Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

BhagatSingh · #**1000** (**permalink**) 06-May-2012, 17:51 PM

Quote:

Point 1 - You raised the point about Bhaghat Bani.

Oh right, sorry.

No I did not use that as an anti-meat quotation, I said Kabir ji is against the killing of animals, whether it is for meat or sacrifice. On page 1103 Kabir ji clarifies this for us.

ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
जीअ बधहु सु धरमु करि थापहु अधरमु कहहु कत भाई ॥
Jī▫a baḏẖahu so ḏẖaram kar thāpahu aḏẖram kahhu kaṯ bẖā▫ī.
You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥
आपस कउ मुनिवर करि थापहु का कउ कहहु कसाई ॥२॥
Āpas ka▫o munivar kar thāpahu kā ka▫o kahhu kasā▫ī. ||2||
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||

EDIT: In the shabad mentioning Kichree. ਹੇਰਾ means meat obtained form a kill.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਮਾਸ ਵਾਲੀ, ਵੇਖਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜਦੋਂ ਬੂੰਦ ਸਾਗਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਮਿਲ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਉਸਦੀ ਭਿੰਨਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇਖੀ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਮੈਂ ਵੇਖਾਂ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਸਾਧ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਬੂੰਦ ਨਹੀ ਅਨ ਹੇਰਾ॥ {ਬਿਲਾ ੫, ੧੧੭, ੨:੨ (827)}। ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ॥ {ਸਲੋ ਕਬ, ੧੮੮:੨ (1374)}। ਮੇ

Hera roti = mas vali roti, roti with meat

Freed Kote Wala Teeka translates as following: ਕਿਉਂਕਿ (ਹੇਰਾ) ਸ਼ਿਕਾਰ ਮੈਂ ਜੀਵੋਂ ਕੋ ਮਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਮਾਸ ਕੇ ਸਾਥ ਰੋਟੀ...

Those shabads have been translated quite accurately. It's the author's lack of understanding of Gurmukhi that is the issue here.

EDIT2: Awesome I am the #1000 poster!

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**1001** (**permalink**) 06-May-2012, 18:28 PM

IN Islam..the Sacrificial animal is TIED UP and Ritually Slaughtered in GOD'S NAME...thats why ONLY such an animal provides hallal meat. This is DHARAMIC ACTION as far as the Muslims are concerned. ( IN ALL the Graphic Videos put up here and elsewhere by variosu posters one can see how the Hallal/Kosher animals are RESTRAINED while being ALIVE and KICKING...THIS is strictly DHARMIC ACTION which CANNOT be interefered with an IOTA..something which the others argue till the cows come home BUT the Islamic/jewish religious authorities DONT MOVE an INCH...its DHARAM..exactly what Kabir ji QUESTIONING here. IF this action is DHARAM ?? religious ?? than whats NOT Dharmic ??

2. Second point..in Islam/Jewish religion there is NO OTHER WAY..except the hallal/kosher "dharmic" slaughter..so its FOOD+RELIGIOUS=HALAL/KOSHER. PERIOD. So its fruitless claiming..food..killing..dharmic blah blah blah because these differences/fine lines DONT EXIST...No Colours/shades.... JUST BLACK ONLY.

3. Becasue of no. 2 above..Kabir has absolutely NO alternative...except to defend the poor cow/goat/chicken which is being RELIGIOUSLY KILLED (food is incidental and merely so as to NOT WASTE the meat...because the PRIMARY OBJECTIVE IS RELIGIOUS SACRIFICE to which the cow/goat/chicken never gave permission/consent....and since EACH "Halal/Kosher" practitioner is a RELIGIOUS PERSON..Mullah/Rabbi/Kazi....there is NO "BUTCHER" ?? Hence kabir ji is SARCASTICALLY asking..Who is the BUTCHER ?? There is NONE...a question which has NO ANSWER really becasue its un-answerable !! Like asking what "COLOUR" besides BLACK..when its ALL BLACK ONLY. The KAZI/Rabbi is the SAGE..hes the "halal/kosher" provider..hes the one who ties up the animal and slits its throat..wheres the "BUTCHER" ?? Which Muslim/Jew would accept "meat" from a BUTCHER ?? Again same answer..NONE. There is NO BUTCHER to a Muslim/jew...they are all rabis/kazis, mullahs...dharmic slaughterers....ALL BLACK..not even a slightly "grey'" acceptable ( grey would be a Muslim who only knows the kalma/or knows how to play the Kalma TAPE RECORDER so the dying chickens cna hear the kalma and transform form ordinary meat into Halal meat....Now a days due to the SHEER huge numbers of slaughtered animals..Malaysia alone eats many MILLION chickens daily...what more the one Billion Muslims worldwide...so its mainly the "GREY" type....simply not enough BLACK INK to paint every "butcher" BLACK. ha ha !!

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**1002** (**permalink**) 06-May-2012, 18:37 PM

Context context CONTEXT...context and background...is everything...just as in property..its location..location and LOCATION.

1. Note how the Mulsim Bhagts all speak about Islamic practises...ONLY. halal, etc..
2. the Hidnu bahgats speak about Hindu concepts..reincarnation, joons, rebirths, pilgrimages, fasts etc..not a single Hidnu bahgat even wrote a single line about this Maas maas clamour...

3. GURU NANAK JI "accepts" BOTH and Gives us the DEFINITIVE GURMATT VIEWPOINT TO FOLLOW. That is the New Gyaan of Gurmatt.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

4. Can anyone please provide GurBani of Mahlla 2, 3 4, 5 9...which orders us to eat khichhrrree..or daal..or carrots...ONLY and clearly say NO MEAT.period. As far as I know there is NONE. and this is simply because in Gurmatt this is a NON-ISSUE.

Randip Singh · #**1003** (**permalink**) 06-May-2012, 21:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Oh right, sorry.

No I did not use that as an anti-meat quotation, I said Kabir ji is against the killing of animals, whether it is for meat or sacrifice. On page 1103 Kabir ji clarifies this for us.

ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
जीअ बधहु सु धरमु करि थापहु अधरमु कहहु कत भाई ॥
Jī▫a baḏẖahu so ḏẖaram kar thāpahu aḏẖram kahhu kaṯ bẖā▫ī.
You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥
आपस कउ मुनिवर करि थापहु का कउ कहहु कसाई ॥२॥
Āpas ka▫o munivar kar thāpahu kā ka▫o kahhu kasā▫ī. ||2||
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||

EDIT: In the shabad mentioning Kichree. ਹੇਰਾ means meat obtained form a kill.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਮਾਸ ਵਾਲੀ, ਵੇਖਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜਦੋਂ ਬੂੰਦ ਸਾਗਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਮਿਲ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਉਸਦੀ ਭਿੰਨਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇਖੀ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਮੈਂ ਵੇਖਾਂ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਸਾਧ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਬੂੰਦ ਨਹੀ ਅਨ ਹੇਰਾ॥ {ਬਿਲਾ ੫, ੧੧੭, ੨:੨ (827)}। ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ॥ {ਸਲੋ ਕਬ, ੧੮੮:੨ (1374)}। ਮੇ

Hera roti = mas vali roti, roti with meat

Freed Kote Wala Teeka translates as following: ਕਿਉਂਕਿ (ਹੇਰਾ) ਸ਼ਿਕਾਰ ਮੈਂ ਜੀਵੋਂ ਕੋ ਮਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਮਾਸ ਕੇ ਸਾਥ ਰੋਟੀ...

Those shabads have been translated quite accurately. It's the author's lack of understanding of Gurmukhi that is the issue here.

EDIT2: Awesome I am the #1000 poster!

You've done it again!

You pulled out one liners out of the shabad. I think the authors are 100% correct in their translations and the fact that when one liners are pulled out, this distorts shabads.

Kabir may have been a vegetarian, this does not mean Sheikh Farid was? Guru Nanak ate meat on his way to Kurukshetra? Sadana was a butcher who killed animals yet his shloks are in Bani? Surely Sadana should be condemened to hell? What about Ravi Das. he killed animals and also ate meat?

Like I said before, we are not Kabir Panthi's and focusing on one Bhaghat or a one liner distorts Bani.

Here is the entire shabad complete with translitration:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.
kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.
divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.
kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.
gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served â€"
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

I really can't see how or why this shabad relates to meat?

mandemeet · #**1004** (**permalink**) 07-May-2012, 07:54 AM

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,
Eating meat or not eating it is one’s own choice; it is also our own choice to follow the spiritual path the Guru has introduced to us or to follow the world; however, kindly keep your support of Gurbani genuine and purely based on Gurbani. There is no author in Sri Guru Granth Sahib who doesn’t align with Guru Nanak’s views. I mean none; if Freed says “cut off that head that doesn’t bow to Akalpurakh”, no Guru gives comments on that sloka as they have done with many slokas of other authors; obviously its meaning is not beheading as it has been taken; verse is addressed to “self” and it is addressed to self conceit that doesn’t allow to bow before the Creator; Freed is the same person who asks us to be utterly humble and makes us aware that in all Allah exists (contrary to Islam theory). Gyani jio, please don’t think they, Baba Freed and other Bhagatas, represent any religion particularly in any way; none of them had faith in any established religion; the Gurus have also addressed the same issues what they have addressed; spiritually enlightened ones rise above such small closets. only we need is to understand the context they are talking about.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
With regards
mandemeet

mandemeet · #**1005** (**permalink**) 07-May-2012, 07:57 AM

Randip Singh ji,
What is being quoted (including recent quotes by you), are slokas of Bhagat Kabir ji, they are not shabda; every sloka stands at its own; they are not linked always or depended on each other; they cover various issues.
I request you to post Bhagat Kabir’s bani in which he criticizes “woman” as black cobra because the article you referred, just says so without giving any reference of Sri Guru Granth Sahib; as you have referred Bhagat Kabir’s being anti woman, I am curious about this; I think it is misunderstanding about Bhagat Kabir, or out there Kabir panthies are doing such propaganda; in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, he doesn’t say such things and outside Sri Guru Granth Sahib , who knows what other people had done to his bani as Pirthya and other people did in the name of Guru Nanak. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib, all is said in context of lust not sex or gender. On 329 and 480 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, sarpani is used for Maya; I wonder where Bhagat Kabir calls a woman black cobra!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
On 1379, Roti with butter is referred to luxurious viands by Baba Freed, it is not literally about roti and butter and see the context where it is said. I just feel we should not do injustice to Baba Freed or Bhagat Kabir if they say something about hypocrisy or exploitation done by some people in their times.
With Regards
mandemeet

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**1006** (**permalink**) 07-May-2012, 08:27 AM

Mandemeet Jio,
I personally dont beleive that any of the authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are not " as per GURMATT/SIKHS" ( by virtue of their BELIEFS). The "Hindu" bahgats condemn everything that is Hindu..the "Muslim" bhagats would be declared murtaad/Kafirs by the Muslim world because they clearly criticize the rituals of islam...so deep down each contributor of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is indeed Gurmatt oriented...and thats the reason why their banis are chosen by Guru Ji.
Secondly what i am mentioning is BACKGROUND...and Kabir Jis background and Namdev jis background can be clearly established - kabir ji mentions subjects which namdev doesnt - and this is due to their background. This is what all have to understand.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
Thirdly i never fail to stress that no matter what a shabad begins to say..the BOTTOM LINE/RAHAO will always give the GURMATT perpesctive. For example in one shabad namdev Ji talks about a person who is too much into "mansions" will be reborn a bhoot..a man too much into welath will be reborn a snake etc etc..BUT the BOTTOM LINE at the END states the Gurmatt Viewpoint..and that is DONT BE WORRIED..NAAM will SAVE YOU.
Now..what i always notice is most sikhs simply leave the BOTTOM LINE out and begin to argue..OH..will i really become a snake in my next life ? oh will i be reborn a prostitute ? oh..will i be a bhoot ? And then begin to argue about whether Bhoots exist..( because namdev ji mentioned bhoots) or is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is sexist because it mentions prostitute ?? Is it TRUE that all these prostitutes we see today were in their previous joon too much into sex/kaam ?? etc etc etc..ALL of which are NON-ISSUES...and the GOLDEN LINE is about GURMATT..and NAAM BEING THE SAVIOUR. The GURUS also SAY THIS...NAAM NAAM NAAM...and if we listen..then we have no fear of reincarnations, joons, rebirths, heavens, hells, whatever..BUT most IGNORE this all important vital teaching..and argue endlessly about whether there is reincarnation in sikhism..whether the gurus believed in joons or if there are really 84 lakh joons or less or more..etc etc etc.. and if we really "argue" and leave no time for Naam in our lives..then we will become the self fulfilling prophesy..and be reborn/rebirthed/etc etc..???? we could AVOID that..and GURU NANAK JI came to make sure we do...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

I am a teacher by profession..and my job is to ensure my students "Pass" their exams and be empoyable/educated persons...I can "frighten" them by saying all sorts of things..IF you dont study and FAIL..you will end up being a scavenger..a garbage man..or a beggar...etc etc etc..all of which may be "true"...and IF my studnets take this to heart and daily begin to think..oh..i may be beggar only..or oh i may be unemployed..etc etc and thus NEGLECT to STUDY HARD..which is actually the BOTTOM LINE..my efforts are at making sure they all STUDY....not argue endlessly about becoming beggars etc leaving no time for studying...and then becoming a self fulfilling prophesy..

Thank you Ji.

Randip Singh · #**1007** (**permalink**) 07-May-2012, 16:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandemeet

Randip Singh ji,
What is being quoted (including recent quotes by you), are slokas of Bhagat Kabir ji, they are not shabda; every sloka stands at its own; they are not linked always or depended on each other; they cover various issues.
I request you to post Bhagat Kabir’s bani in which he criticizes “woman” as black cobra because the article you referred, just says so without giving any reference of Sri Guru Granth Sahib; as you have referred Bhagat Kabir’s being anti woman, I am curious about this; I think it is misunderstanding about Bhagat Kabir, or out there Kabir panthies are doing such propaganda; in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, he doesn’t say such things and outside Sri Guru Granth Sahib , who knows what other people had done to his bani as Pirthya and other people did in the name of Guru Nanak. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib, all is said in context of lust not sex or gender. On 329 and 480 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, sarpani is used for Maya; I wonder where Bhagat Kabir calls a woman black cobra!

Try clicking on the links . Not only are the sloka's there but commentary from intellectuals:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=e...0cobra&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=q...0cobra&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=d...0cobra&f=false

Nanak only icluded Bani's of Bhaghats that were compatible with the Sikh view, or we may as well call our selves Kabir Panthi's. Infact why don't we call ourselves Kabir Panthis?

Previous discussion link:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bhagat...r-dohay-2.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandemeet

On 1379, Roti with butter is referred to luxurious viands by Baba Freed, it is not literally about roti and butter and see the context where it is said. I just feel we should not do injustice to Baba Freed or Bhagat Kabir if they say something about hypocrisy or exploitation done by some people in their times.
With Regards
mandemeet

Indeed we shouldn't and my illustration here shows why you should never quote one line out of a shabad, because it distorts the shabad.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**1008** (**permalink**) 07-May-2012, 16:43 PM

Chhopprre roti...kaath ki roti..etc are to be considered as Parts of the Complete shabad..once they are taken out and used as one liners..the meaning...gets DISTORTED..which may be an agenda of some..but not allowed here at SPN.