Meditation on God Help

Surinder Kaur Cheema · #11 (**permalink**) 09-05-2006, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balbir Singh

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Surinder Cheema Ji!

You wrote "Siri Sukhmani Sahib Ji: 24 Astpaddies, refer to 24 hours of the day"

Still, I did not come across a person doing Paath of Sri Sukhmani Sahib Ji for twenty-four hours of the day. Nor he or she promises to do it for twenty four or (two+four) six times.

Numbers and numerology may be like the worldly religions and theology. Neither counting nor studying that one has ever reached Truth.

Gurdev is singing in ecstasy "kayti-aa ganat nahee veechaar." Japu Ji Sahib - SGGS Ang 5
So many count. They do not contemplate.

Another wonderful Vaak from Guru Raam Daas Ji is this.

"ganat ganai so jalai sansaaraa."
One, who counts, burns (suffers) in the world.

"sahsaa mool na chukai vikaaraa."
Spontaneously from roots imperfections do not finish.

"gurmukh hovai so ganat chukaa-ay sachay sach samaa-idaa." SGGS Ang 1062
One, who turns to Gurmukh, finishes counting, truly merges in Truth.

You wrote "In my opinion if this number phylosophy or time phylosophy can make you sit and recite Bani, and it is actually igniting the contemplation of Bani in your mind, and finally leading you to live accordingly, it is not bad."

The Gurus never suggested us to do Simran counting it.

Perhaps a human being, who spends whole life counting materials, cannot get rid of numbers while searching Truth.

Balbir Singh

Respected Veer Balbir Singh Ji,

As I said before I may be wrong. I used to wonder about this as well. But then I tried to find out why people say they use it and does it really work. My research boils down to this: it can be used to start, but it works for only those people who have very strong belief in Bani. If they believe only in Numerology, it may bring some material benefits for them as they are the ones who do it more like lip-reading, there is no spiritual uplift of any kind.

There is neither only one religion in this world nor only one belief. So if something works for a person to start on a rightous path, I do not think it is bad. Take the example of Bhagat Dhanna: Guru Sahib has not recomended Murti Puja anywhere, but his mention is there in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We all know that he did stone worship, BUT WITH ONE POINTEDNESS, and was enlightened. Again, I am not recomending stone worship. It all depends how the person percieves things, once he/she is actually starting to follow Guru's teachings.

Take the example of Bhumian chor, he was not ready to stop stealing but he was so truthful to Guru's word and actually did all what Guru Sahib told him to do.

One poitedness is all that matters. Once a person is so lost in what Guru is saying, i tell you nothing else remains. Any body from any religion, one who is a realized person, will not denounce any phylosophy that can put you to a start.

Guru Sahib when talks about ginti ganana and all that, is bewaring us not to get lost into such practices. There are so many people who use the nitnem schedules, how many are the realized souls out of them. Main reason is that they are lost in completing their nitnem everyday, that is all, there is no concentration on what is being read. Exactly same is with number idiology, you get lost in numbers you are lost.

Bani is so powerfull veerji, it turns the toughest around. These numbers and these nitnem styles loose their power once bani reaches into rom rom, provided it is done with one pointedness.

Soul_jyot · #12 (**permalink**) 09-05-2006, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surinder Kaur Cheema

Respected Veer Balbir Singh Ji,

As I said before I may be wrong. I used to wonder about this as well. But then I tried to find out why people say they use it and does it really work. My research boils down to this: it can be used to start, but it works for only those people who have very strong belief in Bani. If they believe only in Numerology, it may bring some material benefits for them as they are the ones who do it more like lip-reading, there is no spiritual uplift of any kind.

There is neither only one religion in this world nor only one belief. So if something works for a person to start on a rightous path, I do not think it is bad. Take the example of Bhagat Dhanna: Guru Sahib has not recomended Murti Puja anywhere, but his mention is there in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We all know that he did stone worship, BUT WITH ONE POINTEDNESS, and was enlightened. Again, I am not recomending stone worship. It all depends how the person percieves things, once he/she is actually starting to follow Guru's teachings.

Take the example of Bhumian chor, he was not ready to stop stealing but he was so truthful to Guru's word and actually did all what Guru Sahib told him to do.

One poitedness is all that matters. Once a person is so lost in what Guru is saying, i tell you nothing else remains. Any body from any religion, one who is a realized person, will not denounce any phylosophy that can put you to a start.

Guru Sahib when talks about ginti ganana and all that, is bewaring us not to get lost into such practices. There are so many people who use the nitnem schedules, how many are the realized souls out of them. Main reason is that they are lost in completing their nitnem everyday, that is all, there is no concentration on what is being read. Exactly same is with number idiology, you get lost in numbers you are lost.

Bani is so powerfull veerji, it turns the toughest around. These numbers and these nitnem styles loose their power once bani reaches into rom rom, provided it is done with one pointedness.

Respected Bhanji Surinder:

I totally subscribe to your views. Only an evolved & enlightened spiritual soul / Mahapurkh, who has done "Naam de Kamai", can truly coach & guide us like a genuine teacher - from personal experience. Others can just talk about it from academic point of view only. WALKING & TALKING the spiritual path are two different issues!

With Devine Love & Blessings.

Harbhajan S. Sangha

Balbir Singh · #13 (**permalink**) 10-05-2006, 04:44 AM

Pray truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Surinder Cheema Ji!

You wrote "My research boils down to this: it can be used to start, but it works for only those people who have very strong belief in Bani."

I do not know if God has a measuring scale. I feel His Grace just showers.

You also wrote "One poitedness is all that matters."

Please provide a reference from Gurbani. I will be grateful.

Some people are busy with different numbers hoping to reach one-pointedness on a lucky day.

Your sentence "Guru Sahib when talks about ginti ganana and all that, is bewaring us not to get lost into such practices" has impressed me.

**************

Harbhajan S. Sangha Ji!

You wrote "Only an evolved & enlightened spiritual soul / Mahapurkh, who has done "Naam de Kamai", can truly coach & guide us like a genuine teacher - from personal experience."

I hope you have come to know ONE.

You wrote further "Others can just talk about it from academic point of view only. WALKING & TALKING the spiritual path are two different issues!"

The art of living is not coming to know many of them.

Balbir Singh

Surinder Kaur Cheema · #14 (**permalink**) 10-05-2006, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balbir Singh

Pray truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Surinder Cheema Ji!

You wrote "My research boils down to this: it can be used to start, but it works for only those people who have very strong belief in Bani."

I do not know if God has a measuring scale. I feel His Grace just showers.

I simply do not want to know what you mean by the measuring tape concept. All I know that any thing works if it is done with strong belief.

And having a strong belief is the most difficult attribute to achieve. To bring this in your heart and mind, you never know what is going to work. Sometimes a person needs only one small incidence that triggers the belief, in some cases it is a book, sometimes it could be something that happened to somebody else; there are endless possibilities. How God’s power is going to work, a common mind cannot perceive.

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Teg Bahadur Ji says:

gj kI qRws imtI iCnhU mih jb hI rwmu bKwno ]
The elephant's fear was taken away in an instant, as soon as he chanted the Lord's Name.

nwrd khq sunq DR¨A bwirk Bjn mwih lptwno ]
Listening to Naarad's teachings, the child Dhroo was absorbed in deep meditation.

Yes His Grace just showers. But it happens only when Sadhak reaches a certain point, a state of mind. But to get to that point(iCn) lots of sacrifices are needed. The path to that point of time is not easy. So many are struggling to reach there using unlimited means. But again you have to follow the Guru with FULL FAITH. No devotion No achievement.

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji says:
rwm rwm sBu ko khY kihAY rwmu n hoie ]

Everyone chants the Lord's Name, Raam, Raam; but just by chanting, the Lord is not obtained.

SGGS Page 491

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Ram Das Ji says:
syvk isK pUjx siB Awvih siB gwvih hir hir aUqm bwnI ]
All the Sikhs and servants come to worship and adore You; they sing the sublime Bani of the Lord, Har, Har.

gwivAw suixAw iqn kw hir Qwie pwvY ijn siqgur kI AwigAw siq siq kir mwnI ]1]
Their singing and listening is approved by the Lord; they accept the Order of the True Guru as True, totally True. SSGS Page 669

Again He says:
hir dir iqn kI aUqm bwq hY sMqhu hir kQw ijn jnhu jwnI ]
They alone are praised in the Court of the Lord, O Saints, who know and understand the Lord's sermon.
Page 669

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balbir Singh

You also wrote "One poitedness is all that matters."

Please provide a reference from Gurbani. I will be grateful.

One pointedness- I do not think you understood what I meant by it, because it is mentioned in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji many many times. It is the sustained attention towards the Almighty. Or it can be said the focusing of our attention on God ceaselessly. Or un-splitted concentration….One Pointedness is the attribute that is most important on the Spiritual path.

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji says:
iek min eyku iDAweIAY mn kI lwih BrWiq ]
With one-pointed mind, meditate on the One Lord, by doing so all the doubts of your mind will be dispelled. SGGS Page 46

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji says:

ey mn hir jI iDAwie qU iek min iek iciq Bwie ]
O mind, meditate on the Dear Lord, with single-minded conscious concentration. SSGS Page 653

Dhan Dhan Bhatt Bhikha Ji saya:
sic scu jwxIAY iek icqih ilv lwvY ]
In truth, the True Lord is recognized and realized, when one is lovingly attuned to Him, with one-pointed consciousness. SGGS Page 1395

A lot has been said about the controlling of our wandering mind: what else does it mean to you other than one pointedness. Like:

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji says:
Dwvq mnu rwKY iek Twie ]
Keep your wandering mind restrained in one place. SGGS Page 299

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji says:
mnUAw n folY gurmuiK bUJY Dwvqu vrij rhwey ]
His mind does not waver; as Gurmukh, he understands. He restrains it from wandering out. SGGS Page 1012

A lot of devotion is needed on this path. Guru Ji says

hau KVI inhwlI pMDu mqu mUM sjxu Awvey ]
I stand by the side of the road, waiting for You; O my Friend, I hope that You will come.

ko Awix imlwvY Aju mY ipru myil imlwvey ]
If only someone would come today and unite me in Union with my Beloved.

hau jIau krI iqs ivtau cau KMnIAY jo mY iprI idKwvey ]
I would cut my living body into four pieces for anyone who shows me my Beloved.

nwnk hir hoie dieAwlu qW guru pUrw mylwvey ]5]
O Nanak, when the Lord becomes merciful, then He leads us to meet the Perfect Guru.

ijnI siqguru mMinAW hau iqn ky lwgau pwie ]
I touch the feet of those who believe in and obey the True Guru.

nwnku qw kw dwsu hY ij Anidnu rhY ilv lwie ]6]

Nanak is the slave of those who, night and day, remain lovingly attuned to the Lord.

Then:
BweI ry mIqu krhu pRBu soie ]
O Siblings of Destiny, make God your Friend.

Then:
sdw sdw AwrwDIAY idnu ivsrhu nhI rwiq ]3]
Forever and ever, worship and adore Him. Day and night, do not forget Him. ||3||

Then:
dyKY suxY hdUir sd Git Git bRhmu rivMdu ]
Seeing and hearing, He is always close at hand. In each and every heart, God is pervading.

This path is not that easy as it sounds to many. You have surrender totally by body and mind; and burn your ego:

qnu mnu kwit kwit sBu ArpI ivic AgnI Awpu jlweI ]

I Alologise if it is hurting your faith but this is all Guru's teachings. Also I apologise if any double negatives of mine confused anybody. It only meant that we should not get lost in countings. If it made you laugh at me that is great, at least you laughed.

Balbir Singh · #15 (**permalink**) 11-05-2006, 02:55 AM

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Surinder Ji!

Thanks for referring wonderful Vaaks from the Gurus. Your first reference about one-pointedness is this.

iek min eyku iDAweIAY mn kI lwih BrWiq ]

The conforming line before this Vaak is here.

ijsu pyKq iklivK ihrih min qin hovY sWiq ]
"jis paykhat kilvikh hireh man tan hovai saaNt."
Watching that sins vanish from mind, body comes to rest.

iek min eyku iDAweIAY mn kI lwih BrWiq ]
"ik man ayk Dhi-aa-ee-ai man kee laahi bharaaNt." SGGS Ang 47-4
Peerless mind meditates ONE dispelling doubt of mind.

In my experience the most relevant part here is jis paykhat (watching that). The peerless state of mind is the result of it, not the one-pointedness that matters all.

Let us come to your next example ey mn hir jI iDAwie qU iek min iek iciq Bwie ]

Guru Amar Das Ji is again praising here the contemplation on Hari that pleases mind and intellect.

Surprising is your suggestion to reach iek min iek iciq by one-pointedness of the mind (iek min iek iciq). It is something like asking someone to touch the tip of an index finger with the same tip.

**************

I am hearty thankful for your company on this forum and extending the great Satsang.

Balbir Singh

vijaydeep Singh · #16 (**permalink**) 11-05-2006, 05:57 PM

Gurfateh
Das thinks that bro is trying to say that Akal isalready in mind?

Surinder Kaur Cheema · #17 (**permalink**) 11-05-2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balbir Singh

iek min eyku iDAweIAY mn kI lwih BrWiq ]
"ik man ayk Dhi-aa-ee-ai man kee laahi bharaaNt." SGGS Ang 47-4
Peerless mind meditates ONE dispelling doubt of mind.

In my experience the most relevant part here is jis paykhat (watching that). The peerless state of mind is the result of it, not the one-pointedness that matters all.

Respected Veer Balbir Singh Ji,

With due respect, Jis paykhat-Seeing God: Now can you tell me how can you see/feel God without any one pointed struggle - Devotion to One and only One, Meditation on One and only One, Surrender to One and only One, Vairaag for One and only One.......

ijsu pyKq iklivK ihrih, min qin hovY sWiq ] iek min eyku iDAweIAy mn kI lwih BrWiq ]
The translation that you are doing is not that way: It simply says By seeing Whom, your sins are eradicated and your mind and body comes to peace; you should do His Simran by stopping the useless wandering of your mind(by bringing it to One God). Real Simran can only be done by placing your mind on one God. Yes Mental Peace comes after God Realization.

Yes it happens with God's grace only, but His grace comes with some effort of the human mind. As Guru Sahib says:

mn qUM joiq srUpu hY Awpxw mUlu pCwxu ]

If it was supposed to just happen, Guru Sahib or other Prophets did not have to go through all, and did not have to leave us with Bani da Khazana and all that.

Without residing under Guru/God's shelter with unshakable faith nothing happens. This is one pointed devotion.

I know Veer Balbir Singh Ji, you are still not going to agree with this. But this is the truth. This is posted for those who are looking for the right translations.

Surinder Kaur Cheema · #18 (**permalink**) 11-05-2006, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vijaydeep Singh

Gurfateh
Das thinks that bro is trying to say that Akal isalready in mind?

Respected Ceer Vijaydeep Singh Ji,

Yes Akal is already in mind. But the translations he is doing are not correct at all.
http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/0047.html

Surinder Kaur Cheema · #19 (**permalink**) 11-05-2006, 08:19 PM

Respected Sadh Sangat Ji,

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Angad Dev Ji says
ijsu pyKq iklivK ihrih, min qin hovY sWiq ] iek min eyku iDAweIAy mn kI lwih BrWiq ] SGGS Page 47

By seeing Whom(God), your sins are eradicated and your mind and body comes to peace; you should do His Simran by stopping the useless wandering of your mind(by bringing it to One God), by doing His Simran with one pointed Devotion(through mn and surq) all your doudts will be removed.

Balbir Singh · #20 (**permalink**) 11-05-2006, 09:48 PM

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Surinder Ji!

Some understand Guru's words 'Jis paykhat' seeing God. This would explain that One sees God first and then by seeing God, he reaches one-pointedness.
This is contradictory to that what one writes, i.e., we need one-pointedness first to see God. God is not 'Jis' in any language, also among enlightened persons.

This is a good query "Now can you tell me how can you see/feel God without any one pointed struggle"

One does not realize God by one-pointed struggle. One realizes God by True Simran received by the Grace of HIM through the Satguru. Devotion, Meditation, Surrendering and Vairaag are its out turns.

Quote "you should do His Simran by stopping the useless wandering of your mind(by bringing it to One God)."

I hope we remember the Guru's words "sochai soch na hova-ee jay sochee lakh vaar." SGGS Ang 1

Simran is not being busy stopping the useless wandering of your mind(by bringing it to One God).

Quote "Yes Mental Peace comes after God Realization."

I feel Mental Peace comes along with True Simran.

Quote "Yes it happens with God's grace only, but His grace comes with some effort of the human mind."

It looks like ego is still trying to play hide and seek game. Without some effort of the human mind how is it possible for ego to win God.

This is interesting to read this "If it was supposed to just happen, Guru Sahib or other Prophets did not have to go through all, and did not have to leave us with Bani da Khazana and all that."

I have seen millions of people carrying a tap under the arm and wondering why they are thirsty.

Quote "Without residing under Guru/God's shelter with unshakable faith nothing happens. This is one pointed devotion."

Please do not leave HIS Shelter, one-pointed devotion and let your faith shake. However, let people come to know God first.

I have often heard preachers reaching one-pointedness to realize God. I will enjoy knowing whose mind has ever followed a preacher.

Balbir Singh