As a Sikh do you ever ask when hurting or feeling low, God/Creator, why me?

Ambarsaria · #46 (**permalink**) 23-Apr-2012, 23:38 PM

Vouthon ji thanks for detailed well laid out post one above last.
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Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249

I have a question and not to be flippant. Abortion I see and agree and Sikhism from what I know sees and believes the same. mundahug

Question of contraceptives! Why such get suckered in and under what guidance? Does it relate to the logic as "sex for procreation" only or something like that? Why sex not be part of loving one another just as kissing, hugging, embracing, sleeping together in mutual warmth and passionate embrace?

Thank you.
*

Archived_member15 · #47 (**permalink**) 23-Apr-2012, 23:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambarsaria

Vouthon ji thanks for detailed well laid out post one above last.

I have a question and not to be flippant. Abortion I see and agree and Sikhism from what I know sees and believes the same. mundahug

Question of contraceptives! Why such get suckered in and under what guidance? Does it relate to the logic as "sex for procreation" only or something like that? Why sex not be part of loving one another just as kissing, hugging, embracing, sleeping together in mutual warmth and passionate embrace?

Thank you.

My dear brother Ambarsaria

An excellent question!

There is no mention in Catholic Sacred Tradition of contraception. The current Church hierarchy admits this, although not happily, and so the majority of Catholics use contraception.

It all started in the 1930s when the Church of England approved artificial contraception. The Pope, Pius XI, was extremely worried that this would give young people a free license to have sex as much as they liked with multiple partners and so issued an encyclical explaining that while sex was not just for procreation, but also for the mutual unity and pleasure of spouses in a committed relationship, it should also be open to life and let nature run its course. This text is called CastīConnūbiī (Latin: "of chaste wedlock") and was a papal encyclical promulgated by Pope Pius XI on December 31, 1930 in response to the Lambeth Conference of the Anglican church. It stressed the sanctity of marriage, prohibited Catholics from using any form of artificial birth control, and reaffirmed the prohibition on abortion (which as you know is part of the Tradition and can't be changed). The encyclical encouraged Catholics to use Natural Family Planning ie have sex when the woman is in her infertile period so as to avoid childbirth. The Pope thought that observing natural periods and cycles like this would not only be legitimate but help the couple grow.

Since then Catholics have been most displeased with the Church hierarchy for insisting on a teaching which has no basis in the Tradition, and I am one of those people.

There are calls now to get rid of this teaching and I expect the next Pope will do so.

However it will be with great displeasure on the part of the Church.

In our bibles there is a book in the OT called the "Song of Songs" which is a poem about the romance between a young unmarried woman and man - a noblewoman and a shepherd boy - who slip off in the middle of the night without their parents knowing to kiss and be with each other and eventually after making commitments in secret to one another make love. In this book of the Bible the young couple aren't having sex to procreate should we say

Here's an excerpt:

"Kiss me, make me drunk with your kisses!
Your sweet lovemaking
is better than wine

...

Take me by the hand, let us run together!

My lover, my king, has brought me into his chambers.
We will laugh, you and I, and count each kiss,
better than wine.

Every one of them [the other maidens] wants you.

...My king lay down beside me
and my fragrance
wakened the night
All night My beloved is to me a bag of myrrh
that lies between my breasts.
My beloved is to me a cluster of
henna blossoms in the vineyards of En-ged

...

And my beloved among the young men
is a branching apricot tree in the wood.
In that shade I have often lingered,
tasting the fruit [Oral sex ]

...

Awake, O north wind, and come, O south wind!
Blow upon my garden that its fragrance may be wafted abroad.
Let my beloved come to his garden, and eat its choicest fruits
[Oral Sex]

...

How beautiful you are and how pleasing,

O love, with your delights!

Your stature is like that of the palm,

and your breasts like clusters of fruit.

I said, “I will climb the palm tree;

I will take hold of its fruit.”

And oh, may your breasts be like clusters
of grapes on a vine, the scent
of your breath like apricots,
your mouth good wine-

That pleases my lover, rousing him
even from sleep."

...I imagine that would rouse me from sleep as well...

Ambarsaria · #48 (**permalink**) 24-Apr-2012, 00:11 AM

Wonderful poem (wow

).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249

Thanks for the complete answer. I hope the repeal comes through for the good of all Catholics. I note that "edicts given to people as help and guidance that only force them to break or dis-respectfully obey are not very spiritual and take away from the richness and beauty of a religion like Catholicism".

I understand fully.

Regards.

harry haller · #49 (**permalink**) 24-Apr-2012, 00:36 AM

Vouthonji

I have learned much today, thank you

It is always a pleasure debating with a gentlemen
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249

kind regards

Harry

Archived_member15 · #50 (**permalink**) 24-Apr-2012, 00:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambarsaria

Wonderful poem (wow

).

Thanks for the complete answer. I hope the repeal comes through for the good of all Catholics. I note that "edicts given to people as help and guidance that only force them to break or dis-respectfully obey are not very spiritual and take away from the richness and beauty of a religion like Catholicism".

I understand fully.

Regards.

Thank you brother Ambarsaria!

Very well put, I agree 100% and I love those smilies too!

I also hope that this teaching is reppealed. Its been a burden from the beginning and an unnecessary one at that.

But things like this have happened throughout Catholic history. Its nothing new. The church hierarchy is the trustee if you like of the Tradition and we believe that it will never teach anything expressly against the Tradition, however its fallible human members have often broke the Tradition and its taken ordinary Catholics to stand up and re-claim it for ourselves.

The Catholic Church has a long history of what we call faithful dissenters - Catholics who in their lifetimes are often condemned but soon after or later are recognised by the hierarchy as saints, the most splendid and brilliant Catholics of their time.

Differing with church authority is a noble tradition and today countless "good" Catholics routinely defy the teaching on artificial contraception. The dissenting tradition includes the likes of Galileo, Blessed John Henry Newman, Saint Catherine of Siena, Saint Hildegard of Bingen, Meister Eckhart, Servant of God Matteo Ricci, and John Courtney Murray.

Do you know of Saint Francis of Assisi, the thirteenth century nature-loving Catholic friar? Well, he opposed the then Pope too his face for corruption. The pope prohibited his order at first, the Franciscans, but then relented and admitted that he'd got it wrong.

Saint Joan of Arc was burnt on a stake in the 1400s for heresy at the age of just 19, by French Bishops in league with her English enemies. 20 years later she was absolved by the Pope himself who admitted that the Church hierarchy in France had made a terrible mistake, had in fact put nationality and factionalism above truth and her murderers were then condemned. She was later declared a Saint.

Saint John of the Cross was imprisoned in the sixteenth century by members of his own order, and deprived of food and kept in chains. He was later declared not only a Saint but also a Doctor of the Church in recognition of the wonderful, exuberant, inspired poetry he wrote to his Beloved - God - while in prison.

Mary MacKillop, an Australian nun who was excommunicated in 1871 for challenging a bishop's efforts to govern her religious community. More than a century later, Pope John Paul II declared her "blessed" and in 2010 she was declared a "Saint".

In twelfth century Germany, the Benedictine abbess Saint Hildegard of Bingen, healer, scientist, composer and author of 10 books, awakened popes and abbots alike, firing off letters like this one to Pope Anastasius IV: “O man, you who sit on the papal throne, you despise God when you don’t hurl from yourself the evil but even worse, embrace it and kiss it by silently tolerating corrupt men. . .And you, O Rome, are like one in the throes of death. You will be so shaken that the strength of your feet, the feet on which you now stand, will disappear. For you don’t love the King’s daughter, justice.”

She is now Saint Hildegard and a Doctor of the Church

Saint Symeon (949–1022 AD) spoke from personal experience of the vision of God. One of his principal teachings was that humans could and should experience theoria (literally "contemplation", or direct experience of God). Symeon endured severe opposition from church authorities, particularly from the chief theologian of the emperor's court, Archbishop Stephen, who at one time was the Metropolitan of Nicomedia. Stephen was a former politician and diplomat with a reputation for a thorough theoretical understanding of theology, but one which was removed from actual experience of the spiritual life. Symeon, in contrast, held the view that one must have actual experience of the Holy Spirit in order to speak about God, at the same time recognizing the authority of scripture and of the earlier church fathers.

In one of his hymns, Saint Symeon had Christ speaking the following rebuke to the bishops:

"They (the bishops) unworthily handle My Body
and seek avidly to dominate the masses...
They are seen to appear as brilliant and pure,
but their souls are worse than mud and dirt,
worse even than any kind of deadly poison,
these evil and perverse men!" (Hymn 58)

He became - SAINT SYMEON!

Saint Thomas Aquinas, who followed a century after Hildegard, wrote commentaries on 10 works by the greatest scientist of his day, Aristotle, even though the pope had forbidden Christians to study Aristotle. So controversial was Aquinas in his day that the king of France had to call out his troops to surround the convent where Aquinas lived to protect him from Christians aroused by fundamentalist clergy. For Aquinas, “revelation comes in two books—the Bible and Nature” and “a mistake about nature results in a mistake about God.”

Aquinas insisted that one is always responsible to one’s conscience, more than to any other authority. (Indeed, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. cites Aquinas on this point in his famous Letter from Birmingham Jail.) Aquinas was condemned by church authorities three times after he died but eventually was declared a saint and Doctor of the Church; and in the 19th century Catholics were not allowed to study any theologians apart from Thomas Aquinas' works in seminary!

Another Dominican, Meister Eckhart, is probably the greatest mystic the West has produced. His writings abound with depth, humor, paradox and challenges to establishment Christianity. For example, he declares, “I pray God to rid me of God.” He emphasizes what contemporary Biblical scholars are saying, that Christ is found not just in Jesus but in all of us. Eckhart says, “What good is it to me if Mary gave birth to the son of God 1,400 years ago and I do not do so in my time and my person and my culture?” Eckhart was never condemned or declared a heretic but the Church gave him a very hard time. He was tried for heresy but beat the hierarchy with the stunning statement that left them gob-smacked: "I may err like all men but I am not a heretic, for the first has to do with the mind and the second with the will". It was reading Eckhart that converted Fr Thomas Merton from atheism in the 1930’s to Catholicism and eventually into becoming a prophetic mystic of the 60‘s. Pope John Paul II was a devotee of Eckhart!

Teilhard de Chardin was a French Jesuit mystic and scientist who was banished from his home country to China early in the 20th century by church authorities, but who found plenty of scientific and mystical work to delve into in his exile. He spent his life researching the deeper meanings of science and spirituality and, being forbidden to publish most of his works in his life time, he left his books in the hands of a lay woman who got them published after he died. He is now considered to be one of the greatest Catholic mystics of the 20th century and is going to a candidate for canonisation pretty soon.

These are all noble dissenters, and it was explained well by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, a somewhat eccentric German Catholic polymath, in 1952:

"...The Catholic has the duty of forming, educating and training his conscience...Yet the Catholic who has lost his faith and who honestly accepts the teachings of another religious body commits a mortal sin if he does not publically embrace whatever religion he believes in. Father O'Karr very wisely points out that George Bernard Shaw was very much mistaken when he claimed Saint Joan of Arc for Protestantism. It was precisely her defiance of ecclesiastical authority and her strict adherence to her conscience which made her canonization (elevation to sainthood) possible within Catholicism...According to Catholic theology it is, therefore, quite likely that Jan Hus' soul went straight to heaven after his death, provided he sincerely believed in his own views, however erroneous [he rebelled against Catholic dogma and was a precursor to Protestantism]..."

I am reminded of words spoken by the younger Pope Benedict XVI, when he was still Fr Joseph Ratzinger and wrote a commentary on the Second Vatican Council in which he said:

“Not everything that exists in the Church must for that reason be also a legitimate tradition…. There is a distorting tradition as well as a legitimate tradition, ….[and] …consequently tradition must not be considered only affirmatively but also critically.”

I would suggest that contraception is clearly part of this distorting tradition.

So on the issue of dissenting from the teaching on contraception, Catholic history is encouraging - the dissenters of today are often the saints of tommorrow in Catholicism

ravneet_sb · #51 (**permalink**) 29-Apr-2012, 00:42 AM

Sat Sri Akaal,

When we say of previous Karma's.
It's not karam of one's own span of life,
but life that has crossed ages, life of parents,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249
grand parent's ........ and so on.

And the wonder word

Re Produce means repeat production.

How creator creates re production

Genetic records repetition and reproduction

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

harry haller · #52 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 21:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravneet_sb

Sat Sri Akaal,

When we say of previous Karma's.
It's not karam of one's own span of life,
but life that has crossed ages, life of parents,
grand parent's ........ and so on.

And the wonder word

Re Produce means repeat production.

How creator creates re production

Genetic records repetition and reproduction

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Ravneet_sbji

I concede your translation to a point, but clarification is needed. Are you talking of the actions of our ancestors, or are you talking about facets of personality?

thanks

ravneet_sb · #53 (**permalink**) 04-May-2012, 11:48 AM

Sat Sri Akaal,
Harry Ji,

What is experienced through children, that most of there action are reflections of parental or ancestral repeat. And the fact is just correlated with re production.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249

Secondly religion often says all human are from the same source,

from genesis of plants to animals to humans,

mutations have resulted in human form,

from than onward new form of life as "human" is on earth,
and further vocal mind has developed in the form,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249
every human is having all the record since genesis,
only one loses the power to retrieve it.

With blessing of nature, one can realise.

There is no death in reality.

As the trinity (sound, light and matter) was always there, will always be there,

Forms of existence of matter only changes.

Death is only perception of humans.

True Nature Prevails and commands everywhere

Every matter is live and dead,

as trinity prevails in all forms, animated or non animated.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki FAteh

BhagatSingh · #54 (**permalink**) 04-May-2012, 11:51 AM

Harry ji,
Evolution