Meditation on God Help

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

The list of preconditions from a preacher is never ending. He always enhances this list before a seeker has reached it.

The True Guru sings sgl mqWq kyvl hir nwm ]
"sagal mataaNt kayval har naam." SGGS Ang 296-4
All notions end alone by Hari Naam.

Strange is that preachers have never stopped adding new conditions in their lists.

And the True Gurus go on singing like Akhand Paath

khqu kbIru sunhu nr nrvY prhu eyk kI srnw ]
"kahat kabeer sunhu nar narvai parahu ayk kee sarnaa."

kyvl nwmu jphu ry pRwnI qb hI inhcY qrnw ]6]2]
"kayval naam japahu ray paraanee tab hee nihchai tarnaa. ||6||2|| SGGS Ang 1349-18
Only chant Naam O mortals then surely come across.


Balbir Singh

Sat Sri Akaal Ji.

Here, i pour myself once again for you.

snavneet:
Balbir ji, we all have been on this journey since time immemorial. We are all journeying 'through' God, so how can the journey ever begin? And for that matter how can it ever end, if God is infinite? There is no single point in anyone's life which can be marked as the starting moment of the journey towards God because that moment would have been inspired by a moment which took place before it. Just like time always flows in one direction, which is forwards, similarly each one of us is always moving towards God at our own pace, learning our lessons on the way. We may lose our path and go astray, but the sorrow that eventually comes out of it, brings us back on track. Let me explain with a simple example. Suppose that one fine day, after experiencing all sorts of material pleasures, a very rich man realizes that fame and fortune cannot bring him true everlasting happiness. Out of his experience, he understands that everything is perishable, that nothing in this physical world lasts forever. Out of Vairaag he then decides to seek salvation in God. Someone might say that this is the point where his journey towards God begins. But, what if he hadn't earned himself all that fame and fortune and gone through the associated pleasures, would this 'moment of realization' have even come to him? How then can we be certain where his journey began? What i mean to say is that, even his becoming rich and then experiencing great boredom out of temporal pleasures was part of the divine plan, meant to inspire him, meant to give him that extra push that would accelerate him on his ongoing journey towards God-realization. If the push is great enough then one can escape the gravitic pull of Maya, otherwise one re-enters the cycle of life and death. But some day, that greatest of pushes will come, which will take one naturally and permanently away from Maya's slavery and towards true awakening.

Also, let me assure you that God-realization is not the end of the journey. God always remains unfathomable. If that wasn't the case then the enlightened ones wouldn't have called God an infinite ocean of consciousness and bliss. The journey in God never ends even after realization. We will always be journeying in God. But right now, we are un-enlightened. We are sleep-walking through Him. A major part of our consciousness is asleep, it is unconscious. While most of us continue to suffer in cycles of life and death, there are a few who put everything at stake and decide to realize God permanently, once-and-forever! Ultimately, we all will come to that realization, but the sooner the better because the world of infinite ecstasy awaits us post enlightenment. Many-a-times we refer to the enlightened ones as the awakened ones. They are called the awakened ones because they have become entirely conscious of their existence in God. No part of their being is unconscious. They are 100% awake and aware of God, in and around them. They start experiencing the infinite ocean of bliss with complete awareness. Remember one thing for sure, God-realization is not the end! It is the point where we come out of repetition, out of all cycles and enter into a realm where love, joy, peace and bliss are ever new and eternal. Simply put, we are all on a pilgrimage towards God-realization via God but the journey never began and will never end because God Himself has no beginning and no end!

Now, let us come to the second part of your question. I ask you, how can Naam-Jap be the beginning of your journey? Didn't someone inspire you to do Naam-Jap? Why not call that the beginning? Now, i can keep going backwards in your present life and then probably in your past lives and never reach the point where your journey began. Now, this moment when someone inspired you to do Naam-Jap depends on all the moments that came before it, even on your birth! What if you were born into a Buddhist family? You could be practicing Vipaasna instead of Naam-Jap or none at all. Maybe, even in a previous life, somebody inspired you to do Naam-Jap, but you got bored and abandoned it. So, would that moment from your previous life, when somebody inspired you to do Naam-Jap and you started doing it but abandoned it later, constitute the beginning of the journey? Think deeply about this and you will find out that you cannot single out any moment, day, year, life, etc. where your journey towards God-realization began.

And, what to speak of one-pointedness. By now you would have realized its importance yourself! We all have been in this cycle of birth and death, since God knows when! Why? What went wrong? Why didn't we realize God in the first birth itself? And i am sure, we would have crossed paths with many enlightened beings in at least some of those lives. Why did we not get enlightened then? Could it have been due to our lack of devotion? Our lack of one-pointedness? Maybe the enlightened ones tried their best, but we were so manmukh by nature that we never totally devoted ourselves to their teachings, never followed them in totality, with one-pointedness! It could have happened that way, right? Even in sikh history, you will come across many such manmukhs, who failed to obey the Gurus, even though they lived with them and listened to their Baani in person. Take, Guru Ramdaas Ji's eldest son Prithi Chand as an example. He lived with Guruji, served Him, served the Langar, listened to His sermons, did Naam-Jap, etc. but still he betrayed his father Guru Ramdaas Ji and his younger brother Guru Arjan Dev Ji. He clearly went against Guruji's instructions so many times. And Prithi Chand coveted the Gurgaddi for himself and made every possible attempt to take it away from Guru Arjan Dev Ji, who was the most deserving successor to Guru Ramdaas Ji. Even in the presence of His holiness Guru Ramdaas Ji, Prithi Chand failed to become a Gurmukh. Till the very last moment, he denied hiding the letters sent by Guru Arjan Dev Ji to Guru Ramdaas Ji, which Guruji had to finally locate using His universal clairvoyance! So, inspite of doing Naam-Jap, inspite of doing Keertan, inspite of listening to Sermons, inspite of doing Sewa, what did Prithi Chand lack? I am sure it is not too hard to figure out now. Prithi Chand's devotion to the Guru was incomplete, it was not "one-pointed". In a way, it was "two-pointed" or "many-pointed" because the part of Him that betrayed Guruji was the part of his ego, of his fragmented mind. His mind was split up into so many pieces, it was 'envying his younger brother', 'coveting the Gurgaddi', 'denying the Hukam of Guruji so many times' and what not! He lacked one-pointedness in his devotion to Guruji. And for the same reason, he lacked one-pointedness in doing 'Naam-Jap', 'Keertan' and 'Sewa'. Because even while doing Naam-Jap, he would be thinking of his next step to get closer to the Gurgaddi. That's why Guruji says in his Baani, "Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet", because He expects at least that much from us. He wants us to praise God but warns us to do it with a one-pointed mind, with complete devotion, otherwise we would not make any progress. If that was not the case then He would have changed the mind of Prithi Chand using His divine powers, but then that wouldn't be Self-realization, would it? And whatever is not Self-realized, is lost easily in a moment of faithlessness. I hope you got the point this time. Simply put, Sumiran without one-pointedness is of no use at all. If you can be one-pointed even for a few moments during your Sumiran, then your Sumiran will be fruitful and its fruit would make you even more one-pointed! It is like a chain reaction!

As a challenge, try Reading something while doing Sumiran orally. Go ahead, read the above paragraph and also recite "Waheguru" loudly, both at the same time! See, if you can do either of them in any fruitful way. I am absolutely sure that you will do justice to neither of these activities. You can be fair to either of them, only if you become one-pointed and commit to one act at a time. Please try this. You will know what i have been trying to explain for so long! And, via this challenge, your mind is becoming only "two-pointed", reading one thing and reciting another, imagine the usual situations in everyday life, where the mind runs away in countless directions, especially when one sits to do Sumiran!

Let me know if you are convinced about something!

Bhull Chukk Dee Khima Mangdaa Haan.

__________________
(Japo!)
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

Thanks for your efforts. I did not know that I might have to read a Veda because of my curiosity.

Quote >>>I hope you got the point this time. Simply put, Sumiran without one-pointedness is of no use at all. If you can be one-pointed even for a few moments during your Sumiran, then your Sumiran will be fruitful and its fruit would make you even more one-pointed! It is like a chain reaction! <<<

I hope I understood the extract of your explanation. According to this both, Simran and one-pointedness, are very important.

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Quote >>>As a challenge, try Reading something while doing Sumiran orally. Go ahead, read the above paragraph and also recite "Waheguru" loudly, both at the same time! See, if you can do either of them in any fruitful way. I am absolutely sure that you will do justice to neither of these activities. You can be fair to either of them, only if you become one-pointed and commit to one act at a time. Please try this. You will know what i have been trying to explain for so long! And, via this challenge, your mind is becoming only "two-pointed", reading one thing and reciting another, imagine the usual situations in everyday life, where the mind runs away in countless directions, especially when one sits to do Sumiran! <<<

In this last paragraph you challenged and stressed that Simran and anything else will result in two-pointedness of mind.

Is awareness of Simran and one-pointedness not leading to two-pointedness? Please explain.


Balbir Singh

Sat Sri Akaal Ji.

Well, it is good to know that you have begun to appreciate the importance of one-pointedness! But i feel that you still haven't understood it entirely. So, i will try my best to elaborate further.

snavneet:
You have asked that question because you think that 'awareness' and 'one-pointedness' are qualitatively different. One-pointedness is nothing but 'complete awareness'. As your awareness in Sumiran grows, you will experience glimpses of 'complete awareness' or 'one-pointedness'. As you continue further, a time may come when awareness of Sumiran permanently reaches its peak. At that time, you will be aware only of Sumiran and nothing else. You will be permanently one-pointed in the act. You will be focused on the tenth door. Beyond that God is the judge.

(Elaborating...)
On its own, "one-pointedness" can never be an act. You can't just be one-pointed. You have to be one-pointed about something. It has to go along with something. One-pointedness is being completely focused on an act. The act could be that of Sumiran or reading or dancing or singing or whatever! One-pointedness is same as total concentration. Now concentration can never exist by itself. One has to concentrate on something else. "One-pointedness" is putting all of one's "concentration" or "attention" or "Dhyaan" into some action. "Many-pointedness" means that Dhyaan or Concentration has become fragmented. In the challenge above, i asked you to 'read' one paragraph and simultaneously 'recite' Waheguru orally. I am sure you failed to do it, simply because your attention got split up into two. If your Dhyaan or focus was on 'reading' alone, you could have 'read' better. If your Dhyaan was on 'recitation' alone, you could have 'recited' better. Suppose that while doing Sumiran, you succeed in being entirely focused on the act of "Naam-Jap" alone and that no other thoughts distract you, in that case what state would you be in? You would be "one-pointed" in the act of "Sumiran", isn't it? Someone could say that your "concentration" or "focus" or "attention" or "dhyaan" was totally in the act of "Sumiran", isn't it?

You have used the phrase 'awareness of Simran' in your last post. What does 'awareness of Sumiran' mean? What does it mean to be aware of something? Sumiran is an act that you are trying to perform. What does it really mean to be aware of this act? It simply indicates as to 'how deeply focused' you are, on the act of Sumiran. And what if your focus was 100% on Sumiran? Wouldn't that constitute one-pointedness in Sumiran? One-pointedness is a special case of awareness. It is that case when awareness of the act is complete. That is what Jaap is all about. It is about becoming 'one-pointed' in the act. When that happens and is acceptable to the Guru then He bestows the blessing of the 'Ajapaa Jaap' on His disciple. Then one enters the Sahaj-Avastha, the state in which one becomes the master of one's mind. Focus or concentration are no longer needed because the wavering mind comes to a standstill and submits itself in service.

Hope this helps.

__________________
(Japo!)
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Snavneet Ji!

I found some time to go through your posts in this thread again. These posts have many controversies. Please clear them if possible.

Quotes from Post #23 dated 05-12-2006 >>>At the beginning of our spiritual journey, we don't know God at all! Then, how can we meditate on God? Hence, in the beginning we meditate on something that reminds us of God . . . Meditation begins with great effort, gradually becomes effortless and ends in effortlessness . . . The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap. <<<

Quote from the controversial Post #32 dated 05-16-2006 >>>Balbir ji, we all have been on this journey since time immemorial. We are all journeying 'through' God, so how can the journey ever begin? And for that matter how can it ever end, if God is infinite? There is no single point in anyone's life which can be marked as the starting moment of the journey towards God. <<<

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Quote from post #23 dated 05-12-2006 >>>We may meditate on the Naam, on the Guru, on our breath, etc . . . Three stages of Jaap are usually identified. One is Oral Jaap, where one may recite any name given to God. It could be Waheguru, Ram, Allah, etc. <<<

It is strange that first and second stages of Jaap, from your explanation, are because of our efforts. I do not know if ego of any person can start Jap with his attempts.

Gurdev sings.

mn kI ibiD siqgur qy jwxY Anidnu lwgY sd hir isau iDAwnu ]
"man kee biDh satgur tay jaanai an-din laagai sad har si-o Dhi-aan." SGGS Ang 1259-19
Technique of (taming) mind is known by Sat Guru. Day and night it establishes meditation in Sad Hari.

Gurbani raises curiosity and answers this way.

kaunu ibiD qw kI khw krau ]
"ka-un biDh taa kee kahaa kara-o." SGGS Ang 1322-11
Which technique it is, says to do

..... khu nwnk nwm rsu pweIAY swDU crn gha
"kaho naanak naam ras paa-ee-ai saaDhoo charan gaha-o." SGGS Ang 1322-13
Says Nanak, we receive Naam Essence at Sadhu's Charan.

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Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>This Ajapaa Jaap is the True Name of God, the one given by God. This is the Sat Naam that Gurbani points to. This stage comes to us as Gur-Parsaad, a gift from the Guru, once our effort has matured to its peak, once we are just ripe enough to be plucked by God Himself! <<<

I feel it is only ego that gets matured to its peak if it is our effort, not the Ajapaa Jap.

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You referred Guru Arjan Dev Ji's wonderful Vaak "Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet, Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet." SGGS Ang 295-15

In my view, 'Ustat' means praise. Praise and slandering are two opposite words belonging to this world. God's Ustat is done to achieve material worlds. Then God is the giver of all. This is why Gurdev sang about achieving Ridhis, Sidhis and Nidhis in this Pauri not Salvation.

Gurdev is not singing here "Prabh Ka Simran Karho Sant Meet, Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet."

Through Simran we reach the ultimate goal of human life, i.e., Mukti. Naturally Ustat of Prabh is done with attention, a one-pointedness chit to achieve all material things. This is a different story why people do Ustat of worldly bosses with one-pointedness on materials to achieve those.

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Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Ajapaa Jaap is the sound of Om that resonates throughout existence, within us and without also. <<<

Please provide one reference from Gurbani. I will be grateful.

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Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Once we are fit to hear it, the "Ajapaa Jaap" or "Ek Omkar" requires no effort from the meditator. <<<

Why suddenly in Ajapaa Jaap, "Ek Omkar" replaces by the Om sound. Please explain.

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Quote from post #25 dated 05-13-2006 >>>Indeed, every bit of progress we make is a gift from God, but we have to make some effort, however tiny, so that we can make progress. <<<

Please elaborate. Why ego could attempt, however tiny, when every bit of progress, we make, is a gift from God.

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You referred Bhai Gurdas Ji's words "Charan Saran Gur EK PAINDA Jae Chal, Satgur KOT PAINDA aagey hoe laet hai."

Why one needs to search examples from others than the Gurus to support ego. Please provide one similar statement from the Gurus too?

Perhaps one can understand here why The Gurus did not offer Bhai Gurdas Ji Gurgaddi.

**************
Reading your views praising small efforts of ego is interesting and on the other hand in the same post this statement "The tiny bit of free will that their drop of a soul can exhibit is spent in denying the Hukam, but their denial does not change the Truth. If i close my eyes and proclaim that the Sun doesn't exist then that won't have any effect on the truth of the Sun's existence. Now, such people just listen to their egos, that's why they are called Manmukhs."

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This post is getting long. I am not used to write long letters. I may write more when God wants me. Please do not take it personally but as Satsang with all.

Thanks.


Balbir Singh

Dear friends


Very rightly mentioned as your disscusion might be helpinh many others like me . So please continue


Jatinder Singh.

__________________
PrIdw kwl^ØI ijnI n rwivAw DaulI rwvY koie ]

Sat sri akal everyone.

Referring to this topic, there are many things that can be said.

The thing is, before we can actually perform anything, we must have knowledge about it, and understanding. Dont just rush to things and say your going to read the gurbani etc. The thing is, we all do it obviously for many reasons, (personal reasons), and obviously we would have ego.

I would say that people have different levels of gods grace, that help them in life. The sikh gurus were different then anyone there is today in the world. Think about the time they had and how busy they were in thei life. Their was quitness in their life, life where people were confused, and for that, they were more in love with god, as they were to pure in heart. In today's world, we may not have time for being to pure, and we can not be like the sikh gurus. The sikh gurus became god, whereas we are on different levels. There are people in this world with different levels between them and god.

Pray to god the way you should be, in the heart and mind. Pray and become god the way you should be.

We all have the purest state...the soul, which is immortal. We are all from the origin of god. As long as we realise that there is the fearless all loving, omnipresent god, we have different ways to remember god which gets us going in life, or gets us to become who we should be.

So dont worry, the divine light is there and will forever be there. The creator, the lord is with everyone, we are all from god.

God is where we accept who we are. There are many ways to love god in different paths. Choose the path that is good for you. Sikhism was not created by the human gurus themself. It was all god. The gurus became and engaged into ''GOD''. The khalsa became god.

It could be hard for some people to read the holy books in sikhim or any other religion because they are not use to it, and they might be suitable for praying to god in a different way. We all have different levels, as long as we love the true one god, the one reality truth that is the guider, we can enjoy life and act accordingly.

Sikhism, khalsa was from god. God has many different people because there are different paths and levels that they have.

Before we act the way the sikh gurus acted, we must have knowledge about their background, and how they were pure. The physical life is filled with time, and social changes.

Follow the holy book if you are able to. If you should be then folllow it as long as its for the love of god. And do what is best for you, as long as you are beliving in the one ultimate god. Its up to you the way you pray to god. We are all one when it comes to god.

meditation will guide people in the way they are more in love with god:

For example, a person who is likely to have more faith in god, would have fewer problems in meditating, whereas someone who is beginning to meditate to god, it may take more time, and it may take some other things such as music or something inspiring to enhance their belife and meditation.

Remember we all have and require different levels for the path of divinity.

Sat Sri Akaal Ji.

Balbir Ji, please take a deep breath because this reply is really long, something that you are not used to!
I feel that in your last post you have misinterpreted Gurbani. So, i will jump straight to that part first and try my best to point out the shortcomings in your interpretation. After that i will get to all the other points that you have raised from my posts, which i assure you are not controversies at all!

snavneet:

Guruji's Baani that is under consideration is this:

"Prabh Kee Ustat Karho Sant Meet,
Saavdhaan Ekaagar Cheet."

In the beginning you were of the view that 'Ekaagar Cheet' was a result of True Sumiran and that True Ustat was possible only after becoming 'Ekaagar Cheet'. At that time you were not ready to accept the importance of 'Ekaagar Cheet' during Sumiran. And you also had no issues with the word 'Ustat'. And in your latest post, God's Ustat has suddenly become something very ordinary for you. You say that people do Ustat to gain worldly things. If you read Gurbani attentively, you will find out that our Gurus and Bhagats have done Ustat of God all the time. So, were they doing it for worldly gain? So, if one praises the Lord out of true love for Him, is it to gain material wealth and powers? There are so many Bhagats who have realized God just by doing His Ustat, this is what 'Prem Bhagti' is all about. And how can you say that Sumiran leads to Mukti and Ustat leads to worldly gain only? I REQUEST YOU to carefully and attentively go through the lines following the above two lines in Guruji's Baani. In the same 'pad' Guruji also says the following, "Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan" which means that "Such a person does not fall into the cycle of birth and death any longer". Isn't that Mukti? 'Maya' becomes the 'daasi' (servant) of the one who is 'Mukt' and so Guruji also spoke of Ridhis, Sidhis and Nidhis becoming available to such a person. Apart from these, Guruji spoke of other attributes of a Mukt person in the same 'pad', but you seem to have ignored those.

Also, just like "Ustat" means praise and has an opposite called "Nindaa" or slander, similarly "Sumiran" also has an opposite. Sumiran is also a word of this world, it is bound to have an opposite. "Sumiran" or "Simran" comes from the Sanskrit word "Smaran", which means "remembrance". In our case, "Sumiran" is the remembrance of God or God's Naam. The opposite of "Smaran" is "Vismaran", which means "to forget". Forgetting God or His Naam is termed as "Vismaran".

Moreover, if people can do Ustat just for material gain then people can do Sumiran just for the same purpose too, isn't it? You say that 'Ustat' with 'Ekaagar Cheet' leads to material gain, but just doing 'Sumiran' leads to 'Mukti'. Yes, Sumiran is capable of leading one to Mukti but so is Ustat. It all depends on how deeply and truly involved a person is, in either or both of the acts.

But now, once again, you seem to want to do Sumiran without paying any attention to it, without any 'Ekaagar Cheet', even though you had accepted the importance of 'Ekaagar Cheet' going along with Sumiran in an earlier message. Why are you getting so confused? You want to do Sumiran without being focused on it? Okay. Try it. See what happens. Experience it for yourself. Like i said earlier, then there would be no difference between you and the Sumiran done by a parrot or even a machine because even a machine can repeat 'Waheguru' like that, without focusing on what it is doing. Is it really so hard to grasp?

NOW I SHALL REPLY TO YOUR OTHER QUERIES...

snavneet:
Indeed, i will clear your doubts as many times as you raise them. I will not get tired because i like discussing spiritual matters. Maybe you will get tired of asking questions. In fact, i feel that i have answered many of your questions in detail in my previous posts. But i am ready to explain everything again and again, in new ways, till the ideas become clear to you.

You speak of 'many' controversies in my posts. Could it be that they appear to be controversies to you, but in reality they are not? Maybe a few more perusals of my posts by you and the controversies could disappear.

We live in a world of duality, in a world of polar opposites. Hence controversies exist because the mind sees two possibilities in everything. And, the unenlightened human mind keeps wavering between these polarities like a pendulum and as a result it remains in distress. So, the ones who have become enlightened try to show us the way. They try to help us find a balance in everything. They guide us to find the middle path. All true religions constitute an attempt to bring the mind at the exact centre of the two polarities. This is elucidated by Guruji when he says, "Khanihu Tikhi Vaalhu Nikee Aet Maarag Jaanaa" meaning that "The path that you have to tread is like the edge of a sword, it is thinner than a hair", indicating that one may easily fall towards either side, towards either polarity. And this falling on either side can happen with respect to Gurbani also, if one is not aware enough. For example, Guru Gobind Singh Ji says, "Namo Andhkaare, Namo Tej Tejey", which means that "God is darkness and God is also the light of lights" or "Salutations to darkness and Salutations to the light of lights". So, is this a controversy? To me, it does not appear to be a controversy. But to a layman, this will appear controversial. The mind of a layman would think, 'Why is Guruji saluting darkness'? Such lay-people find many controversies in Gurbani based on their level of understanding. But that doesn't mean that Gurbani is at fault. The fault lies in the interpretation of Gurbani by these people. And such things happen when people expound Gurbani without living it.

snavneet:
I can assure you that there is no controversy in the above two statements from my posts. You call it a controversy because in one post i spoke of 'the beginning and the end of our spiritual journey' and in the other post i spoke of 'there being no beginning or end to this journey'. But during your observation, you have not considered the contexts in both the posts.

I will try my best to be simple and concise. Requesting your kind attention.

The 'beginnings' and 'ends' of journeys refer to finite things. A journey refers to traveling from one point to another, it could be in space or time or both. A human body can have a journey in space and time. For example, your body started its journey when you were born at some time and place and it will end its journey when you will die at some time and place. This example is from the grosser world. The mind, which is subtler, also has a journey, which is just in time, nevertheless it is a journey in the literal sense. A day will come when you will become 'no-mind', when you will become enlightened, that will be the end of the journey for the mind. This means that there has to be a day when you descended into the world of the mind. But what was there before you descended? In fact, 'what' descended into the world of the mind would constitute a better question? It was your soul. What will become awakened when you become no-mind? The soul. And through Gurbani, we know that the soul is a part of God. And if God has no beginning and no end in time then how can the soul have a beginning and an end in time? If God is beyond time then how can the soul be bound by time? We may talk of the journey of the mind but not the journey of the soul because the journey of the soul never began and will never end.

In my first post, in reply to il_sikh ji, i was speaking of the spiritual journey of the mind. He stated that salvation can be achieved by meditation on God. And i simply wanted to point out that the mind cannot know God and hence it cannot meditate 'on' God. Since the mind is finite, it has to focus on something finite to be able to meditate on it. And that is what i explained in the first post. Simply put, i was talking about the mind and with respect to the mind, there can be a journey, a beginning and an end.

In the other post, in reply to you, i said that 'we all have been on this journey since time immemorial'. Over here i was talking about the journey of the soul, which is a part ("ang") of God. And with respect to the soul, there really cannot be a journey in the literal sense because there is no start or end in this case.

snavneet:
So, you mean to say that the ego of a person and Jaap cannot co-exist? Anybody who starts Jaap, starts also with an ego. It never happens that the ego disppears as soon as the Guru asks us to do Jaap. One has to make some effort. Is it really so hard to grasp?? I knew someone in my family who used to do Jaap, day-in and day-out, but was very egoistic during day-to-day interactions. And you will find many such people in the world. They do not put in the required efforts and expect miracles to happen. Ego doesn't disappear with Jaap or during Jaap. In fact, many-a-times, people become egoistic about the act of doing Jaap! They start competing with others. I have known such people. This clearly indicates that there is something wrong with their efforts and not with Jaap. Ego disappears completely only when "Ajapaa Jaap" is heard. "Ajapaa Jaap" is a kind of confirmation from God, that now you are free of ego! The attempt at Jaap has to be genuine. The rest will be handled by the Guru.

Moreover, i never said that the first two stages of Jaap demand 100% effort from the meditator. I just said that one simply has to make the effort to sit and do Jaap with a one-pointed mind and if the effort is genuine then the Guru's blessings are automatically received. You must have heard the word "Udam"? It occurs many times in Gurbani in various contexts. It simply means "genuine/sincere effort". Consider these simple and straight-forward lines from Gurbani talking about the significance of Udam.

"Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada."
which means,
"The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart."
(this should really clear your doubts about the significance of sincere effort during Jaap)

"Udam Karat Seetal Mann Bhaey."
which means,
"By putting in genuine efforts, the mind became calm and quiet."

Now, let's move to the 3 lines from Gurbani that you quoted.

The first line says that "The technique of taming the mind is known from the Satguru". Indeed, the technique is learnt from the Satguru. But somebody has got to practice the technique, isn't it? Who is going to do it? It has to be done. That's the only amount of effort the Guru expects you to put in. There are many in this world who know all the techniques but do not put them into practice, so they never realize the blessings of the Guru.

The second line says that "Which technique should i use (to realize God), what should i do"? Now, this is a genuine inquiry that comes to the mind of a truth seeker. If one is not fortunate enough to have the guidance of the Satguru then one may go astray. Indeed, the technique to realize God is received at the feet of the True Guru. But there have been many unfortunate ones, who inspite of being at the Guru's feet and inspite of receiving the technique failed to realize God, simply because they did not put the right effort and bring it into practice.

The third line says that "We receive the essence of the Naam at the feet of the holy". Indeed, we may receive the essence of the Naam at the feet of the realized One. But is that enough? Is nothing expected from your end? At the very least, do you not have to follow your Guru? Isn't following the Guru sincerely, also an Udam, a genuine effort?

I don't know why you quoted these lines because they do not contradict anything that i said before. These lines do not talk of the effort expected from the Sikh, they talk about the ways in which one may receive the right technique to put effort into.

snavneet:
Did i ever say that Ajapaa Jaap gets matured? Did i ever say that we hear Ajapaa Jaap right from our first attempt at Sumiran? Not even once. Then why even bring Ajapaa Jaap into context when you are asking about one's ego getting matured through effort?

Now let us talk about the maturing of one's effort during Naam-Jap. There comes a time when someone does Sumiran for the first time. Ego remains, it doesn't disappear immediately. Under the guidance of the Guru, as one progresses and becomes more involved in Sumiran, ego weakens more and more, until one day the last vestige of ego remains. Again with the guidance of the Guru, and with Udam of the Sikh, this last remaining amount of ego also disappears and one becomes Mukt of ego permanently. The Guru's role is that of guiding the Sikh at each step and preventing him from going astray or falling asleep. But the Guru will not carry the Sikh on the path, the Guru will never force the Sikh. The Sikh has to walk on his own, on the path shown by the Guru. What is so hard to understand in that? Simply put, the Guru guides and the Sikh follows. At least, that much effort is expected from the Sikh. But if the Sikh starts feeling that he is smarter than the Guru and does not need the Guru's guidance and leaves the Guru, only then does his ego mature. When i speak of effort, i am just appreciating the importance of sincere effort or 'Udam' from the devotee, which is the basic minimum as per Gurbani. If there is no 'Udam' then one cannot mature on the spiritual path. 'Udam' is just about facing the Guru all the time and not turning your back towards Him. Hence Gurbani speaks of Gurmukhs and Manmukhs. 'Gurmukh' is someone who remains facing towards the Guru, always ready to learn, and Manmukh is someone who turns the back towards the Guru. The Guru will never force you to turn around. He will just keep showering His wisdom on you, until you put that little bit of effort and turn away from your mind and turn towards your Guru. That little bit of effort, 'to remain focused on the Guru', is required.

I hope this clears it up for you.

snavneet:
In Gurbani, you will not find a single line that says, "Ek Omkar is equal to Ajapaa Jaap". Gurbani is not teaching us mathematical equations. If you are looking for that kind of a reference then i am sorry i cannot provide one. But i can assure you that the references required to understand the above are available in Gurbani. But you will have to explore!
Moreover, i want to say some more very important things, which you will have to try to understand. So, i request your complete attention. Gurbani says that God is unfathomable, that God cannot be described, that one may keep on describing God but that process will never end. I hope you agree. And Gurbani itself is not excluded from this fact. Gurbani does not attempt to describe God completely because in that case Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji would be never ending, and that is not the case. Gurbani guides us so that God may be experienced by us. Gurbani makes us aware of facts that are capable of inspiring us, so that we could reach that stage where we may experience God ourselves. So, Gurbani is not an attempt at the complete description of God or His Creation because Gurbani itself declares that it is not possible to do so. But whatever Gurbani says is True because it comes out of the Self-Realization of many souls. But there are many things that Gurbani doesn't say directly. But that doesn't mean that they become false. Gurbani doesn't claim that truth starts and ends with Gurbani because then truth would become finite, God would become finite, God's Creation would become finite. But Gurbani can help us realize and experience the truth for ourselves. I am saying all this because you will keep asking for proofs for whatever i say, but there is no readymade proof of things that are existentially true. And i am not asking you to believe me either. I am requesting you to explore Gurbani as much as possible so that you may realize things on your own. And, i do have the right to state what i have understood, don't i? And i can definitely clarify things for you as much as they are clear for me.

'Omkar' is the 'Dhun' of 'Om' that is 'kar' (resonating) throughout the Creation and it is 'Ek' (one). It is the 'Anhad Dhun' and the 'Ajapaa Jaap'. It is 'Anhad' because nothing was struck to create this sound because in order to strike and generate a sound two objects are needed, one that you strike with and one that is struck. But this "Anhad Dhun" does not arise from duality, it comes from God, it is One, it is not produced due to friction between two objects. It is called 'Ajapaa' because after realization it is heard even though one may stop one's oral or mindful Jaap. And there appears to be no source of the 'Dhun' or 'Jaap'. The sound is just heard, at all times, at every place. Everything seems to be the source because God is in everything. One cannot single out any source of the sound. The qualities of "Ek Omkar" that Gurbani mentions match perfectly with the qualitites of "Ajapaa Jaap" or "Anhad Dhun" that Gurbani expounds. Gurbani will guide you to the above realization.

My friend, Gurbani has to be lived and realized. Even if i rationally prove something to you then that will not become true for you because truth is all about experience. The word Self-realization sums this up. Realize it for yourself and nobody will have to convince you. What i have understood from Gurbani is what i have written above. But that doesn't mean that you have to believe me blindly.

snavneet:
Although "Ek" goes along with "Omkar", it is not a part of "Omkar". It is just indicative that there is only "One" like the "Omkar", that there is no other.

Etymologically, based on Gurmukhi grammar, "Omkar" can be split up into "Om" and "kar", where "kar" means something that keeps repeating itself, such as in "Jaikar". In "Omkar", what is that which is repeating? It has to be "Om" because "kar" is attached to it. My point is that "Ek" and "kar" are describing the essential qualities of "Om", that there is only "One" like it and it "repeats forever". Hope this helps.

snavneet:
I have explained this above. But, in short, i will explain it again.

Ego is something that leaves us gradually. It doesn't leave us on our first day of meditation itself. You must have done Jaap at some or the other time in the past. Are you egoless now? No. The reason is that you haven't reached that stage when the Guru may pull you out of it with your readiness and without using any force. I h