPOSES/ DHARMIC...they are BOTH...BANNED for SIKHS. One is halal..other is mata parshaad. THIS "religious reason" is why the Sikh rehat Maryada BANS halal....directly and clearly and the mata parshaad by association....and Recommends ONLY JHATKA which is meat for FOOD ONLY and no religious significance whatsoever.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

BhagatSingh · #**1011** (**permalink**) 07-May-2012, 21:24 PM

Gyani ji,
Dharam is always placed above one's own interests in Sikhism. Dharam means righteousness. Kabir ji has said killing a lifeform for meat is tyranny (the very first shabad we looked at). He says it's not dharam at all, eat kichree instead of cutting throats to have meat with your bread.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

The Pandit kills for religious reasons, that is exactly why according to Kabir ji he is ignorant. He is doing adharam by killing the animal but the foolish one thinks he is doing dharam by killing it. Same with the mullah who thinks if he kills the animal in a particular way, it has become halal. They are both deluded precisely because what they are doing is adharam.

If killing something for food makes it dharmic then the mullah has got it right. His halal is going to be food. But Kabir ji says "NO, you are a fool for calling it halal, it is tyranny."

The tyranny is not because it is offered to God. Offering things to God is a good thing. The tyranny is that you used force and killed the animal. How can it ever be tyrannical to offer something to God?

ਆਸਾ ॥
आसा ॥
Āsā.
Aasaa:

ਰੋਜਾ ਧਰੈ ਮਨਾਵੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਸੁਆਦਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ॥
रोजा धरै मनावै अलहु सुआदति जीअ संघारै ॥
Rojā ḏẖarai manāvai alhu su▫āḏaṯ jī▫a sangẖārai.
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder living beings for taste (ਸੁਆਦਤਿ).
FKW: ਰੋਜਾ ਧਾਰਤਾ ਹੈ ਅਲਾਹ ਕੋ ਮਨਾਉਤਾ ਹੈ ਔਰ ਸੁਆਦ ਕੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਜੀਵੋਂ ਕੋ ਮਾਰਤਾ ਹੈ ਭਾਵ ਇਹ ਕਿ ਅਲਹ ਕਾ ਨਾਮ ਲੇ ਕਰ ਸੁਆਦ ਕੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਜੀਵ ਘਾਤ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈ॥
PSS: (ਕਾਜ਼ੀ) ਰੋਜ਼ਾ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ (ਰੋਜ਼ਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਅਖ਼ੀਰ ਤੇ ਈਦ ਵਾਲੇ ਦਿਨ) ਅੱਲਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਸੁਆਦ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ (ਇਹ) ਜੀਵ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ।
[Keeps fasts for Allah but then for taste he kills living beings]

ਆਪਾ ਦੇਖਿ ਅਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਦੇਖੈ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਝਖ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
आपा देखि अवर नही देखै काहे कउ झख मारै ॥१॥
Āpā ḏekẖ avar nahī ḏekẖai kāhe ka▫o jẖakẖ mārai. ||1||
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word? ||1||
ਅਪਨੀ ਓਰ ਦੇਖਕਰ ਔਰ ਦੂਸਰੇ ਜੀਵੋਂ ਕੀ ਓਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇਖਤਾ ਹੈ ਭਾਵ ਜੋ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਹੀ ਜੈਸਾ ਜੀਵ ਇਨ ਕਾ ਭੀ ਹੈ ਜੇਕਰ ਜੀਵ ਦਇਆ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਤੌ ਰੋਜਾ ਨਿਮਾਜ ਕਰਨੇ ਮੇਂ ਕਿਉਂ ਝਖ ਮਾਰਤਾ ਹੈ॥੧॥

ਕਾਜੀ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕੁ ਤੋਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਨ ਦੇਖੈ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਬਉਰੇ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਜਨਮੁ ਅਲੇਖੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
काजी साहिबु एकु तोही महि तेरा सोचि बिचारि न देखै ॥
खबरि न करहि दीन के बउरे ता ते जनमु अलेखै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Kājī sāhib ek ṯohī mėh ṯerā socẖ bicẖār na ḏekẖai.
Kẖabar na karahi ḏīn ke ba▫ure ṯā ṯe janam alekẖai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
O Qazi, the One Lord is within you, but you do not behold Him by thought or contemplation.
You do not care for others, you are a religious fanatic, and your life is of no account at all. ||1||Pause||
ਹੇ ਕਾਜੀ ਕਿਆ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਏਕ ਤੌ ਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਹੈ ਔਰ ਤੇਰਾ ਹੀ ਪਖੀ ਹੈ ਭਾਵ ਇਹ ਕਿ ਸਭਮੇਂ ਹੈ ਔਰ ਸਭ ਕਾ ਪਖੀ ਹੈ ਯਹ ਬਡੀ ਸੋਚਨੇ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਹੈ ਤੂੰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਕੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇਖਤਾ ਹੈਂ ਹੇ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਬਉਰੇ ਕੀਏ ਹੂਏ (ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ) ਸਮਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਵਿਵੇਕ ਰਹਿਤ ਹੈਂ ਇਸ ਸੇ ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨਮ (ਅਲੇਖੈ) ਬਿਅਰਥ ਹੈ॥

ਸਾਚੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥
साचु कतेब बखानै अलहु नारि पुरखु नही कोई ॥
Sācẖ kaṯeb bakẖānai alhu nār purakẖ nahī ko▫ī.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.
ਕਿਤਾਬ ਤੋ ਸਾਚ ਰੂਪ ਅਲਾਹ ਕੋ ਕਹਤੀ ਹੈ ਔ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋਈ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਕਾ ਭੇਦ ਅਲਾਹ ਮੇਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ॥

ਪਢੇ ਗੁਨੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥
पढे गुने नाही कछु बउरे जउ दिल महि खबरि न होई ॥२॥
Padẖe gune nāhī kacẖẖ ba▫ure ja▫o ḏil mėh kẖabar na ho▫ī. ||2||
But you gain nothing by reading and studying, O mad-man, if you do not gain the understanding in your heart. ||2||
ਹੇ ਬਉਰੇ ਕਾਜੀ ਜੋ ਦਿਲ ਮੇਂ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕੀ ਖਬਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਭਈ ਤੋ ਪਢਨੇ ਗੁਣਨੇ ਸੇ ਕਛ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਤਾ॥੨॥

ਅਲਹੁ ਗੈਬੁ ਸਗਲ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਲੇਹੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥
अलहु गैबु सगल घट भीतरि हिरदै लेहु बिचारी ॥
Alhu gaib sagal gẖat bẖīṯar hirḏai leho bicẖārī.
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.
ਅਲਾਹ ਛਿਪਾ ਹੂਆ ਸਭ ਘਟੋਂ ਮੈਂ ਹੈ ਹੇ ਕਾਜੀ ਇਸ ਬਾਰਤਾ ਕੋ ਵਾ ਤਿਸ ਅਲਾਹ ਕੋ ਤੁਮ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਮੇਂ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਲੇਹੁ॥

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੈ ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ॥੩॥੭॥੨੯॥
हिंदू तुरक दुहूं महि एकै कहै कबीर पुकारी ॥३॥७॥२९॥
Hinḏū ṯurak duhū▫aŉ mėh ekai kahai Kabīr pukārī. ||3||7||29||
The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. ||3||7||29||
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਮੈਂ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਕਰ ਕਹਤਾ ਹੂੰ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਔਰ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੋਨੋ ਮੇਂ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਅਲਾਹ ਹੈ॥੩॥੭॥੨੯॥

page 483

Randip Singh · #**1012** (**permalink**) 08-May-2012, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Gyani ji,
That shabad is not directed at Mullah rather it is addressed to a Pandit. Read the verses before that one. But the principle it is asking one to contemplate applies to everyone.
Kabir ji says:
If using force and killing dharmic, then what is adharmic? (Rhetorical for Killing is not dharma at all). If a you call yourself a sage (for killing animals for your fire rituals) then who would you call a butcher? (Rhetorical for you are not a sage, you are a butcher. You are following adharam.)

Now this isn't talking about eating meat, it's talking about killing animals as an adharmic action.

No he doesn't!!

The shabads are about tyranny and false religious people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Randip Ji,

Are you reading the teekas? The English translation does appear to look like a misquotation. Read the teekas instead, they are in fact taking the entire bani into account. The Freed Kote wala teeka does this really well, but it's also more difficult to understand of the two teekas.

Either you don't understand what I am saying or you are dodging it. I repeat again. As soon as you pull out a one liner you distort the shabad. This appears to be what you are doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Now you are jumping ahead of the discussion. You still don't agree with what I presented so how can you go ahead and start comparing this bani with the Gurus, etc? You cannot do that. The better way would be to look at each thing carefully with sehaj before moving to the next.

I'm not jumping ahead of the discssion but pointing out that you cannot isolate one line from a shabad because you distort it. Post the entire shabad and discuss it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

The shabad is addressed to a Mullah, talking about halal and killing animals for meat and yet you cannot see what it has to do with meat?
You are reading the English translation, which can potentially change the meaning if the gurmukhi and teekas are not taken into account.

I'm not at all. I'm using English side by side translitration. Translitration = Gurmukhi writtem in English, not a translation. This is for the benefit of those people who come on this forum and don't read Gurmukhi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Both,

I repeat the shabads I have presented are talking about killing animals as an unrighteous action. We are not discussing eating meat, rather killing animals for their meat, and killing animals for religious rituals.
This is what he is saying on page 332 as well (killing of any living being).

Do we agree that killing animals is not right action, per Kabir ji's bani?

No I don't agree.

Kabir may have been a vegetarian just like Sheikh Farid a meat eater, but both are irrelevant to this discussion.

All that matters is what teh shabads meean and what the 6 Nanaks thought when they included them in Bani. By pulling out one liners you're distorting their meanings.

If you won't discuss the entire shabad there is no point to this discussion to be honest (something you appear to be reluctant to do so).

Randip Singh · #**1013** (**permalink**) 08-May-2012, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Gyani ji,
Dharam is always placed above one's own interests in Sikhism. Dharam means righteousness. Kabir ji has said killing a lifeform for meat is tyranny (the very first shabad we looked at). He says it's not dharam at all, eat kichree instead of cutting throats to have meat with your bread.

If killing something for food makes it dharmic then the mullah has got it right. His halal is going to be food. But Kabir ji says "NO, you are a fool for calling it halal, it is tyranny."

The tyranny is not because it is offered to God. Offering things to God is a good thing. The tyranny is that you used force and killed the animal. How can it ever be tyrannical to offer something to God?

No! Your interpretation is incredibly narrow. You really must read some history books.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bhagat...gat-kabir.html

It reads like that if you read one line yes but if you read the entire shabad it does not mean that at all. He mentions tyranny in this. How the Islamic invaders under Timur justified massacres in the name of Islam.

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.
kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.
divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.
kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.
gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served â€"
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Don't fall into the one liner trap!!! Read shabads in context.

BhagatSingh · #**1014** (**permalink**) 08-May-2012, 01:56 AM

You gotta read the teekas Randip ji. Tell me where you think the teekas get it wrong. Like I have already said, they are accurate. When I read the gurmukhi and dissect the Gurmukhi words and when I read the entire shabads, I find my self agreeing completely with the teekas. Read the teekas and tell me what you think. If you need any help let me know.

mandemeet · #**1015** (**permalink**) 08-May-2012, 08:49 AM

Quote Randip Singh
Nanak only icluded Bani's of Bhaghats that were compatible with the Sikh view, or we may as well call our selves Kabir Panthi's. Infact why don't we call ourselves Kabir Panthis

Randip Singh ji
I went through these ebooks, I haven’t found a page of Sri Guru Granth Sahib where Kabir ji calls the woman a cobra; woman in Gurbani is referred as Nari, Kaman not Maya. Maya is deemed as everything that distracts us from Naam. On 480 and 329 pages, it is obviously clear that Maya is not referred to woman.
480
ਸਰਪਨੀ ਤੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਬਲੀਆ ॥
Sarpanī ṯe ūpar nahī balī▫ā.
None is more powerful then mammon, the she-serpent,
ਸਰਪਨੀ = ਸੱਪਣੀ, ਮੋਹ ਦਾ ਡੰਗ ਮਾਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਮਾਇਆ। ਤੇ ਉਪਰਿ = ਤੋਂ ਵਧੀਕ। ਉਸ (ਮਾਇਆ) ਤੋਂ ਵਧੀਕ ਬਲ ਵਾਲਾ (ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਹੋਰ ਕੋਈ) ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ,

ਜਿਨਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਛਲੀਆ ॥੧॥
Jin barahmā bisan mahāḏe▫o cẖẖalī▫ā. ||1||
which deceived even the Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
ਜਿਨਿ = ਜਿਸ ਸੱਪਣੀ ਨੇ। ਮਹਾਦੇਉ = ਸ਼ਿਵ ॥੧॥ ਜਿਸ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ, ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰ ਤੇ ਸ਼ਿਵ (ਵਰਗੇ ਵੱਡੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ) ਛਲ ਲਏ ਹਨ ॥੧॥

ਮਾਰੁ ਮਾਰੁ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜਲਿ ਪੈਠੀ ॥
Mār mār sarpanī nirmal jal paiṯẖī.
Beating and smiting all round the she-snake is now seated in the pure water.
ਮਾਰੁ ਮਾਰੁ = ਮਾਰੋ-ਮਾਰ ਕਰਦੀ, ਬੜੇ ਜ਼ੋਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਆਈ ਹੋਈ। ਜਲਿ = ਜਲ ਵਿਚ। ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜਲਿ = ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਜਲ ਵਿਚ, ਸ਼ਾਂਤ ਸਰ ਵਿਚ, ਸਤ-ਸੰਗ ਵਿਚ। ਪੈਠੀ = ਆ ਟਿਕਦੀ ਹੈ, ਸ਼ਾਂਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਪਰ ਇਹ ਬੜੇ ਜ਼ੋਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਆਈ ਮਾਇਆ ਸਤਸੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਸ਼ਾਂਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਇਸ ਮਾਰੋ-ਮਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਸਤਸੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਅੱਪੜਿਆਂ ਠੰਡਾ ਪੈ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ),

ਜਿਨਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਡਸੀਅਲੇ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਡੀਠੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Jin ṯaribẖavaṇ dasī▫ale gur parsāḏ dīṯẖī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
By Guru's grace, I have seen her who has bitten the three worlds. Pause.
ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ = ਸਾਰਾ ਸੰਸਾਰ। ਡੀਠੀ = ਦਿੱਸ ਪਈ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਜਿਸ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਜਗਤ ਨੂੰ (ਮੋਹ ਦਾ) ਡੰਗ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਹੈ (ਸੰਗਤ ਵਿਚ) ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ (ਉਸ ਦੀ ਅਸਲੀਅਤ) ਦਿੱਸ ਪੈਂਦੀ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥

ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਕਿਆ ਕਹਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥
Sarpanī sarpanī ki▫ā kahhu bẖā▫ī.
O brother, why callest thou mammon, a she snake?
ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ...ਭਾਈ = ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਸੱਪਣੀ ਤੋਂ ਇਤਨਾ ਕਿਉਂ ਡਰਦੇ ਹੋ? ਸੋ, ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਇਸ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੋਂ ਇਤਨਾ ਡਰਨ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ।

ਜਿਨਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਪਛਾਨਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਖਾਈ ॥੨॥
Jin sācẖ pacẖẖāni▫ā ṯin sarpanī kẖā▫ī. ||2||
He who realises the True Lord, devours a she-snake?
ਤਿਨਿ = ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ। ਖਾਈ = ਖਾ ਲਈ, ਵੱਸ ਵਿਚ ਕਰ ਲਈ ॥੨॥ ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਲ ਜਾਣ-ਪਛਾਣ ਪਾ ਲਈ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਵੱਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਰ ਲਿਆ ॥੨॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਤੇ ਆਨ ਛੂਛ ਨਹੀ ਅਵਰਾ ॥
Sarpanī ṯe ān cẖẖūcẖẖ nahī avrā.
No one else is more trifling than mammon.
ਆਨ ਅਵਰਾ = ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ, ਸੱਚ ਪਛਾਨਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ। ਛੂਛ = ਖ਼ਾਲੀ, ਸੱਖਣਾ, ਬਚਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ। ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਤੇ ਛੂਛ = ਸੱਪਣੀ ਦੇ ਅਸਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ। (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਲ ਜਾਣ-ਪਛਾਣ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਹੋਰ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਵ ਇਸ ਸੱਪਣੀ ਦੇ ਅਸਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ।

ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਜੀਤੀ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੈ ਜਮਰਾ ॥੩॥
Sarpanī jīṯī kahā karai jamrā. ||3||
When the she serpent if subdued what can the king of Death's couriers do?
ਜਮਰਾ = ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ਜਮ। ਕਹਾ ਕਰੈ = ਕੁਝ ਵਿਗਾੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ ॥੩॥ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ (ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ) ਇਸ ਸੱਪਣੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੂੰ ਜਿੱਤ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜਮ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ਭੀ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਝ ਵਿਗਾੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ ॥੩

329 Concept of Simiritis is deemed as Maya /serpent

ਬੇਦ ਕੀ ਪੁਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਭਾਈ ॥
Beḏ kī puṯrī simriṯ bẖā▫ī.
The Simriti is the daughter of the Vedas, O brother.
ਭਾਈ = ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਬੇਦ ਕੀ ਪੁਤ੍ਰੀ = ਵੇਦਾਂ ਦੀ ਧੀ, ਵੇਦਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਜੰਮੀ ਹੋਈ, ਵੇਦਾਂ ਦੇ ਅਧਾਰ ਤੇ ਬਣੀ ਹੋਈ। ਹੇ ਵੀਰ! ਇਹ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ ਜੋ ਵੇਦਾਂ ਦੇ ਆਧਾਰ ਤੇ ਬਣੀ ਹੈ,

ਸਾਂਕਲ ਜੇਵਰੀ ਲੈ ਹੈ ਆਈ ॥੧॥
Sāŉkal jevrī lai hai ā▫ī. ||1||
She has brought a chain and a rope for the men. ਸਾਂਕਲ = (ਵਰਨ ਆਸ਼ਰਮਾਂ ਦੇ) ਸੰਗਲ। ਜੇਵਰੀ = (ਕਰਮ-ਕਾਂਡ ਦੀਆਂ) ਰੱਸੀਆਂ। ਲੈ ਹੈ ਆਈ = ਲੈ ਕੇ ਆਈ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ (ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਸ਼ਰਧਾਲੂਆਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਵਰਨ ਆਸ਼ਰਮ ਦੇ, ਮਾਨੋ) ਸੰਗਲ ਤੇ (ਕਰਮ-ਕਾਂਡ ਦੀਆਂ) ਰੱਸੀਆਂ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਆਈ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ॥੧॥

ਆਪਨ ਨਗਰੁ ਆਪ ਤੇ ਬਾਧਿਆ ॥
Āpan nagar āp ṯe bāḏẖi▫ā.
Of herself, she has imprisoned them in her own city.
ਆਪਨ ਨਗਰੁ = ਆਪਣਾ ਸ਼ਹਿਰ, ਆਪਣੇ ਸ਼ਰਧਾਲੂਆਂ ਦੀ ਵਸਤੀ, ਆਪਣੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਸ਼ਰਧਾਲੂ। ਆਪ ਤੇ = ਆਪ ਹੀ। (ਇਸ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ ਨੇ) ਆਪਣੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਸ਼ਰਧਾਲੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਕੜੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ,

ਮੋਹ ਕੈ ਫਾਧਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਰੁ ਸਾਂਧਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Moh kai fāḏẖ kāl sar sāŉḏẖi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
She has spread the noose of worldly love and discarded the arrow of death. Pause.
ਮੋਹ ਕੈ = ਮੋਹ (ਦੀ ਫਾਹੀ) ਵਿਚ। ਫਾਧਿ = ਫਸਾ ਕੇ। ਕਾਲ ਸਰੁ = ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਤੀਰ, ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਤੀਰ। ਸਾਂਧਿਆ = ਖਿੱਚਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ (ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਰਗ ਆਦਿਕ ਦੇ) ਮੋਹ ਦੀ ਫਾਹੀ ਵਿਚ ਫਸਾ ਕੇ (ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਤੇ) ਮੌਤ (ਦੇ ਸਹਿਮ) ਦਾ ਤੀਰ (ਇਸ ਨੇ) ਖਿੱਚਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਕਟੀ ਨ ਕਟੈ ਤੂਟਿ ਨਹ ਜਾਈ ॥
Katī na katai ṯūt nah jā▫ī.
By cutting she cannot be cut and is not broken, either. xxx
(ਇਹ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ-ਰੂਪ ਫਾਹੀ ਸ਼ਰਧਾਲੂਆਂ ਪਾਸੋਂ) ਵੱਢਿਆਂ ਵੱਢੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ ਅਤੇ ਨਾਹ ਹੀ (ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ) ਇਹ ਟੁੱਟਦੀ ਹੈ।

ਸਾ ਸਾਪਨਿ ਹੋਇ ਜਗ ਕਉ ਖਾਈ ॥੨॥
Sā sāpan ho▫e jag ka▫o kẖā▫ī. ||2||
Becoming a serpent, she is eating the world.
ਸਾਪਨਿ = ਸੱਪਣੀ। ਜਗ = ਸੰਸਾਰ, ਆਪਣੇ ਸ਼ਰਧਾਲੂਆਂ ਨੂੰ ॥੨॥ (ਹੁਣ ਤਾਂ) ਇਹ ਸੱਪਣੀ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਜਗਤ ਨੂੰ ਖਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਵੇਂ ਸੱਪਣੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਹੀ ਬੱਚਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਖਾ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਤਿਵੇਂ ਇਹ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਹੀ ਸ਼ਰਧਾਲੂਆਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ ਕਰ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ) ॥੨॥

ਹਮ ਦੇਖਤ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਲੂਟਿਆ ॥
Ham ḏekẖaṯ jin sabẖ jag lūti▫ā.
Who before my very eyes has plundered the whole world,
ਹਮ ਦੇਖਤ = ਅਸਾਡੇ ਵੇਖਦਿਆਂ। ਜਿਨਿ = ਜਿਸ (ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ) ਨੇ। ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ = ਸਾਰੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਨੂੰ। ਅਸਾਡੇ ਵੇਖਦਿਆਂ ਵੇਖਦਿਆਂ ਜਿਸ (ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ) ਨੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਨੂੰ ਠੱਗ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ।

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਿ ਛੂਟਿਆ ॥੩॥੩੦॥
Kaho Kabīr mai rām kahi cẖẖūti▫ā. ||3||30||
I have escaped from her by uttering the Lord's Name, Says Kabir.
ਰਾਮ ਕਹਿ = ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਆਖ ਕੇ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ ਕੇ। ਛੂਟਿਆ = ਬਚ ਗਿਆ ਹਾਂ ॥੩॥੩੦॥ ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! ਆਖ- ਮੈਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਉਸ ਤੋਂ ਬਚ ਗਿਆ ਹਾਂ ॥੩॥੩੦

Similar views are expressed by our Guru as well 510 ਮਃ ੩ ॥

Mėhlā 3. 3rd Guru. xxx xxx
ਮਾਇਆ ਹੋਈ ਨਾਗਨੀ ਜਗਤਿ ਰਹੀ ਲਪਟਾਇ ॥
Mā▫i▫ā ho▫ī nāgnī jagaṯ rahī laptā▫e.
Mammon is a she-serpent, which is clinging to the world.
ਨਾਗਨੀ = ਸੱਪਣੀ। ਰਹੀ ਲਪਟਾਇ = ਚੰਬੜ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ। ਮਾਇਆ ਸੱਪਣੀ ਬਣੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ (ਹਰੇਕ ਜੀਵ ਨੂੰ) ਚੰਬੜੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ,

ਇਸ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਜੋ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਫਿਰਿ ਖਾਇ ॥
Is kī sevā jo kare ṯis hī ka▫o fir kẖā▫e.
He, who performs her service him she ultimately devours. xxx
ਜੋ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਗ਼ੁਲਾਮ ਬਣਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਇਹ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਕਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੋਈ ਗਾਰੜੂ ਤਿਨਿ ਮਲਿ ਦਲਿ ਲਾਈ ਪਾਇ ॥
Gurmukẖ ko▫ī gārṛū ṯin mal ḏal lā▫ī pā▫e.
Some rare Guru-ward is a snake-charmer and he has trampled and crushed her and thrown her under his feet.
ਗਾਰੜੂ = ਗਾਰੁੜ-ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਣਨ ਵਾਲਾ; ਸੱਪ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਹਰ ਹਟਾਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਮੰਤਰ ਜਾਣਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਮਲਿ = ਮਲ ਕੇ। ਦਲਿ = ਦਲ ਕੇ। ਮਲਿ ਦਲਿ = ਚੰਗੀ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਲ ਕੇ। ਤਿਨਿ = ਤਿਸ ਨੇ, ਉਸ ਨੇ। ਕੋਈ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਇਸ ਮਾਇਆ-ਸੱਪਣੀ ਦੇ ਜ਼ਹਿਰ ਦਾ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗੀ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਲ ਕੇ ਪੈਰਾਂ ਹੇਠ ਸੁੱਟ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ।

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇਈ ਉਬਰੇ ਜਿ ਸਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥੨॥
Nānak se▫ī ubre jė sacẖ rahe liv lā▫e. ||2||
Nanak, they alone are saved who remain absorbed in the True Lord's love. xxx ॥੨॥
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਇਸ ਮਾਇਆ ਸੱਪਣੀ ਤੋਂ ਉਹੀ ਬਚੇ ਹਨ ਜੋ ਸੱਚੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਵਿਚ ਸੁਰਤ ਜੋੜਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੨॥

I couldn’t find any quote by Bhagat Kabir in Sri Guru Granth Sahib that supports views of that intellectual you are referring to.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

That intellectual refers Maya as woman and misleads Sikhs. I may be inept in finding quotes on those ebooks; if you could please clearly give me page of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, we can see if that intellectual is taking Gurbani as you advocate on this thread (I mean in entirety). If we don’t find it, it is a disservice done to Sri Guru Granth Sahib by referring such idiotic views. Big names and holding phds did wrong justification to Bhagatas; Dr Sahib Singh proves them wrong in Guru Granth Darpan. I suggest you to check it yourself instead of depending on anyone; see the real quotes and read them in their entirety at your own.

Following Sri Guru Granth Sahib, we remain Sikhs, it doesn’t matter if bani is written by any author; you cannot say following Kabir bani, we become Kabir Panthi, following Namdev's bani, we become Namdev panthi, because we are following Sri Guru Granth Sahib not any individual and all authors are well aligned with Guru Nanak’s views; if they didn’t, they wouldn’t be there in Sri Guru Granth Sahib . Comparing Guru Nanak with Kabir and finding different approach in them is a fallacy. You can simply see his bani in entirety and feel this .

If you are bent upon depending on those articles instead of analyzing at your own discretion, I have nothing to say you further; No author of Sri Guru Granth Sahib goes against Guru Nanak and it is well proved by Dr Sahib Singh ji in detail.

With regards
mandemeet

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**1016** (**permalink**) 08-May-2012, 15:27 PM

No author of Sri Guru Granth Sahib goes against Guru Nanak and it is well proved by Dr Sahib Singh ji in detail...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

Guru Nanak ji Sahib chose ALL the Banis on His Travels called Udasis. Guru Arjun ji Sahib CONFIRMED the choice when He compiled the AAD Granth in Bir Form. Gurus follwoing had copies made of the AAD Granth and Guru Teg bahadur ji added his banis to many copies, and finally GURU GOBIND SINGH JI once more finally confirmed the entirety of AAD Granth and sealed it, before passing on The Gurgadee of The House of Nanak to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in its PRESENT FORM.

It will indeed be a great dis-service and even grossly insulting to raise doubts on the authenticity of the Banis present in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There is no doubt NONE of the authors, ,,nay NOT even a Single TUK goes against GURU NANAK Jis Gurbani/Teachings/Gurmatt. If we "see" any discrepancy..its OUR FAILING..because there is NONE..not even by a NANO-mm or hair breadth !! The Entire 1429 Pages run all as ONE PIECE.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

Randip Singh · #**1017** (**permalink**) 08-May-2012, 19:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

You gotta read the teekas Randip ji. Tell me where you think the teekas get it wrong. Like I have already said, they are accurate. When I read the gurmukhi and dissect the Gurmukhi words and when I read the entire shabads, I find my self agreeing completely with the teekas. Read the teekas and tell me what you think. If you need any help let me know.

I've read them, and if you add them back into the shabad they mean something completly different from what you are implying.

No point dissecting a word here are there unless you can see it in the context of the shabad.