Namdharis

CaramelChocolate · #1 (**permalink**) 14-Jun-2005, 18:06 PM

Sat sri akaal,

Although the definition of a Sikh seems to be someone who believes in the teachings of the ten Gurus and believes in Adi Granth as the 11th and final Guru, GURU GRANTH SAHIB... There are Sikhs that do not believe this... Some Sikhs say this is wrong and that these people are not Sikhs and they actually hate the naamdharis. Fair enough, they do not consider them Sikhs, but why can't they consider them to be another faith worshipping Waheguruji with good values, since anyone from any religion can reach God?
*

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #2 (**permalink**) 14-Jun-2005, 19:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaramelChocolate

Sat sri akaal,

Although the definition of a Sikh seems to be someone who believes in the teachings of the ten Gurus and believes in Adi Granth as the 11th and final Guru, GURU GRANTH SAHIB... There are Sikhs that do not believe this... Some Sikhs say this is wrong and that these people are not Sikhs and they actually hate the naamdharis. Fair enough, they do not consider them Sikhs, but why can't they consider them to be another faith worshipping Waheguruji with good values, since anyone from any religion can reach God?

I dont think the Sikhs have a problem with that..after all there are Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jians, Buddhists, Taosits..and hundred other faiths..and anybody who claims that sikhs "hate" all these faiths is a lunatic..

BUT the Naamdharees are a different kettle of fish....you see they CLAIM they are just as SIKH as the Khalsa of Guru Nanak Jyot - Gobind Singh Jyot- Guru Granth Ji jyot...

This is the same as a MUSLIM claiming he is muslim but doesnt beleive in Prophet Mohammed as the last prophet. Thus the Ahmediyas etc are NOT Muslim according to Islam because they have their own prophets after mohammed ji. The Traditional Muslims also wouldnt have a problem with the Ahmediyas IF they stopped claiming they are also Muslims.

SIKHS have NO PROBLEM with namdharees IF they STOP claiming they are SIKHS..they are NOT..as one of the Fundamental Basis of SIKHE is to BELIEVE in ALL Gurus from Guru nanak to Guru granth Ji as one JYOT. The Naamdharees have their own set of gurus...

Jarnail Singh Gyani Arshi

Neutral Singh · #3 (**permalink**) 14-Jun-2005, 19:55 PM

Very interesting set of questions. I found the following information about their philosophy.

Namdharis

Doctrines The Namdharis believe in the soteriological efficacy of remembering the divine Name (nam-simaran), and the use of a rosary in this practice. They believe in the unorthodox view of personal Guruship - which did not end with the tenth and traditionally believed to be the last Guru, Gobind Singh. The Tenth Guru is believed to have escaped the assasination attempt on his life and lived in secret to the age of 146 (d.1812); old enough to pass on the guruship to Guru Balak Singh. They therefore believe in the doctrine of an unending Guru lineage; Guru Ram Singh is believed to be the next incarnation of Guru Gobind Singh. They are strict vegetarians who do not drink or smoke. They maintain the Hindu belief that the cow is sacred and should therefore not be killed for human consumption. Though they attach equal importance to the Adi Granth and the Dasam Granth, they do not accept the Adi Granth as the Guru Granth. They believe in certain ritualistic practices like the fire ceremony (havan or hom) which involves the practice of circummambulating the fire during a wedding ceremony (instead of the Adi Granth as in an orthodox wedding). They believe that food not prepared from their own hands should not be eaten. They also believe in the efficacy of mantras/sacred words (that are given to them at initiation), and do not believe in the initiation of Khande di pahul (baptism by a double-edged sword) of the Khalsa, though they emphatically promulgate the Khalsa appearance and their own code of conduct - unlike the Nirankaris (see entry). They do not believe in sacred sites (temples, village spots, shrines etc.) for they believed in the interiorization of faith via the divine Name - which they saw as an antidote to the sinful pleasures of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/4227-namdharis.html

History The Namdharis are also known as Kukas 'criers', for their shrieks (kuks) given in ecstatic meditative trance. The Namdharis were founded by Guru Balak Singh (1797-1862) in north-west Panjab. He was a puritan and stressed the importance of the divine Name for salvation and drew most of his followers from the poorer lower castes, namely the Jats - whom naturally opposed the richer Sikhs and the British. However, in Ludhiana their second Guru, Ram Singh (1816-85), had the greatest impact. He was the first reformer to emphasise the Khalsa Singh identity under colonial rule, but did not exclude the Sahajdharis in his addresses. Believing in the interiority of faith in 1866, the Namdharis set about destroying Sanatan Sikh-Hindu tombs, ancestral shrines, certain villages spots and other sacred sites. The British began to fear revolution and in 1863 ordered Ram Singh not to hold religious assemblies and not to leave his village. However the desecration continued and peaked about 1867 and some Namdharis were imprisoned. Ram Singh himself was imprisoned and eventually sent to Rangoon and then to Southern Burma where he remained imprisoned until his death in 1885. The Namdhari's notorious zeal for the protection of the cow brought them into direct conflict with the British government. Four butchers were killed by zealous Namdharis. As a result eight of them were captured and sentenced to death. Such incidents increased and in 1872 forty-nine Namdharis were killed by the British and sixteen more later. Through such protests and campaigns the Namdharis initiated the fight for the collapse of the British government. However before the end of the 19th century the Namdharis discarded their militancy to return to simple piety. They consider themselves the initiators of India's struggle for freedom since they boycotted British education, law courts, railways and post office services.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=4227

Symbols All Namdharis are at least Keshdharis (those with uncut hair). They wear only white home-spun clothing. Their turbans have a particular style, being tied horizontally across the forehead, called Sidha Pag (straight turban). Because the British, fearing revolution, banned the right to carry arms, Namdharis carried sticks to symbolise the sword of the Khalsa warrior. Many wore a knotted wolloen cord around their necks which served as a rosary.

Adherents In the 1891 census 706 Hindus and 12,319 Sikhs returned themselves as 'Kuka'. (Census of India, 1891, Vol.XX and Vol.XXI, The Punjab and its Feudatories, by E.D. Maclagan, Part II and III, Calcutta, 1892, pp.826-9 and pp.572-3. (See also the note at the end of the Explanatory Introduction).

Headquarters/
Main Centre Originally, under Guru Balak Singh, Namdharis were focused in the north-west of Panjab. However the headquarters shifted to Bhaini Sahib in Ludhiana under the second leader Guru Ram Singh.

Arvind · #4 (**permalink**) 14-Jun-2005, 20:21 PM

For Naamdhaaris, I have total respect for their
1. efforts to maintain raga vidya - to sing kirtan in actual ragas
2. no effort to speak ill about other sikhs although they get termed as Narakdharis(!), which personally I take as an offence to them
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=4227
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=4227
3. role in indian freedom struggles. The Kukas were foremost for many sacrifices during that time.

CaramelChocolate · #5 (**permalink**) 14-Jun-2005, 23:06 PM

So just because they are a minority, have a different interpretation and do not follow orthodox views they cannot be called Sikhs? Come on, they are more Sikh than 90% of the hair cutting idol worshipping Sikhs... The problem with many orthodox Sikhs today is that they do not take Sri Guru Granth Sahib as an actual Guru, they think they can get away from deviating from his teachings, just because the 11th Nanak is not an a human form [here I am talking about non-amritdhari Sikhs]...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=4227
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=4227
However, I am not sure about their practice of rosary, seems a little Hindu to me... Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji specifically talks against the use of rosary...
Namdharis do believe in Gurus from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh ji but then it moves on to another human Guru rather than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, that is the only difference but is still the same JOT...
I am also not sure of their practice of taking amrit everytime before they read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/Dasam Granth...

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #6 (**permalink**) 15-Jun-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arvind

For Naamdhaaris, I have total respect for their
1. efforts to maintain raga vidya - to sing kirtan in actual ragas
2. no effort to speak ill about other sikhs although they get termed as Narakdharis(!), which personally I take as an offence to them
3. role in indian freedom struggles. The Kukas were foremost for many sacrifices during that time.

No veer Ji, the Naamdharees are never called Narakdharees. The NARAKDHAREES are the Followers of the NAKLI NIRANKAREES....Guru gurbachan Singh who was allegedly assasinated during Pre-1984 Bluestar time.
These Nakli Nirankaris, were responsible for teh shooting of the 13 Sikhs on vasakhi day in 1978...which event began the events leading up to 1984..and after..
The Nakli nirankari Guru, was openly INSULTING Sikh Gurus and Sikh History by having..Sat SITARAY ( seven STARS..to challenge the Panj Piyaras), he had woemn in his household named Mata Sundaree, Mata Sahib kaur etc...and many other outrageopus acts which set the Singhs under Fauja Singh ready to die to STOP this sacrilege. Later one Singh assasinated Gurbachan Singh who had fled to Delhi to avoid arrest for shooting dead 13 sikhs who were UNARMED.

These "nakli nirankaris" were thus referred to as Narakdharees by Bhinderwalah..and his singhs.

The ASLEE NIRANKAREES were very saintly PREACHERS, one of whom was Darbara Singh in the Pothar/Rawalpindi areas of Punjab and they were the ones to FIRST hold an ANAND KARAJ CEREMONY with Lavaan da Paath as we do today. This was about 1890's.Thsi was the Predecessor of teh Singh sabha Movement.

From the 1950's the Naklee Nirankaress took over this movement...and took an increasing ANTI SIKH stand on all matters.

Jarnail Singh Gyani Arshi

There is NO DISPUTE whatsoever as to the freedom Struggle fo the namdharee Founder Baba Raam Singh ji and his Kookas as the namdharees were called.

They began the Freedom Struggle and the Britihs had to Blow them in front of Cannons to STAMP out the Movement. Baba Raam Singh ji was Exiled for LIFE to NIcobar Prison where he died. In personal letters Baba ji Raam Singh Ji has clearly stated that HE is NOT GURU but a simple GURU KA SIKH.

There is also no dispute that the namdharees are in the forefront of keeping the valuable Gurmat Raag Vidya alive... MOST SIKHS have dropped this Vidya in favour of Bollywood tunes in Kirtan and commercialised it for kaan rass.

The ONLY point of contention is on the position of GURU GRANTH JI. IF some agreement can be reached on this and on Khande Batte da Amrit....then the namdharees are a valuable section of Sikhs. I fervently hope this agreement can be reached as i have many namdharee friends...but i have to keep them at level of my non-sikh friends, while i would love to treat them as my Gursikh Bhais.

Jarnail Singh gyani Arshi

Arvind · #7 (**permalink**) 15-Jun-2005, 21:03 PM

Dear Gyani ji,

Your post, as usual, contains so much of information. Thanks for that

I mentioned Narakdhari as I witness so many cyber fights by ignorants, where they use this term for Naamdhari, this hurts me so much. Perhaps they confuse a Naamdhaari with Nirankaari!

I happen to attend Naamdhari function, and also witnessed
1. Guru Granth Sahib ji at a higher place than Satguru ji
2. Satguru ji bowing in front of Guru Granth Sahib ji
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=4227
3. Gurmukhs asking people to getting larr-lao with Guru Sahib.

I am not aware of the contention of 'Khande Batte da Amrit', but as this is raised, I am going to get into more detail about this by asking fellow Naamdharis. In the mean time, you please tell us more.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=4227

Thanks, Arvind.

Singhstah · #8 (**permalink**) 16-Jun-2005, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaramelChocolate

So just because they are a minority, have a different interpretation and do not follow orthodox views they cannot be called Sikhs?

No.

They cannot be called sikhs, because they lower the status of Satguroo Granth sahib ji Mahraaj, by saying guroo sahib is a book

naamdhari;s nirankaris their all the same ogvernment funded dushts.

CaramelChocolate · #9 (**permalink**) 17-Jun-2005, 00:03 AM

OK if you want to be ignorant like that Singhstah without supporting your claims like you have done many times on this forum then I ask from you a quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that claims "I AM THE GURU OF THE SIKHS". Or another quote say from Dasam Granth that says Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the GURU.