Shabat Katha? Shabad Kirtan? What Is Going On in Gurdwaras Sahib?

drkhalsa · #1 (**permalink**) 18-Mar-2006, 18:22 PM

Taken from http://www.punjabnewsline.com

Rababi kirtan can only be revived in India: Bhai Lal

Manpreet Kaur Wednesday, 15 March 2006
Manpreet Kaur

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8404-shabat-katha-shabad-kirtan-what-going.html

http://images.google.com/images?q=tb...41019/pun2.jpg

PATIALA: "At the time of partition no body was ready to allow a Muslim Rababi to stay in India, and in Pakistan there are no Sikhs, aware of the value of Rababi Kirtan, so this ancient tradition made by Guru Nanak and Mardana is moving towards threshold of its end. Only India can revive this ancient tradition." Said Bhai Lal, descendant of Mardana. Bhai lal leads to 17th generation of Mardana.

He was born in Goindwal Sahib, District Amritsar and after Partition immigrated to Lahore. According to him a Rababi is who praises the God with Rabab.
Talking about singing of Gurbani in present era he said that what is going on these days in Gurdwara Sahibs is 'Shabad Katha' and not 'Shabad Kirtan'. Nayeem Tahir, son of Bhai Lal further added that in the times of Gurus the kirtan was having such melody in it that the listeners could not think of any thing else at that time and there was pin drop silence among Sangat during Kirtan. The Gurbani was chanted in so melodious and clear words that there was no need to tell the meaning of lines to people. But these days that sanctity is absent in Gurbani Ras.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8404
Bhai Lal gives the reason of Lack of Melody in Kirtan of current times that these days Kirtankars are singing Gurbani just for earning money; no body bothers about loyalty towards God, but is worried about his commission only. As these days most of the Raagis are eager to go abroad. Bhai Lal also disclosed that he never takes money for Rababi kirtan. He has also performed this ancient tradition in Canada, England and Hong Kong and India.
Bhai Lal likes to perform at the place where people can appraise the importance of this Rababi Kirtan of Mardana and can understand the message of Guru Nanak hidden in the Gurbani, he sings. He also expressed his grief about that in Pakistan no body takes interest in listening to or learning about Rababi Kirtan, but it is being liked most in the western countries. He also lauded the effort in Golden Temple to apprise the old Traditions of singing of Gurbani.
Bhai Lal Singh is teaching the original forms of Rababi Kirtan to the students of Gurmat Sangeet in Punjabi University. It is the first time that he is teaching this art to the next generation. His son Nayeem says that it takes many years to sing like Bhai Lal as even he is not expert in that till now.
The great thing to worry about is that after Bhai Lal, there will be nobody who has expertise in this ancient art. That’s why the Rababi Kirtan by Bhai Lal is been recorded and will be preserved in the Sant Sucha Singh Archive of Punjabi University for the coming generations.

AdsKhalsa · #2 (**permalink**) 11-Jun-2009, 21:07 PM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8404

Thanks for sharing...we need efforts to save our tradition...............

Chardi Kala......

Tejwant Singh · #3 (**permalink**) 11-Jun-2009, 21:59 PM

Katha is a double edged knife. Very few who delve into Gurbani and know it are very good at it. Most of the others concoct their own stories inbetween Gurbani lines to impress the audience.

So whose fault is this where these false Katha-vaachaks with Kachi Bani - as Guru Amar Das calls it-rake money in the Gurdwaras and mislead the Sangat?

It is no one's fault but the Sangat's. We as Sikhs have become good parrots by doing daily Nitnems, weekly/monthly Sukhmanis, yearly Sehaj Paaths but the sad part is that none of us spends the real time to understand Gurbani. By just cramming the manuals of how to fly a plane, not a pilot makes. Nor can one become a doctor by just memorising the medical books. And we can talk about all the fields of work in our lives. If we can not run our lives of Miri without any understanding hence become failures, how can we lead the life of Piri without understanding Gurbani, when Piri is the foundation on which Miri is built?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8404

This laziness of ours and to some extent it is also disrespectful to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by making it an Idol worship rather than something to understand and educate ourselves with so that we can make it a life changing tool box- the real metamorphosis-. It has also opened the flood gates for the false Katha-vaachaks and the Derawalas.

Only when we come to the realisation that if we study, understand and practice Gurbani in our own lives, then we can get rid of the false Katha- Vaachaks, so called Sants and the Derawalas.

This is one more reason I get bewildered by those who in this forum quote Kathavaachaks rather than our Gurus through Gurbani.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8404

Blind faith in these Katha- Vaachaks is the same as having blind faith in the Derawalas.

Tejwant Singh

Narayanjot Kaur · #4 (**permalink**) 12-Jun-2009, 02:10 AM

I am going to have to edit the title of this thread. It is too long, and I cannot understand what it means. Please provide some insight. Currently the title is a run-on sentence and two ideas are running together.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8404

Naming of threads is getting to be a bit of a problem these days. Please read the rules for starting threads when you start them.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8404

OK - now is the thread title about this. Something is wrong in Gurdwaras Sahib. Shabad Katha is taking the place of Shabad Kirtan. If this is what the title is saying, let me know and then I will work on making it shorter.

Thanks aad0002

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #5 (**permalink**) 12-Jun-2009, 09:37 AM

Shabad Katha OR. Shabad kirtan ? could be clearer and concise.

Narayanjot Kaur · #6 (**permalink**) 12-Jun-2009, 10:14 AM

Thanks Gyani ji

Because of Google search I left a lot of the main words in the title. But the concise questions at the beginning draw attention and are clear.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #7 (**permalink**) 12-Jun-2009, 10:20 AM

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

Tejwant Ji has aptly explained it all.
WE SIKHS have ABDICATED ALL RESPONSIBILITY....we are TRAITORS to GURMATT. Strong words !! YES...and of necessity.

1. KIRTAN. Guru Ji asked US..the SIKHS...the SANGAT to do KIRTAN - OURSELVES.
Things came to a head right in front of Guru Arjun ji Sahib....when the two Muslim Rababis Satta and Balwand Ji..became full of HANKAAR ( that its OUR KIRTAN SKILLS that DRAW the SANGAT TO GURU JI...without OUR KIRTAN..the GURU WILL LOSE all his Sangat !!) So on a pretext (long story)..they went on STRIKE !! First strike in Sikh history. Sikhs went to the Ragis and begged them to return...Eminent Sikhs like Baba budha Ji, Bhai Gurdass Ji went...no avail..the RAGIS stuck to their STUBBORN STAND..NO. Guru Ji also WENT in person...the Hankarees not only INSULTED GURU ARJUN JI..they also INSULTED GURU NANAK JI SAHIB. That was the Last Straw...Guru Ji said..I can take any insult..BUT an insult to GURU NANAK JI is somethign i cannot accept. From then on GURU JI took the Instruments...and instructed the Sangat to do JOTTIAN Kirtan...all together.
The Satta Balwand duo then realised their FOLLY....and began to look for a "negotiater"...BUT Guru Ji had banned all such "advocates"...the order was that anyone pleading on their behalf would be punished with face blackening and made to sit on a donkey..at last the Two Ragis managed to find a SIKH..so devout that HE self Blackened his own Face, and sitting on a Donkey arrived in the Guru darbaar and begged Guru Ji to Forgive the two....and he told Guru Ji..I have alreday accepted the punishment for pleading on their behalf...Guru Ji laughed...and allowed the two back...thats when they Sang the Satta balwand VAAR in Ramklali Raag..PRAISING the Same GURU Nnaak Ji and the other Gurus they had mistakenly insulted. THIS VAAR is SUPERFLOUSLY PRAISING GURU SAHIBS...comparing them to previous incarnations of Vishnu, Hindu devtas etc etc....BUT it is accepted as GURBANI becasue the DEEPER MEANINGS point towards AKAL PURAKH.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8404
Till the late 1960's SANGATS still snag Kiratn in Jottians..in MALAYSIA TOO WE HAD A GARGAJJ JATHA using Chimtas and Dholkis etc to Sing kirtan loudly and the snagat woudl join in so enthuisatically...
ALL this STOPPED with the advent of the 3 MAN Ragi jatha..2 Vajahs and one Tabla man...PERFORMING KIRTAN on Stage while everyone just LISTENED. On the SIDE LINE..these 3 Man Groups also began to do Sehaj paaths..Akhand Paaths, Ardasses in Private Homes...etc to earn OVERTIME PAY....and soemtimes they would recruit naother two memebers..and Become PANJ PIYARAS...to Eat saradhs...Food served to "PANJ SINGHS"..in BRAHMIN FASHION...to fulfill wishes/send food to departed souls//etc..AS time went on..these 3 Man jathas EXPANDED like Mushrooms after a shower....then the FIGHTING for PRIME TIME also began...as more jathas than time....at times we used to have as amny as five jathas at one go...( LOcal TOUTS also sprang up...to Manage these Jathas..for a FEE of course...these touts arranged the jathas, got them tickets, places to perform..gurdawara stages..transported them from one Gurdwara to another in super quick fashion..so they could serve as amny as three Gurdawars in a short span of time...and SHARE/or take their CUT of teh SHABAD BHET..and thus Compettion began..which Jatha will goive a bigger cut..earn bigger income....)Then the 3 Man jathas began to DISAPPEAR...underground...in the WEST...KABOOTARBAZEE...Gurdwara Parbhandaks began to brign in their own..friends..relatives...as Ragi jatha..and then made them disappear as illegals...thii still going ON !! Have heard from many such personal horror stories..exploitation..greed....ANY WONDER THEN that this has DETERIORATED so much...KIRTAN is for GAIN ONLY...no parchaar..no love for Gurbani...so STANDARDS DROP !! very Visible..drop in standards..every one is a "Hazooree ragi"...ever hear of the POPE..or the vatican Bishops...arriving at a LOCAL CHURCH to "serve as Priest" ?? well OUR Hazooree ragis..even Tkahat jathedars..arrive/send applications to serve as GRANTHIS...in Local Gurdawaras...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8404

2. So we then advance to Shabad Katha...since Kiratn is just for earning money...and not many of the ragis/Hazooree ragis etc actually KNOW much Gurbani - being trained in DERAS...5% of their Shabad Kirtan/katha is ONE Panktee of a Gurbani Shabad...and 95% of..WADDEH BABAJI KEHNDEH HUNDEH SEE ( Here Waddeh baba Ji is their own DERA CHIEF..and thus by Comparison..the Baba Ji who wrote the GURBANI automatically becomes CHHOTTEH Babaji..but who cares ??)...kehndeh hundeh see..used to SAY..and SAY..and SAY..blah blah blah...Waddeh baba ji da ek kuttah hu8ndah see..usdah na see moti....moti used to matha tek to waddeh abba ji..daily...blah blah blah..and then oen day Waddeh babab Ji said...bring moti...blah blah blah...interspersed with Boloh ji Waheguru..Satnam Waheguru...then once more the Gurbani panktee..and back to waddeh babajis TALL TALES...ALL these jathas are from the DERAS..nanaksar..other sant deras..and newer Taksaals like Mta Kaullan Ji Taksaal etc..BUT the "Waddeh babaji are all from nanaksar/related deras...and their kirtan tours are to promote their DERA BABA ONLY..not GURBANI. THUS they NEVER DO AARTHS..never explain GURBANI..IF they do...then its TWISTED meanings..Miracle stories..mantars and jantars..to cure such and such disease etc etc...and BACK to Baba ji of their DERA.

Mostly ALL Gurdwaras invite such 3 man jathas..and that what we get in terms of parchaar...no wonder the Sikhs are going DOWNHILL....Sangats are entertained..Golucks overflow...Parbhandaks are happy..
GURBANI can safely stay under the Shining expensive Rumallahs....all wrapped up...with Chaur sahib bwing whisked above....

TRUTH is we have NO Shabad...NO KIRTAN...NO KATHA....of SUBSTANCE anymore..and we are solely RESPONSIBLE for this MESS. Its all entertainment....stories...miracles miracle cures..hocus pocus..or TWO LINERS that are sung with GUSTO by the babas...dhaarnas...jingle bells all the way.....while GURBANI is supposedly too difficult..snagat nu smajh nahin aundee ji.....sangats cant understand Gurbani..its too difficult..our two liner Jingle Bells are so easy..catchy..too....even the women can sing along...AA Giya Baba Vaid Rogian daa..or AA Giya Vanjara chhorrian leke...after all GURBANI is so DEEP..so SUBLIME..so "Arshi"..we are people of the World..low..earthy types...farmers..farm labour...
WE MUST TAKE ACTION FAST or we lose it all...if we havent lost it already...

Huck_Finn · #8 (**permalink**) 12-Jun-2009, 10:47 AM

YouTube - Kirtan - Bhai Lall Ji & Jatha

Narayanjot Kaur · #9 (**permalink**) 12-Jun-2009, 11:28 AM

amarsanghera ji

I am very confused and need to have it explained in simple terms. The ragis (in the video that you posted) are not keshdhari and can't even tie a decent dastar. Is it the same Bahi Lall? See the video in this post to compare.

Here is Bhai Lal who is the 17th generation of Bhai Mardana. Then the Bhai Lall in post 8 is also supposed to be 17 generation of Bhai Mardana. Yet we see a part of the sangat getting up and walking out in the middle of his kirtan. So anything you can do to clear it up, either on the thread or by pm would be immensely helpful.

YouTube - Shabad Kirtan - Bhai Lall Ji & Jatha @ Amritsar, India 2007

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8404
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8404
Qyoted material from YouTube site
Kirtan - Bhai Lall Ji & Jatha. Bhai Lall Ji is the actual 17th generation muslim descendant of Bhai Mardana Ji (1459-1534). Bhai Mardana Ji was a follower and travelling companion of the Sikh founder Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj. He was with Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj in all of his journeys across India and Asia, which was for around fifty-four years. Bhai Mardana Ji used to play the string instrument, the Rabab, while Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj would sing shahads, paath etc. Some of Bhai Mardana Ji's shabads are in Sri Guru Granth Saihb Ji. The very first raagi acknowleged in Sikh history was Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaajs trusted friend and companion, Bhai Mardana Ji.

Bhai Lall Ji (sitting on the middle vaja) is a very knowledgeable muslim on Sikhism. He knows most of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by heart. His father was the Hazoori Ragi at Goindwal Sahib. Bhai Lal ji is devoted to the kirtan traditions of Gurmat Sangeet. The video was taken in Amritsar, India, in the 2007.

Some more info on Bhai Lall Ji on the link below

http://www.gurmatsangeet.org/index.ph...

The shabad that Bhai Lall Ji is reciting is "gobindh milan kee eih thaeree bareeaa". The meaning of the Shabad is shown on the link below.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp...