2eb6c Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh - Page 108
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Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

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chicken, confused, dairy, eat, flesh, fools, halal meat, haram, kutha meat, meat, meat and sikhism, meat eating, prodcuts, sikh, sikhism, sikhism practices, thread, veg, wrangle
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  #964 (permalink)  
Old 29-Apr-2012, 20:18 PM
Scarlet Pimpernel's Avatar Scarlet Pimpernel Scarlet Pimpernel is offline
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Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

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Very well said brother Scarlet Pimpernel ji.

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  #965 (permalink)  
Old 29-Apr-2012, 20:23 PM
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Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel
Quote:
When one gives up a certain meat for ones Religion that is just to get the person used to adherence,it is the principle behind it that is being taught, namely that one has to comply with certain principles or behave with propriety ,simply some things we do, somethings we don't do, taught by simple day to day practice in diet,so first the easy stuff like Dietary Control,then the harder stuff like Self Control.


Veer Ji
I'm not sure what dehra does but they should teach that the Adherence of Truth principle is what is important and not the mechanism by which we remember it.

Anyway I would give up meat in an instant for just one date with the bulgarian beauty from the Apprentice,so what merit would my meat giving up really have in my case,just about anyone can control themselves from some Pork chops or some Burgers but to avert ones minds eye from an enticing beauty is another thing altogether,

As our Guru said where are those beauties now seeing whom one would get no sleep,no one loses sleep over food choices ,let Sikhs control the 'hard' things,let others control the easy things.

Last edited by Scarlet Pimpernel; 29-Apr-2012 at 22:39 PM.
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  #966 (permalink)  
Old 04-May-2012, 07:29 AM
PunjabiEspada's Avatar PunjabiEspada PunjabiEspada is offline
 
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Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

I'll make this short and sweet
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

I won't even try to debate you guys on the message that Bani has obviously delivered; since some people twist it to bend to their own beliefs and neither of us will bend to the other's opinion

I'll talk about minimizing suffering



Last edited by Randip Singh; 05-May-2012 at 04:53 AM. Reason: removed video's. What has this got to do with Sikhi and off topic
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  #967 (permalink)  
Old 04-May-2012, 09:41 AM
Luckysingh's Avatar Luckysingh Luckysingh is online now
 
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Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

PunjabiEspada ji.
Don't think that no ones taking any notice of what you say or trying to ignore your comments.
This thread has been going for a very long time, it is the longest one on SPN, I think!
Throughout the thread, the same arguments that you put forward have been raised many times. The result is that wether you argue for or against veggie or non veggie, -a single truthful statement won't be concluded.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

You can look and see in the posts that many times the same arguments of pain and cruelty to animals have been put forward.
You need to read the 1st essay/post and maybe a few of them later on, and you should get the idea that for every argument there will be a strong opposing argument and comment.

In terms of sikhism, the main points to note are-
That Gurbani quotes for pro-veggie arguments are wrongly presented and interpreted.
The Guru Granth Sahib ji does not directly state either way if one should or should not eat meat.
It is a choice of the individual and what their conscious tells them.
The rehat maryada does not specify and Akal Takht have ruled that it doesn't make a sikh eating meat not welcome.
It leaves the choice to one self.

All the arguments are then, outside of the scope for sikhi.
I myself used to be convinced that eating meat is prohibited, but now I realise that it's a personal choice and how you feel about it.
If your conscious tells you no,no, then don't do it. But if ones conscious is not affected or it doesn't matter wether they do or not, then fine, go ahead.
The arguments for pain and suffering are all very well. BUT, these won't stop if consumption of meat was prohibited throughout the world.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
There is a lot of cruelty, pain and suffering in production of dairy products.
Lots of chemicals have been used that have wiped out certain colonies of insects.. etc in mass production of fruit and veg.
So, we can't just see it as clear as black and white if we use pain and suffering as a basis.

As a sikh, one that eats meat or not doesn't make either of them any better.
Meat consumption is not in any way used to define a sikh.

We shouldn't divide between ourselves any sikhs that eat to ones that don't, this further dilutes sikhism.
We should also not judge other's in relation to their attitude on meat consumption.

I think you should get the idea.

Sat Kartar
Lucky Singh

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  #968 (permalink)  
Old 04-May-2012, 10:00 AM
BhagatSingh's Avatar BhagatSingh BhagatSingh is offline
 
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Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

Lucky Singh ji,

Quote:
In terms of sikhism, the main points to note are-
That Gurbani quotes for pro-veggie arguments are wrongly presented and interpreted.
Are you coming to this conclusion after having gone through the shabads yourself (as you do Ambarsaria ji's Sukhmani series) or are you taking the author's word for it?
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  #969 (permalink)  
Old 04-May-2012, 10:47 AM
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Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

Quote:
Originally Posted by BhagatSingh View Post
Lucky Singh ji,


Are you coming to this conclusion after having gone through the shabads yourself (as you do Ambarsaria ji's Sukhmani series) or are you taking the author's word for it?
I went through most of the posts a while back including the gurbani quotes. I think 'misquote' would probably be a better term to apply above instead of 'wrongly presented'.
The conclusion I came to was very neutral in terms of sikhism.
The view is a strong matter of personal feeling and consciousness.
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  #970 (permalink)  
Old 04-May-2012, 11:49 AM
BhagatSingh's Avatar BhagatSingh BhagatSingh is offline
 
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Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

Lucky Singh ji,
Now this issue of meat eating is actually not THAT important. If I agreed to anything in the article, it would be this. But that should not prevent discussion. Maintaining detachment is key.

I did not find the article so conclusive. In fact, where the author says Gurbani is being mistranslated, it is not. For example, the salok's of Bhagat Kabir ji were already accurate and consistent with his beliefs. He was a vegetarian and is against the eating of meat. He says that very clearly here.

In this order: Gurmukhi, Word for Word translation, Sant Singh Khalsa, Freed Kote wala Teeka and Prof Sahib Singh

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥
ਕਬੀਰ - Kabir, ਜੋਰੀ- force, ਕੀਏ- use thereof, ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ - is tyranny, ਕਹਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਹਲਾਲੁ - which you call permissible

Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਜੋਰਾ ਜੋਰੀ ਕਰ ਬੱਕਰਾ ਆਦੀ ਮਾਰਨੇ ਸੇ ਹੈ ਤੋ ਜੁਲਮ ਔ ਤਿਸ ਕੋ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਹਲਾਲ ਕੀਆ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਮੁੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦੱਸ ਕਿ) ਕਿਸੇ ਉਤੇ ਧੱਕਾ ਕਰਨਾ ਜ਼ੁਲਮ ਹੈ, (ਤੂੰ ਜਾਨਵਰ ਨੂੰ ਫੜ ਕੇ ਬਿਸਮਿੱਲਾ ਆਖ ਕੇ ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਅਤੇ) ਤੂੰ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਕਿ ਇਹ (ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾਨਵਰ) ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ (ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਨਾਲ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਉਤੇ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ); (ਪਰ ਇਹ ਮਾਸ ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਖਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈਂ। ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੀਂਦੇ, ਕਦੇ ਸੋਚ ਕਿ)


ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਂਗੀਐ ਤਬ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੮੭॥
ਦਫਤਰਿ - office of Dharam Raj, ਲੇਖਾ - account, ਮਾਂਗੀਐ - calls for, ਤਬ - then, ਹੋਇਗੋ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ - what will be your condition? (rhetorical for "You will be in trouble.")

When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||
ਜਬ ਧਰਮਰਾਇ ਕੇ ਦਫਤਰ ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰੇ ਸੇ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਂਗੀਐ ਗਾ ਤਬ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੌਨ ਸਾ ਹਵਾਲ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਬੁਰਾ ਹਾਲ ਹੀ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ॥੧੮੭॥
ਜਦੋਂ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਮਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਹਿਸਾਬ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਤਾਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੀਹ ਹਾਲ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ॥੧੮੭॥


ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ ॥
ਕਬੀਰ - Kabir, ਖੂਬੁ - excellent, ਖਾਨਾ - eating, ਖੀਚਰੀ - dish made from rice and beans, ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ - if amrit-like salt is added
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਹੇ ਭਾਈ ਇਹ ਖਿਚੜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਣਾ ਹੀ ਖੂਬ ਹੈ ਭਾਵ ਅਛਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਖਿਚੜੀ ਮੈਂ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਤ ਕੇ ਸਮਾਨ ਘ੍ਰਿਤ ਔ ਲੂਣ ਪੜਾ ਹੂਆ ਹੈ॥
ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਮੁੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬੇਸ਼ੱਕ ਆਖ ਕਿ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇ ਬਹਾਨੇ ਮਾਸ ਖਾਣ ਨਾਲੋਂ) ਖਿਚੜੀ ਖਾ ਲੈਣੀ ਚੰਗੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਸੁਆਦਲਾ ਲੂਣ ਹੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੋਵੇ।

ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥
ਹੇਰਾ - meat (from hunting), ਰੋਟੀ - roti/bread, ਕਾਰਨੇ, with the intent, ਗਲਾ - neck, throat, ਕਟਾਵੈ - cut, ਕਉਨੁ - who
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||
ਕਿਉਂਕਿ (ਹੇਰਾ) ਸ਼ਿਕਾਰ ਮੈਂ ਜੀਵੋਂ ਕੋ ਮਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਮਾਸ ਕੇ ਸਾਥ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਨੇ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਸੇ ਪੀਛੇ ਅਪਨੇ ਕੋ ਕੌਨ ਕਟਾਵੇ ਭਾਵ ਜੀਵ ਕੇ ਮਾਰਨੇ ਕਰਕੇ ਫੇਰ ਅਪਨਾ ਸੀਸ ਤਿਸ ਸੇ ਕਟਵਾਵਨਾ ਪੜਤਾ ਹੈ॥੧੮੮॥
ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਲਈ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਮਾਸ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਣ ਦੀ ਨਿਯਤ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਹੋਵੇ ਪਰ (ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦਾ ਹੋਕਾ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਪਸ਼ੂ ਨੂੰ) ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਫਿਰਾਂ ॥੧੮੮॥


I have come across mistranslations (e.g. the saloks that come right after are mistranslated by Prof Sahib Singh and Sant Singh Khalsa, which are inconsistent with Sant Kabir's beliefs). But here all translations and teekas align and their translations align with Sant Kabir ji's beliefs. Read other shabads by Kabir ji and his anti-meat (to be very precise, he is against killing to obtain meat) views will become quite clear.


PunjabiEspada ji,
Quote:
Minimize worldwide meat consumption and minimize suffering
It could also be the other way around.
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  #971 (permalink)  
Old 04-May-2012, 11:52 AM
Luckysingh's Avatar Luckysingh Luckysingh is online now
 
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Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiEspada View Post
I'm pretty sure all the vegetarians worldwide combined have had some impact on reducing the production of meat

which in turn reduces suffering
Yes, I'm sure that all the meat eaters live in the greener parts of the world as the vegetation is probably untouched.
I wonder where these green is ?
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Old 04-May-2012, 12:16 PM
BhagatSingh's Avatar BhagatSingh BhagatSingh is offline
 
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Re: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

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Punjabi Espada ji,
The view on the other thread (vegetarian consciousness...) was that meat had a negative affect on spirituality, hinders spiritual growth and thus would increase the suffering of the human being.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828

What do you think about this? It has little to do with animal suffering, which is an important topic but irrelevant to the article.
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