What is Prayer? Should Sikhs Pray?

passingby · #37 (**permalink**) 19-Apr-2012, 22:55 PM

Ambarsaria veerji,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/38357-what-is-prayer-should-sikhs-pray.html
I pointed out that the concept of Paap and Dharamraaj is present in Gurbani. I did not interpret the concept. If its a metaphor, then be it so.
*

Astroboy · #38 (**permalink**) 19-Apr-2012, 23:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Luckyji,

I have been giving this matter much thought, yesterday I walked the 3 miles to work, and thought of nothing else. It was at this point I realised something, I am always praying. It has never occurred to me to set a time out to pray, or to ready myself for prayer, or a request because I am having a constant conversation with the essence of Creator in my head. However the conversations do not take place as prayers would, they go more along the line of, 'I must do better at this, I must try harder at that', and how to achieve such in line with Bani and Hukam. I don't know if this is a universal thing but right and wrong are very clear in my head. As I walked, I know its wrong to stare at the lady at the bus stop in the mini skirt and the high heels, but as I avert my gaze, I also know its wrong to have an aversion to staring at the same lady, the key is indifference, its just a lady, a human being, old enough to be my sister, what she is wearing is irrelevant, wisdom comes in acknowledging her as a sister, and being neither attracted nor repulsed. All this is happening while I walk, I spot a brand new Range Rover, and a mixture of slight envy and apathy wash over me, I internally debate these feelings, and conclude that I am better off admiring it and being happy for the owner, this is the correct way to feel, and so forth, and my entire day is spent in this manner, feeling emotions, checking those emotions, debating what I feel, what I should feel, what Bani advises me to feel, what Hukam tells me to feel, which feeling is the one that is going to bring me closer to consonance, closer to Creation, which feeling is really me, am I the sex starved lunatic who envies others cars, or am I a brother to everyone, and gracious enough to be happy for others. As I get closer to my shop, I reflect on the dinner I cooked my wife yesterday, unfortunately she was too tired to be intimate when we went to bed, I had a slight feeling that my dinner should have been reciprocated, I also knew feeling like this was wrong, more debating, must try harder to give love unconditionally, not to get jealous of the attention to the 8 animals that live with us, to not act like a small boy not getting attention, I make a mental note to read some relevant bani on the subject, in order that I can gain understanding and follow hukam better,so tell me Luckyji, is this all praying?

My parents in their wisdom sent me to a convent school when I was young, so I understand. Sin by its very nature brings guilt, guilt is bad, I think that is why Sikhism does not recognise sin, sure, we are not all perfect, but better to try and be pure through wisdom and understanding, than beat yourself over the head with a big stick, which is what guilt is.

I look forward to your reply Veer Luckyji

Although this is directed to Veer Lucky Ji, I felt your thoughts as familiar and essential. For example, looking at a lady with a mini skirt is not really wrong because God created the male species to be more optical and that's the reason for the mini skirt in the first place.
On the other hand, the Guru's bani tells us to pay attention on our own wives instead of other women because obviously undesirable consequences will follow. Page 1290 Line 2 mentions it.

Another point you mentioned is whether we are praying all the time. In my opinion , to a certain extent, the answer is YES. We are putting our attention on negative thoughts 24/7 and go to places of worship for just a few hours and expect God to grant us positive things. In Gurbani the relevant tuk could be Page 474 Line 11.

Luckysingh · #39 (**permalink**) 20-Apr-2012, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Luckyji,

I have been giving this matter much thought, yesterday I walked the 3 miles to work, and thought of nothing else. It was at this point I realised something, I am always praying. It has never occurred to me to set a time out to pray, or to ready myself for prayer, or a request because I am having a constant conversation with the essence of Creator in my head. However the conversations do not take place as prayers would, they go more along the line of, 'I must do better at this, I must try harder at that', and how to achieve such in line with Bani and Hukam. I don't know if this is a universal thing but right and wrong are very clear in my head. As I walked, I know its wrong to stare at the lady at the bus stop in the mini skirt and the high heels, but as I avert my gaze, I also know its wrong to have an aversion to staring at the same lady, the key is indifference, its just a lady, a human being, old enough to be my sister, what she is wearing is irrelevant, wisdom comes in acknowledging her as a sister, and being neither attracted nor repulsed. All this is happening while I walk, I spot a brand new Range Rover, and a mixture of slight envy and apathy wash over me, I internally debate these feelings, and conclude that I am better off admiring it and being happy for the owner, this is the correct way to feel, and so forth, and my entire day is spent in this manner, feeling emotions, checking those emotions, debating what I feel, what I should feel, what Bani advises me to feel, what Hukam tells me to feel, which feeling is the one that is going to bring me closer to consonance, closer to Creation, which feeling is really me, am I the sex starved lunatic who envies others cars, or am I a brother to everyone, and gracious enough to be happy for others. As I get closer to my shop, I reflect on the dinner I cooked my wife yesterday, unfortunately she was too tired to be intimate when we went to bed, I had a slight feeling that my dinner should have been reciprocated, I also knew feeling like this was wrong, more debating, must try harder to give love unconditionally, not to get jealous of the attention to the 8 animals that live with us, to not act like a small boy not getting attention, I make a mental note to read some relevant bani on the subject, in order that I can gain understanding and follow hukam better,so tell me Luckyji, is this all praying?

My parents in their wisdom sent me to a convent school when I was young, so I understand. Sin by its very nature brings guilt, guilt is bad, I think that is why Sikhism does not recognise sin, sure, we are not all perfect, but better to try and be pure through wisdom and understanding, than beat yourself over the head with a big stick, which is what guilt is.

I look forward to your reply Veer Luckyji

Harryji, the above actions quoted do constitute as a form of praying. When I say 'form', I will explain more clearly further down. It actually reminds me of something I learnt back in school** -'We should pray all the time'-**
Although this was christian taught and something of value it makes us realise how we can all achieve this.
Many of us are too absorbed in our daily work lives that we don't have the chance to reflect on ourselves. Be it too busy trying to please employer, or too busy in business aspect whatever, work life and employment can be too demanding for some that they are not always able to do this. You are very lucky that you find it possible in this sense.
To be able to pray all the time no matter what else you are doing by asking the lord for wisdom and inspiration for your actions is only achievable by some and something we should all try more often.

It's important to understand the difference between prayer and worship.
Although these two are often termed together, doesn't mean they are the same act. Act of worship is not always an act of prayer.

Prayer is like I explained previously, talking to God or having a quiet conversation, requesting, asking for an action.....

Worship can be thanking the lord for an action, expression of gratitude, praising, singing, Kirtan, hymns and katha are all acts of worship.

However, Worship in terms of sadh sangat can be regarded as a prayer, like all standing and doing the ardaas. This act of joint congregation is one example when worship and prayer closely overlap. Quite recently we noticed many Gurdwaras having akhand paths for Balwant Rajoana, this is in essence a prayer for him by all the congregation, again it overlaps with acts of worship. I know some people do like to associate worship, when they reference a group of people contributing to prayer wether it be seva or kirtan. Therefore, some may find it easier to asscoiate worship with a holy gathering or sadh sangat and Not as a 'pooja' as per hindu terms.

Getting to this we can further divide prayer into 3 subtypes
.
1st, The personal prayer that is done by one self and God, no interventions.This is often done quietly whenever or wherever one feels it appropriate.

2nd, We could have praying the naam or jap. Everyone has personal differences in their concepts for Naam and Jap, I won't go into it too much here as I've mentioned it in another post. Here I'm referring to any prayer that relates the word of the shabad or bani to your prayer. Wether it be reading Japji, sukhmani, a single shabad being repeated ...etc... It's reading, reciting the word from the bani and reflecting it on yourself.
Most sikhs are very content with this sort of prayer and ardaas. Arising at amritvela and doing nitnem as per rehat is this form of prayer that goes well with spirituality.

3rd, Is similar to what you described above. Living with the prayer or having the rememberance and word of God with you throughout your living day.. Carrying out daily actions by asking for wisdom and inspiration from Guru.This also includes acts of seva or selfless service. Having the naam or word with you 'aaght pairr'

Now the above is not just my opinion, it's my explanation for myself in all honesty.
I don't expect any one to adapt or follow the prayer and it's subtypes theory. It is just a personal theory like many others I may have.
However, I do feel it important that we understand that prayer and worship are different, but in certain situations they may and can overlap very closely as explained above.

Harryji, I hope this helps answer your question about wether your actions constitute to prayer or not. In my view, yes, but I gave subtypes for clarity. I may have learnt these in the past and adpated them into lines of sikhi.

Now, the other point you mentioned was
Sin by its very nature brings guilt, guilt is bad, I think that is why Sikhism does not recognise sin, sure, we are not all perfect, but better to try and be pure through wisdom and understanding, than beat yourself over the head with a big stick, which is what guilt is.

I understand your point here with reference to guilt. As sikhs we must try to overcome all negativities of our own mind or 'mann'
This includes feelings of guilt, fear and regret. As manmukhs we have to try and eradicate these, we only experience them because we are manmukh.

I explained what the term 'sin' meant to me in relation to 'paap' done intentionally and unintentionally.
Giving in to the power of any of the 5 thieves also comes across as acts of sin to me. Our minds do cause feelings of guilt to actions we clearly know are wrong or done with intention.

The important point to note here is, that I am also referring to UNintentional actions, ie. any paap that is done without realising, or mistakes and hurting we may cause other folk (by ego usually) without even realising how they feel or how hurt they may be.
These actions WILL NOT cause us any guilt, as we don't realise. It is for these that we ask 'Bhull Chuk Maarf' or forgiveness.
In all honesty, I don't know how often I may even be doing this in all my interactions with different people throughout any given day.

I'm sure you must be able to recall a situation where someone, wether family or friend got offended as they misinterpreted a comment you may have made. In your own view, you made an innocent remark or comment, but they were offended and hurt by such action.- I'm sure we have all experienced this at one time or the other.
So, what do we do when this happens or occurs??
Now, some will deal with it ignorantly as they couldn't care less. To them it will seem that it's the others fault for perceiving it in a crooked way. This attitude brings on NO GUILT or shame.
On the other hand, some will be shocked and sorry that they have caused such pain to others, even though it was totally unintended. This attitude would bring on GUILT and embarassment, although very undeserved in some opinions.

Do you see what I'm getting at here, -Sin or paap does not always mean guilt, and guilt does not always mean such a sin.
So, to me personally, -I feel no shame, harm or guilt the majority of the times that I may mention forgiveness in my own personal prayer.

I'm not encouraging this by any means, but if it helps with one's conscious, then there is no wrong or harm.
If it doesn't affect your conscious, then of course you have no need, it is different and personal to each and every one of us.

Harryji, I hope this clarifies some discrepancies you may feel in my previous comments.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh

findingmyway · #40 (**permalink**) 21-Apr-2012, 05:54 AM

Moderation note. This is an interesting thread and it is good to see many points of view. I have not had the chance to read all yet but I would like to remind all contributors of the TOS.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357
1. All posts must be in English so all members can understand and enjoy them. There have been 1 or 2 members not following this so future posts not in English will be deleted without notice.

2. All shabads quoted must be in Panjabi and English with ang numbers for reference and your own understanding.

Thank you.

Archived_member15 · #41 (**permalink**) 26-Apr-2012, 18:25 PM

For me, this is prayer:

"...Prayer is nothing but the inhaling and exhaling of the one breath of the universe. I, the highest and fiery power, have kindled every spark of life...I, the fiery life of divine essence, blaze in the beauty of the fields, am aflame beyond the beauty of the meadows, I gleam in the waters, and I burn in the sun, moon, and stars. With every breeze, as with invisible life that contains everything, I awaken everything to life. The air lives by turning green and being in bloom. The waters flow as if they were alive.... I am also Reason, having the wind of the sounding Word by which all things were created, and I breathe in them all, so that none may die, because I am Life...And thus I remain hidden in every kind of reality as a fiery power. Everything burns because of me in the way our breath constantly moves us, like the wind-tossed flame in a fire. As the Creator loves his creation so creation loves the Creator. Creation, of course, was fashioned to be adorned, to be showered, to be gifted with the love of the Creator. The entire world has been embraced by this kiss...All living creatures are, so to speak, sparks from the radiation of God's brilliance, and these sparks emerge from God like the rays of the sun . . . But if God did not give off those sparks, how would the divine glory become fully visible?...For there is no creature without some kind of radiance - whether it be greenness, seeds, buds, or another kind of beauty. Every human soul endowed with reason exists as a soul that emerges from the true God . . . This same God is that living fire by which souls live and breathe..."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357

- Saint Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), Catholic mystic and Doctor of the Church

Catholic mystics often count the breath when praying, especially in the East where the practice of Hesyschasm is practised ie "inhale and say in mind - "Jesus Christ Son of God" then exhale and say "have mercy on me"

To explain this Hildegard told a parable, a little moral story:

"...Listen: there was once a king sitting on his throne. Around him stood great and wonderfully beautiful columns ornamented with ivory, bearing the banners of the king with great honor. Then it pleased the king to raise a small feather from the ground, and he commanded it to fly. The feather flew, not because of anything in itself but because the air bore it along. Thus am I, a feather on the breath of God..."

- Saint Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), Catholic mystic and Doctor of the Church

The Breath of God lives and breathes in all of us, and in all living beings, throughout all creation. To realize this, and to move with it, is prayer - a grasping of our place in the All and our unity with everything else in God's creation, in which we are all "feathers on the breath of God".

Archived_member15 · #42 (**permalink**) 26-Apr-2012, 19:05 PM

Another definition of prayer that I like:

"...The most powerful prayer, one wellnigh omnipotent, and the worthiest work of all is the outcome of a quiet mind. The quieter it is the more powerful, the worthier, the deeper, the more telling and more perfect the prayer is. To the quiet mind all things are possible. What is a quiet mind? A quiet mind is one which nothing weighs on, nothing worries, which, free from ties and from all self-seeking, is wholly merged into the will of God and dead to its own...If the only prayer you say in your entire life is "Thank You," that would suffice. Apprehend God in all things, for God is in all things. Every single creature is full of God and is a book about God. Every creature is a word of God. If I spent enough time with the tiniest creature-- even a caterpillar-- I would never have to prepare a sermon. So full of God is every creature. We ought to understand God equally in all things, for God is equally in all things. All beings love one another. All creatures are interdependent...God wants nothing of you but the gift of a peaceful heart..."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357

- Meister Eckhart (1260-1329), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest

And also:

"...A man may go into the field and say his prayer and be aware of God, or, he may be in Church and be aware of God; but, if he is more aware of Him because he is in a quiet place, that is his own deficiency and not due to God, Who is alike present in all things and places, and is willing to give Himself everywhere so far as lies in Him. He knows God rightly who knows Him everywhere..."

- Meister Eckhart (1260-1329), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest

One does not have to be in a Church or Temple to find God in prayer - he is Everywhere!

harry haller · #43 (**permalink**) 26-Apr-2012, 20:01 PM

Quote:

"...Prayer is nothing but the inhaling and exhaling of the one breath of the universe. I, the highest and fiery power, have kindled every spark of life...I, the fiery life of divine essence, blaze in the beauty of the fields, am aflame beyond the beauty of the meadows, I gleam in the waters, and I burn in the sun, moon, and stars. With every breeze, as with invisible life that contains everything, I awaken everything to life. The air lives by turning green and being in bloom. The waters flow as if they were alive.... I am also Reason, having the wind of the sounding Word by which all things were created, and I breathe in them all, so that none may die, because I am Life.

wahmundawahkaurmundahug

jonj · #44 (**permalink**) 27-Apr-2012, 02:45 AM

some people find relief in praying as they feel like they can confide anything to God that might be bothering them that they cannot voice out to someone else. They feel connected to a higher begin that they strongly believe communication is established. Some people may not be able to voice out their fears as they might not be appropriate to talk about in the moment especially if what they fear is the death of someone they love as they want to seem strong to that person who might be fearing death as well that is why they opt to establish communication to a "higher being" whom the feel some relief.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #45 (**permalink**) 27-Apr-2012, 04:47 AM

Hum AADMI haan EK Dammi......we are of ONE BREATH.........says GURU NANAK....
Quote: Prayer is nothing but the inhaling and exhaling of the one breath of the universe......