As a Sikh do you ever ask when hurting or feeling low, God/Creator, why me?

Archived_member15 · #37 (**permalink**) 22-Apr-2012, 04:35 AM

Thanks for your reply brother Ambarsaria!

I'll get back to you tommorrow! An excellent post! A lot to ponder

I leave you with this, from one of my favourite Catholic mystical poets Gerard Manley Hopkins, S.J. (28 July 1844 – 8 June 1889) who was an English poet, Roman Catholic convert, and Jesuit priest. Its two poems of his - the first called, "God's Grandeur - The World is Charged with the Grandeur of God" and the second, "Pied Beauty".

Gerard Manley Hopkins - God's Grandeur - YouTube" target="_blank">Gerard Manley Hopkins - God's Grandeur - YouTube

Gerard Manley Hopkins - Pied Beauty - YouTube" target="_blank">Gerard Manley Hopkins - Pied Beauty - YouTube

7. God’s Grandeur


THE WORLD is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;	5
And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man’s smudge and shares man’s smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.

And for all this, nature is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;	10
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs—
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings

13. Pied Beauty


GLORY be to God for dappled things—
For skies of couple-colour as a brinded cow;
For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim;
Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls; finches’ wings;
Landscape plotted and pieced—fold, fallow, and plough;	5
And áll trádes, their gear and tackle and trim.

All things counter, original, spare, strange;
Whatever is fickle, freckled (who knows how?)
With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim;
He fathers-forth whose beauty is past change:	10
Praise him.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/38249-sikh-do-you-ever-ask-when.html
If anyone whats to read more about Him and his poetry then you can check out this book by Skylight publications:

Amazon.com: Hopkins: The Mystic Poets (Mystic Poets Series) eBook: Gerard Manley Hopkins, Thomas Ryan: Kindle Store

harry haller · #38 (**permalink**) 23-Apr-2012, 13:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vouthon

Dearest Harry

"...Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God...Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them...There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love..."

- 1 John 4:18 (Holy Bible)

Is this really a fair assesment of the Christian conception of God? It is not the conception of God espoused by Jesus or the Church Fathers or Saints of the Catholic Churches. It is not the God I believe in or worship.

Catholicism teaches us that God is everywhere; that he is Unknowable in essence; that He is Love itself in the plenitude of his nature without any trace or shred of hatred; that he loves all, whether humans consider them good or bad; that he sustains all and that he is ultimately nothingness.

I believe that the Creator is unknowable and inexpressible in his essence. He is pure spirit. No one has ever seen God. None can ever know him as he is in Himself. We will never and can never fully understand God. In this sense God is impersonal, transcendent, above and beyond all conceptions of human thought or imagination. In the very truest sense, God does not really "exist" in the way we do. For from Him came all things in existence, and so he is not Himself a "thing", not a created reality, rather he is "nothing" - that is "no-thing". In this sense there is a distiction between Creator and creature.

And yet in a different way, God is also - without being paradoxical - knowable. He is closer to us than our own soul. He is our very being, the ground of our being, the First Cause from which springs all created reality. He is known to us through the imprint of his being which lives and moves and breathes in and through all things. He is known to us through ourselves - for our bodies are the Temples within which his Holy Spirit dwells. We are made in his Image, and so he is known to us through other human beings. God is Love and so all who love are born of God and know God. In every perfect act of human love, we see God. He enlightens all men who are in the world, who ever have been in the world and who will ever be.

In this sense God is not separate from ourselves, and there is no distinction between Him and us. This is what Meister Eckhart understood when he exclaimed: "The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love. Your human nature and that of the divine Word are no different.” (Meister Eckhart)

This is from the Baltimore Catechism published in the 1870s and 1880s, that was taught to all Catholic school children throughout the United States and internationally and was the an authoritative compilation of Catholic doctrine:

"... 164. What do we mean when we say God is "infinitely perfect"?

A. When we say God is "infinitely perfect" we mean there is no limit or bounds to His perfection; for He possesses all good qualities in the highest possible degree and He alone is "infinitely perfect."

Q. 165. Had God a beginning?

A. God had no beginning; He always was and He always will be.

Q. 166. Where is God?

A. God is everywhere.

Q. 167. How is God everywhere?

A. God is everywhere whole and entire as He is in any one place. This is true and we must believe it, though we cannot understand it.

Q. 168. If God is everywhere, why do we not see Him?

A. We do not see God, because He is a pure spirit and cannot be seen with bodily eyes.

Q. 169. Why do we call God a "pure spirit'?

A. We call God a pure spirit because He has no body. Our soul is a spirit, but not a "pure" spirit, because it was created for union with our body.

Q. 170. Why can we not see God with the eyes of our body?

A. We cannot see God with the eyes of our body because they are created to see only material things, and God is not material but spiritual..."

- The Baltimore Catechism (1885), (then) authoritative compilation of Catholic teachings

Catholicism has a rich spiritual tradition with a sacramental vision of reality that sees God's presence in everything, everwhere and in everyone.

To quote a doctor of the Church:

"...God said unto me: I gleam in the waters, and I burn in the sun, moon and stars. With every breeze I awaken everything to life...Oh fire of the Holy Spirit, life of the life of every creature, holy are you in giving life to forms ...Oh boldest path, penetrating into all places, in the heights, on earth, and in every abyss, you bring and bind together. From you clouds flow, air flies, Rocks have their humours, Rivers spring forth from the waters And earth wears her green vigour... Human beings cannot live without the rest of nature, they must care for all natural things...Then creation recognized its Creator in its own forms and appearances. For in the beginning, when God said, "Let it be!" and it came to pass, the means and the Matrix of creation was Love, because all creation was formed through Her as in the twinkling of an eye...Do not mock anything God has created. All creation is simple, plain and good. And God is present throughout his creation. Why do you ever consider things beneath your notice? God's justice is to be found in every detail of what he has made...No creature has meaning without the Word of God. God's Word is in all creation, visible and invisible. The Word is living, being, spirit, all verdant greening, all creativity. This Word flashes out in every creature. This is how the spirit is in the flesh—the Word is indivisible from God..."

- Saint Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), philosopher, mystic, visionary, artist, poet, composer, theologian and Doctor of the Catholic Church

"...The fullness of joy is to behold God in everything..."

- Blessed Julian of Norwich (1342 –1416), Catholic mystic

"...The day of my spiritual awakening was the day I saw and knew I saw all things in God and God in all things..."

- Saint Mechthild of Madgeburg (c. 1207 – c. 1282/1294)

Dearest brother Harry, do you find these Catholic teachings objectionable? Do you think that we do not worship the same God as Sikhs?

Certainly I believe that Catholics and Sikhs worship one and the same God; as do Muslims, Hindus etc.

We might have varying understandings of Him, but there are common, universal expressions as well and I find nothing in the Catholic conception of God that is not in tune with Sikhism apart from the obvious exceptions of the Incarnation of God in Christ and the Trinity.

Vouthonji

I have long admired your writings, you write extremely well, I even quote from some of your posts to my Christian Customers.

Firstly, let us take the concept of love, your quote 4:18 sums up beautifully the concept of love, however, I have to admit to being extremely wary of people that are flowing with love, my life experience has taught me that those that shower love, invariably have an equal affliction for showering anger, for God to also possess this facet of personality, I find extremely hard to accept. This duality surely can be possessed by human and animal kind, but by God?

I realised you are quoting from the ESV Bible, so to be consistent, I have used the same version.

Nahum 1:2-8
English Standard Version (ESV)
God's Wrath Against Nineveh

The Lord is a jealous and avenging God;the Lord is avenging and wrathful;
the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers;
Bashan and Carmel wither; the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him;the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it. Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.The Lord is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble;
he knows those who take refuge in him. But with an overflowing flood
he will make a complete end of the adversaries, and will pursue his enemies into darkness.

At the end of the day, one can quote from stories, publishings, rumours, hearsay, etc etc etc, but in the same way that as a Sikh, I have to give the final authority to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, surely as a Catholic, you must accept the above without dispute.

I personally do not think you are Catholic per se, I think you are heretic Catholic, I think, like me, you do not accept the emperors new clothes.

If we are talking about you, I find you extremely enlightened for your age, and your posts are extremely thought provoking and agreeable, however, I find the description of GOD as stated above to be based on fear and intimidation, rather than love and inclusion.

peacesignkaur

harry haller · #39 (**permalink**) 23-Apr-2012, 13:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckysingh

I'm sorry, I'm not sure you really mean this because I find it difficult to agree.
I've always assumed all these references are for the same One God, wether abrahamic or not.
This view is more familiar with the extreme islamic view that some have today.
I probably wouldn't have had any faith today if it were not for the teachings of Jesus that I learnt when younger. I simply cannot deny any teachings of the bible even though it is not my chosen faith.
Let's not forget that it's similar views to this, that end up starting wars and world wars.

Sikhs have never started a war, that is not the style of Sikhism, however, Sikhism stands as a different animal altogether from the herd. And yes, Luckyji, I really do mean it, otherwise I would not write it!

Again, I am aware it is 'right on' and 'modern' to be all inclusive and see the good in everything, but each religion offers a completely different mindset to the next, this is possibly why those that follow all religions invariably end up going round in circles.

Let us sum up the point of the main ones together with the conclusion.

Christianity -All have sinned and are thereby separated from God. Salvation is through faith in Christ and, for some, sacraments and good works. Conclusion-Eternal heaven or hell (or temporary purgatory)

Hinduism-Humans are in bondage to ignorance and illusion, but are able to escape. Purpose is to gain release from rebirth, or at least a better rebirth.Conclusion-Reincarnation until gain enlightenment.

Islam-Humans must submit (islam) to the will of God to gain Paradise after death.Conclusion-Paradise or Hell.

And finally, Sikhism as I see it, given my current understanding

There is no sin, and no separation from God. Salvation is through adherence mentally and physically to Hukam, the order of the world, this salvation is able to be realised on a daily basis and without judgement, rituals, pleasing God. Conclusion- Death, but you live on through your actions and those you have touched.

So which you worship? the God that installs fear in you, the God that gives you a second chance? the God that bribes you? or the God that pretty much leaves you alone to live your life as per an advised existence with no reward other than doing the right thing, the truthful thing. I guess each has its merits, and I have no ruck with anyone lauding any path and following it, but how does chopping and changing from each path work?, or believing in all paths, if I were to accept each description of God, then what happens when I die? How do I converse with God, as a friend?, as a lover?, as an angry father? as a strict teacher? Do I worry about pleasing God? Do I worry about letting God down? Am I fearful of angering God?

As a Sikh, God is my best friend, my lover, its a cosmic thing, being in the order of the universe, stepping on footprints that are already there to guide me, and if I do not, then I suffer the consequences, not from wrath, or anger, but just consequences, from an order that works like clockwork, not an order that is at the whim of someone that clearly may need anger therapy

Archived_member15 · #40 (**permalink**) 23-Apr-2012, 21:03 PM

Dear brother Harry mundahug

Thank you most kindly my good sir! I appeciate this very much.You have provided me with an excellent post, and I more than sympathise with the points that you have raised. Allow me to offer some of my own thoughts.

I will take it in parts.

Firstly, on the concept of love.

"...The biblical image of love is not an emotion or feeling, but it is the glue and the motivator for each person to pursue a more Christ-like way of life...This bold Christian view of love demonstrates clearly that it cannot be reduced to emotion. Love looks like something. Here, St. Paul describes it with poetic detail. He tells what love is – patient, kind, enduring– as well as what it is not – jealous, pompous, inflated, rude, quick-tempered. The reading also foretells what happens when love is absent. Without it, lives and relationships are like a noisy gong. We can accumulate things, be showered with gifts, and even give things away, yet without love, all is worthless... A love that Christ demonstrates by dying for all of us is a bond of love that cannot be broken by anything – earthly, supernatural, or otherwise..."

- Father Darren M. Henson, a Catholic priest of the Archdiocese of Kansas City

I believe that you are talking about people who are driven solely by their emotions. A lot of Catholic teaching warns against being too emotional since as you say such a person given to extremities of love will also, by contrast, often be driven to extreme shows of anger if a negative circumstance were too arise, or if the object of their obsessive love were to spurn and reject it, which would often lead that so-called 'love' to take a jealous, wrathful turn. A good example of this is the character of Shakespeare's Othello. At the very start of the play he is over-the-top, ecstastically in love with his wife Desdemona. His love is demonstrative, powerfully affectionate and seems to consume Him. But when he suspects wrongly, fooled by his manipulative friend Iago, that Desdemona has cheated on Him with another man, he becomes vile and abusive towards her, violent and taciturn - which results in Him tragically strangling her to death at the end of the play before then committing suicide when he learns that she was innocent. Its a tragic but skilful depiction of a man overpowered and controlled by his strong emotions.

Thus we find that in the earliest Catholic/Christian document outside of the New Testament, the Didache (prononuced Day-DAR-kay), which means "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles", written between the years AD 50-60; and forming a crucial part of Catholic Sacred Unwritten Tradition as opposed to Written Scripture - we find this salient warning:

"...Two ways there are, one of spiritual life and one of spiritual death, but there is a great difference between the two ways. The way of life is indeed this: First, you will love the God who made you; secondly, "you will love your neighbor as yourself...Love those who hate you, and you will have no enemies. Yet hold yourself away from the fleshly and kosmic strong desires...You will not hate any people, but you will reprove some, and you will pray for some, and some you will love more than your life. My child, flee from every evil thing, and from everything like it. Do not become angry or prone to anger, for anger is the way to murder. Neither should you be jealous, nor one who creates strife, nor emotional. For murders are born out of all of these. My child, do not become strongly desirous...Now the way of death is this: First of all it is evil and filled with emotions..."

- Didache (AD 60-80), The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles to the Nations

So as you can see having strong emotions is something which even the earliest Christians warned against. The love which Christian's speak of, and which they say God IS, is not a human love founded on familiarity and affection. We feel that kind of love only for our closest associates, our family and the like. The love Christian's speak of is a Divine Love which in the original Greek of the New Testament is called agape - self-donating love. Its not so much an emotion as it is an state of mind and activity. Thus Saint Paul tells us in the Book of Romans, "Love is always patient and kind; love is never jealous; love is not boastful or conceited, it is never rude and never seeks its own advantage, it does not take offence or store up grievances. Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but finds its joy in the truth. It is always ready to make allowances, to trust, to hope and to endure whatever comes. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends” (1 Corinthians 13: 4-7 NJB)

Its about having a right attitude to life and other people, one which does not divide between good and evil; black and white; believer and non-believer but which motivates the person to be like God, to do good to everyone whether "evil" or "good" and to be willing to sacrifice ones own happiness, pleasure, comfort and even life for the sake of one's fellow human beings, no matter whether they are Mother Teresa or a drug dealer and thug. It is active and living - not a "feeling", it is a Way of Life for those who practice it.

Religion must be founded upon and built up in Love, for God is Love, and love in the Bible is never a 'feeling' but is always something which is active - hence why the word used most in the New Testament for love is "agape" or "charity" - a 'self-giving' love. The second word used for love in biblical greek is 'phileo' or brotherly love. Religion cannot be lived by oneself or for oneself. Religion connects us with the human race at large and gives us a universal vision of reality. The word religion comes from the Latin religio which means "to bind" or "to connect".

Hence why in 1890 Pope Leo XIII wrote:

“The maternal love of the Catholic Church embraces all people...It is the industrious guardian of the teachings of its Founder [Jesus] who, by His words and those of the apostles, taught men the fraternal necessity which unites the whole world. From Him we recall that everybody has sprung from the same source and is called to the same eternal happiness”

(Pope Leo XIII, CATHOLICAE ECCLESIAE;1890)

For Catholics love is not an emotion we develop, it is a Life that We Life, a life lived for the service of others and not ourselves, as the Bible tells us:

"...Live in love, as Christ loved us, and handed himself over for us...”

- Saint Paul, Ephesians (5:2, 25-32), Bible

This love, by necessity, makes us go beyond the confines of race and religion and grasp a deeper reality, the underlying unity of all human beings in their origin and destiny - in God, from whom we came and to whom we all return, as Pope Pius XII explained upon hearing that World War Two had begun in 1939:

"...What a wonderful vision, which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God. . . in the unity of its nature, composed equally in all men of a material body and a spiritual soul; in the unity of its immediate end and its mission in the world; in the unity of its dwelling, the earth, whose benefits all men, by right of nature, may use to sustain and develop life; in the unity of its supernatural end: God himself, to whom all ought to tend; in the unity of the means for attaining this end... This divine law of solidarity and love assures that all men are truly brothers, without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and societies. In the light of this unity of all mankind, which exists in law and in fact, individuals do not feel themselves isolated units, like grains of sand, but united by the very force of their nature and by their internal destiny, into an organic, harmonious mutual relationship which varies with the changing of times...With a heart torn by the sufferings and afflictions of so many of her sons, but with the courage and the stability that come from the promises of Our Lord, the Spouse of Christ goes to meet the gathering storms. This she knows, that the truth which she preaches, the charity which she teaches and practices, will be the indispensable counselors and aids to men of good will in the reconstruction of a new world based on justice and love, when mankind, weary from its course along the way of error, has tasted the bitter fruits of hate and violence...
Whatever We can do to hasten the day when the dove of peace may find on this earth, submerged in a deluge of discord, somewhere to alight, We shall continue to do..."

- Venerable Pope Pius XII,Summi Pontificatus (On the Unity of the Human Race) October 12, 1939

And so without exception this agape love given to us as a parting gift Christ on the night before his death on the cross, should impel us to exhibit selfless compassion and service towards all human beings irrespective of religion:

"...[Many non-Christians are] ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace; because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all...God forbid, then, that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith [non-Christians]. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation...”

- Blessed Pope Pius IX (QUANTO CONFICIAMUR, August 10, 1863)

“…I want to accustom all the inhabitants, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and nonbelievers, to look on me as their brother, the universal brother. Already they’re calling this house “the fraternity” (khaoua in Arabic) — about which I’m delighted — and realizing that the poor have a brother here — not only the poor, though: all men…Above all, always see Jesus in every person, and consequently treat each one not only as an equal and as a brother or sister, but also with great humility, respect and selfless generosity…”

- Blessed Charles de Foucauld (1858- 1916), Catholic mystic and martyr

Blessed Pope John Paul II stated in his apostolic letter Mulieris Dignitatem that:

“Man – whether man or woman – is the only being among the creatures of the visible world that God the Creator has willed for its own sake [to know him]; that creature is thus a person. Being a person means striving towards self-realization, which can only be achieved through a sincere gift of self. The model for this interpretation of the person is God himself".

And GOD IS LOVE!

Often this love does not feel good. Often it does not even appear to be on the surface "loving". Many early Christians were orstracized by their families for Love of Christ, for adherence to their faith. It is a love that can break bonds of familiarity, for the sake of a Higher Truth and a Higher Unity embracing all humankind.

This can be seen most clearly in the life of the third century AD Saint and Catholic martyr Perpetua, a young Roman Noblewoman.

Saints Perpetua and Felicity were martyred in Carthage in about the year A.D. 203, together with three others. In the year 203, Vivia Perpetua made the decision to become a Christian, although she knew it could mean her death during Septimus' persecution. The five martyrs were catechumens when they were arrested during the persecution of Emperor Septimus Severus, but they were baptized before they were led away to prison. Vivia Perpetua (whose name means "life everlasting") was a young married woman from a noble family and with an infant son, while Felicity was a servant and eight months pregnant. Perpetua’s mother and two brothers were Christian, but her father was pagan. When she was arrested, her father tried to get her to deny that she was a Christian in order to save her from execution, but Perpetua refused to deny her Lord. Christianity was at that time an illegal religion in that part of the Roman Empire. Her father was frantic with worry and tried to talk her out of her decision. We can easily understand his concern. At 22 years old, this well-educated, high-spirited woman had every reason to want to live -- including a baby son who was still nursing. We know she was married, but since her husband is never mentioned, many historians assume she was a widow.

Perpetua wrote an account of her trials before her death, which was finished and published after her death aged only 22 by her a friend, in which she tells us in her own words:

"...While we were still with the persecutors, and my father, for the sake of his affection for me, was persisting in seeking to turn me away, and to cast me down from the faith — “Father,” said I, “do you see, let us say, this vessel lying here to be a little pitcher, or something else?” And he said, “I see it to be so.” And I replied to him, “Can it be called by any other name than what it is?” And he said, “No.” “Neither can I call myself anything else than what I am, a Christian.” Then my father, provoked at this saying, threw himself upon me, as if he would tear my eyes out...After a few days there prevailed a report that we should be heard. And then my father came to me from the city, worn out with anxiety. He came up to me, that he might cast me down, saying, “Have pity my daughter, on my grey hairs. Have pity on your father, if I am worthy to be called a father by you. . . . Lay aside your courage, and do not bring us all to destruction; for none of us will speak in freedom if you should suffer anything.” These things said my father in his affection, kissing my hands, and throwing himself at my feet; and with tears he called me not Daughter, but Lady. And I grieved over the grey hairs of my father, that he alone of all my family would not rejoice over my passion. And I comforted him, saying, “On that scaffold whatever God wills shall happen. For know that we are not placed in our own power, but in that of God.” And he departed from me in sorrow..."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249

By law, a pregnant woman could not be executed, but Felicity soon gave birth in prison, and she was happy that she could suffer death for Christ with the others.

The prison was so crowded with people that the heat was suffocating. There was no light anywhere and Perpetua "had never known such darkness." The soldiers who arrested and guarded them pushed and shoved them without any concern. Perpetua had no trouble admitting she was very afraid, but in the midst of all this horror her most excruciating pain came from being separated from her baby.
The young slave, Felicity was even worse off for Felicity suffered the stifling heat, overcrowding, and rough handling while being eight months pregnant.
Two deaconswho ministered to the prisoners paid the guards so that the martyrs would be put in a better part of the prison. There her mother and brother were able to visit Perpetua and bring her baby to her. When she received permission for her baby to stay with her "my prison suddenly became a palace for me." Once more her father came to her, begging her to give in, kissing her hands, and throwing himself at her feet. She told him, "We lie not in our own power but in the power of God."
When she and the others were taken to be examined and sentenced, her father followed, pleading with her and the judge. The judge, out of pity, also tried to get Perpetua to change her mind, but when she stood fast, she was sentenced with the others to be thrown to the wild beasts in the arena. Her father was so furious that he refused to send her baby back to Perpetua.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249

The four new Christians went to the arena (the fifth, Secundulus, had died in prison) with joy and calm. Perpetua in usual high spirits met the eyes of everyone along the way. We are told she walked with "shining steps as the true wife of Christ, the darling of God."

When those at the arena tried to force Perpetua and the rest to dress in robes dedicated to their gods, Perpetua challenged her executioners. "We came to die out of our own free will so we wouldn't lose our freedom to worship our God. We gave you our lives so that we wouldn't have to worship your gods." She and the others were allowed to keep their clothes.

The men were attacked by bears, leopards, and wild boars. The women were stripped to face a rabid heifer. When the crowd, however, saw the two young women, one of whom had obviously just given birth, they were horrified and the women were removed and clothed again. Perpetua and Felicity were thrown back into the arena so roughly that they were bruised and hurt. Perpetua, though confused and distracted, still was thinking of others and went to help Felicity up. The two of them stood side by side as all four martyrs had their throats cut. Then they were tossed about by an exceptionally wild cow, gored, and thrown to the ground. Perpetua encouraged the others and astounded the crowd. Finally, they were put to the sword.

Perpetua, along with other Christians of Carthage, went bravely to her death while admonishing other Christians, "Stand firm in faith, love one another and do not be tempted to do anything wrong because of our sufferings."

However not being killed outright by the beasts, Saint Perpetua alone survived of the five victims and so a young gladiator was sent out into the Stadium to finish her off. When he saw that it was a delicate, pretty young woman that he - a hulking brute - had to kill, he wept and pleaded not to have to do so heinous a thing. Perpetua took pity on Him, and guided the sword of the frightened gladiator assigned to kill her to her own throat. The ancient account of her death says "Such a woman - one before whom the unclean spirit trembled - could not perhaps have been killed, had she herself not willed it."

Every single year Catholics honour Saint Perpetua by remembering her in every Easter Mass. She died for freedom to practice her religion. That is LOVE. And GURU TEGH BAHADUR DIED FOR THE FREEDOM OF PEOPLE OF OTHER FAITHS TO PRACTICE THEM! THAT IS LOVE!!!!

And so Saint Paul writes:

"...What will separate us from the love of Christ?
Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine,
or nakedness, or peril, or the sword?
No, in all these things, we conquer overwhelmingly
through him who loved us.
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life,
nor angels, nor principalities,
nor present things, nor future things,
nor powers, nor height, nor depth,
nor any other creature will be able to separate us
from the love of God in Christ Jesus..." (Romans 8:31b-35, 37-39)

This is the love that Perpetua exemplified; and you can substitute the words "Jesus Christ" above for "Love of God in Nanak", or "Love of God in Krishna" - it is a UNIVERSAL LOVE!

harry haller · #41 (**permalink**) 23-Apr-2012, 21:30 PM

Vouthon Veerji,

Many thanks for your post, most eloquently worded as per usual., however, I would be most grateful, if could answer in your own words the following which have not been clarified.

Quote:

“Man – whether man or woman – is the only being among the creatures of the visible world that God the Creator has willed for its own sake [to know him]; that creature is thus a person. Being a person means striving towards self-realization, which can only be achieved through a sincere gift of self. The model for this interpretation of the person is God himself".

And GOD IS LOVE!

Yet, in my bible quote, which formed the centre of my argument, you have not addressed the way in which God is described, you do, however, confirm that God is to be emulated, which leaves me slightly confused. How can I , if I were catholic, emulate a jealous and angry God?

Archived_member15 · #42 (**permalink**) 23-Apr-2012, 21:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Vouthon Veerji,

Many thanks for your post, most eloquently worded as per usual., however, I would be most grateful, if could answer in your own words the following which have not been clarified.

Yet, in my bible quote, which formed the centre of my argument, you have not addressed the way in which God is described, you do, however, confirm that God is to be emulated, which leaves me slightly confused. How can I , if I were catholic, emulate a jealous and angry God?

My dearest brother harry mundahug

I am writing this part as we speak LOL - remember I said I would reply to you in segments?

Give me a little bit of time to tweak what I'm writing

harry haller · #43 (**permalink**) 23-Apr-2012, 21:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vouthon

My dearest brother harry mundahug

I am writing this part as we speak LOL - remember I said I would reply to you in segments?

Give me a little bit of time to tweak what I'm writing

so you did!

Archived_member15 · #44 (**permalink**) 23-Apr-2012, 22:43 PM

Dear brother Harry

I think I went a little bit overboard with length in my previoius post so I'll try and keep this post more concise but still meaty.

Before I address the actual bible quote you provided me with directly, I would like to first explain the Catholic view of the Bible, which is quite different to how Protestants view the Bible, Muslims the Qur'an and Sikhs the Guru Granth Sahib ji. We have a radically different relationship to this sacred text, and it is important to understand this.

Our Muslim brothers often to refer to Christians as "People of the Book", a term of respect for other Abrahamic religions, but one which Catholics outright reject. Catholicism is not a religion of the Book, the Bible or otherwise.

As the Catechism explains:

"...The Catholic faith is not a "religion of the book." Catholicism is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living". If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter,the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."..."

Unlike the Qur'an and the sacred poetry of the Gurus, Jesus never wrote anything directly. He never came to give the world a Sacred Sctipture. Christians later wrote some of his words down, and the Apostles wrote writings that were written down for reasons of posterity that were later received as inspired writ, but this was never what Jesus commanded.

Jesus called Twelve Apostles and an extended group of disciples composed of men and women and created a construct now known from the early second century onwards as the Catholic Church which means in English, "the Universal Assembly" [of Christ's disciples]. He gave these Apostles a set of teachings which he desired to become a Tradition - this word comes from the Latin traditio which means, "to hand down". Jesus laid hands on the Apostles, ordaining them with his authority to teach, and they in turn laid hands on other people and gave them the authority to teach. And thus began what Catholics call, "the Apostolic Succession" - the direct line of succession of bishops stretching right back to the Apostles and then to Jesus Himself which constitutes the Magisterium or Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church united around the locus of stability that is the Church of Rome, headed by the Pope, where the Apostles Peter and Paul wanted the fledgling Church to forever have its centre of gravity, the root of this living, beathing tradition handed down from Christ to his Apostles and the Bishops, priests and laity that would suceed them down the generations.

The New Testament Writings are the codification of some of these teachings in Written form. However Catholics also possess multitudes of Unwritten, non-bliblical Apostolic teachings which are of equal authority with the Bible. The Church approved and selected the Writings which would form the New Testament, but it and not the Bible remained the Living Tradition created by Jesus and passed down from Bishop to Bishop by the laying on of hands. It only could infallibly interpret the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, through the lens of that Sacred Tradition of which the NT constitiuted the written part - and it interprets it in a progressive development of doctrine and understanding over time, that is still happening now, through the living witness of the Early Church Fathers, the later saints, scholastics, theologians, mystics and the Church hierarchy.

Thus the Catholic Church explained at Vatican II.

The Second Vatican Council ("Vatican II") wrote an important document called "On Divine Revelation" (Dei Verbum in Latin). It's quite readable, and contains definitive teaching on the full meaning of Catholic Tradition.
The Council notes the importance of seeing that Catholic Tradition is firmly rooted in the Apostles: it is Christ's whole gift to them, and to us. The Council writes:

In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion..., commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, and to impart to them heavenly gifts.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249
(Dei Verbum, 7)

It is specifically this "commissioning of the Apostles" that is fulfilled in the handing on of Catholic Tradition.
The Apostles dedicated themselves to this mission, and they appointed other faithful men to succeed them and carry on their work. That same passage of Dei Verbum continues:

This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing.
(Dei Verbum, 7)

To see Sacred Tradition in action, lets take the teaching that abortion is evil and cannot be condoned by Christians. This is stated nowhere in the Bible but Christ and Apostles clearly taught it.

This Sacred Tradition is attested as far back as the first century documents the Didache and the Epistle of Barnabus, written before the close of the Apostolic age:

The Didache

"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

"The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Now lets trace this Sacred Tradition about a century later, the Apostolic Age has closed but this Sacred revealed tradition is still being attested to by Church authorities as universal Christian belief from Jesus and the Apostles:

Tertullian

"In our case, a murder being once for all forbidden, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from the other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one; you have the fruit already in its seed" (Apology 9:8 [A.D. 197]).

And 200 years after this:

The Apostolic Constitutions

"Thou shalt not use magic. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; for he says, ‘You shall not suffer a witch to live’ [Ex. 22:18]. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . if it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed" (Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 [A.D. 400]).

And now just over 20 years ago in the modern Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Modern Catechism of the Catholic Church

"...2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes..."

That abortion is unlawful for Christians is thus (undisputably) Divine Revelation since it is a genuine Sacred Tradition that has always and universally been taught by the Church. But its not at all biblical.

Pope Benedict XVI gave a beautiful catechesis on Catholic Tradition in late April, 2006. He says that we miss the profound meaning of Catholic Tradition if we see it only as the handing on of a static Revelation.
More than that, it is the active, continuous work of the Holy Spirit in our particular time: it makes real and tangible "the active presence of the Lord Jesus in his people, realized by the Holy Spirit".
Seeing Catholic Tradition as the active presence of Christ through the work of the Spirit is precisely what accomplishes the "transmission of the goods of salvation" to us:

Thanks to Tradition, guaranteed by the ministry of the apostles and their successors, the water of life that flowed from the side of Christ and his saving blood comes to the women and men of all times. In this way, Tradition is the permanent presence of the Savior who comes to meet, redeem and sanctify us in the Spirit through the ministry of his Church for the glory of the Father.

This reality of the divine action of the Holy Spirit within the Church is essential to understanding Catholic Tradition. It is what makes Sacred Tradition something far different than mere human traditions.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249
Through that same action of the Spirit, Catholic Tradition incorporates us into the Communion of the Saints. It ensures the connection "between the experience of the apostolic faith, lived in the original community of the disciples, and the present experience of Christ in his Church."
The Pope concludes:

Tradition is the living river that unites us to the origins, the living river in which the origins are always present, the great river that leads us to the port of eternity. In this living river, the word of the Lord...: "And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age", is fulfilled again (Matthew 28:20).

Through Catholic Tradition, the Holy Spirit works to bring the grace and truth of Christ into our own lives.

Because Christ was born a Jew, and Christianity first emerged as a distinct religion from the Mother religion of Judaism, Christians inherited the Jewish scriptures known by Jews as the Tanakh and by us Christians as the Old Testament that you quote from above, and which you think based upon that quote from Nahum, depicts an angry, jealous and wrathful God.

The Old Testament does not form part of the teachings which Jesus passed down, however Christians do believe it to be inspired and divinely revealed BUT also to be imperfect and provisional unlike the Sacred Tradition passed down from Jesus, being written as it was by men of their times under the guidance of the Holy Spirit within them, who made use of their own experiences, knowledge, aptutides, skills and the genre that they chose to write these texts with. And so you get from these writings a true, holy and divine understanding of God but mediated through the understanding of imperfect human beings living many thousands of years ago amidst pagan nations worshipping many gods and in a state of permanent warfare and tribalism. God, nonetheless, guided this ancient people known as the Hebrews, gradually, from the depths of ignorance of his Nature and Oneness, from polytheism and human sacrifice to animal sacrifice, then to no sacrifices at all, from hatred to love, from war to peace - gradually revealing more and more about Himself to this little Middle-eastern tribe, moving them away from barbarity and paganism with every passing age, so that they would become "a light to the nations" - and fulfil his plan of being the race that would give birth to Jesus Christ who would go on to found a religion that would become the religion of the Roman Empire, slowly leading all the nations of the then known world away from polytheism to worship of One God, away from merely outward shows of ceremonial religion, and excessive rules and dietary codes, to a more interior religion founded upon a more exalted understanding of God as Love Itself.

Thus in the Catechism the Church explains:

204 God revealed himself progressively and under different names to his people

Dei Verbum itself notes, that the Old Testament “contains matters imperfect and provisional.” But the Council goes on to say that,

"These books [of the Old Testament] nevertheless show us authentic divine teaching. Christians should accept with veneration these writings which give expression to a lively sense of God, which are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way" (15).

Thus in other Books of the OT we find teachings such as this:

"...The Spirit of the Lord has filled the Universe...The whole universe before you is like a speck that tips the scales, and like a drop of morning dew that falls on the ground. But you are merciful to all, for you can do all things, and you overlook people's sins. For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made, for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living. For your immortal spirit is in all things...For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original author, by analogy, is seen...You, our God, are kind and true, patient, and ruling all things in mercy. For even if we sin we are yours, knowing your power..."

- The Book of Wisdom (Holy Bible)

The Book of Wisdom was written only aroumd 150 years before the birth of Christ and you can easily see the progression the Catholic Church speaks about.

The Book of Nahum which you quote from above was written by the Prophet Nahum in the 740s BC - that is OVER SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE THE BIRTH OF JESUS.

You thus quoted from a book produced - yes under the guidance of the Holy Spritit but by a people that were not yet even pure monotheists, but many of whom still worshipped many gods, passed their children through fire to sacrifice them to these foreign idols and did many other such barbarities.

The subject of Nahum's book is the approaching complete and final destruction of Nineveh, the capital of the great and at that time flourishing Assyrian empire by the Babylonian Empire. The King was at the height of his glory. Nineveh was a city of vast extent, and was then the center of the civilization and commerce of the world, a "bloody city all full of lies and robbery" (Nahum 3:1), for it had robbed and plundered all the neighboring nations. It was strongly fortified on every side, bidding defiance to every enemy.

From its opening, Nahum shows God to be slow to anger - a certain progression from the then current understandings of God by the Assyrians and other neighbouring nations with their multiple warrior gods who delighted in warfare, the spilling of blood and in frenzied orgies - although not as yet a pure understanding of God as taught by Christianity or Sikhism.

Thus Nahum writes,

Nahum 1:3 (NIV) The LORD is slow to anger and great in power...The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him

Slow to anger - far cry from this dude: Ashur, the King of the Assyrian gods, a circle or wheel, suspended from wings, and enclosing a warrior drawing his bow to discharge an arrow,

Ashur and the other deities were physical gods made of wood and stone that reflected human society. Nahum preached a God who was not of physical form, but was formless, whose form could not be depicted because he had none, who was slow to anger and a safe refuge for all who trusted in Him, who was infinetly good.

Ashur's followers chanted, "With the mighty power of the god Ashur, my lord, I marched to the land Sugu...I conquered their cities, took their gods, and brought out their booty, possessions and property. I burnt razed and destroyed their cities and turned them into ruin hills. I imposed heavy yoke of my dominion upon them and made them slaves of Ashur, my lord. I marched to the land of Sighu, people unsubmissive to the god Ashur my lord. I brought about their defeat. I built up mounds with the corpses..."

The Assyrian Army massacred men, women and children of the cities that refused to pay them tribute. Israel was one of them. And now Nahum, in the name of the true God, was standing up and fearlessly declaring that the rule of the Assyrian Empire was at an end and a new age was coming, where men would trust not in gods of wood and stone but in the Onle, Living God - not in the power of men but in the divine.

Jesus taught:

"...But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect..."

- Jesus Christ (Gospel of Matthew 5:44-48)

God makes his sun rise on evil and good without partiality and with equal love and care? And furthermore this selfless, impartial, open-ended, universally applicable love is the justification for the need of Christians to love their enemies?

You will not find that full, purified depiction of God yet in the Book of Nahum. Humanity was not yet advanced enough. The most important thing then according to the Divine Plan was to remove humanity from idolatry and pride and strength in human might, arms and warfare and idolatry.

Nahum was telling the humanity of his time that the Assyrian Empire, for all its power and might, would pass away. It was mortal, it could not last. And so he directed their attention to a Higher Power, which he called YHWH - translated as, "the Lord" in our Bibles. The Divine Name YHWH could not be pronounced, so had to be substituted with other words, and it means, "I AM WHO AM". A God who IS. Not an idol to be worshipped with human and animal sacrifices. And Nahum, to convince his people of this truth, made use of the violent imagery then used by the Assyrians to describe both their own power and their gods - the message was simple: Everything that you think these violent, worldly Kings and Empires are, God is so much more. Trust in Him and not in mere men!

It took a long time to get humanity to the exalted, pure vision of God that is found in Sikhism and indeed in the Catholic mystics.

Please don't judge ancient peoples by modern standards. Its not fair brother.

How can one compare a poem to God written 3000 years ago during the Assyrian conquest of Israel and Guru Nanak in the 1400s? So much progression has happened since then.

Archived_member15 · #45 (**permalink**) 23-Apr-2012, 23:16 PM

Oh btw just in case anyone gets confused, one of the ancient quotes I have above on abortion writes:

"Thou shalt not use magic. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; for he says, ‘You shall not suffer a witch to live’ [Ex. 22:18]. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . if it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed" (Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 [A.D. 400]).

When it speak of witchcraft it is talking about pagan practices such as passing children through fire to cast mythical spells and offering them to gods that don't exist in the context of the quote from Exodus about augurs, which took place over 1,000 years before Christ. And when it says "avenged" it is referring to the canonical penalty of preventing a Catholic from receiving the sacraments for a period of time so as to hit home the gravity of the crime which has taken place - abortion, infanticide or passing children through fire- from the Christian perspective, just in case anyone was like - What??? The Book of Exodus describes how pagan witches and shamens would send children through fire in mystical rituals in a form of child sacrifice that was practiced as late as Roman times in some places
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249

In the Torah Moses said that the death penalty should be given for witches and shamens that passed their children through fire, however the Early Christians believed that the death penalty was illegal - that no life could be taken away. So they suggested imposed a merely canonical penalty for this crime, not being able to partake of the sacraments. As the Church Fathers explain concerning capital punishment:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38249

“We cannot endure even to see a man put to death, though justly.” – Saint Athenagoras of Athens (aprox 180 AD), Church Father, A Plea for the Christians 35

"When God forbids us to kill, he not only prohibits the violence that is condemned by public laws, but he also forbids the violence that is deemed lawful by men...Nor is it lawful to accuse anyone of a capital offense. It makes no difference whether you put a man to death by word, or by the sword. It is the act of putting to death itself which is prohibited. Therefore, regarding this precept of God there should be no exception at all. Rather it is always unlawful to put to death a man, whom God willed to be a sacred animal.” – Lactantius, Church Father (aprox 240-317 AD), Divine Institutes 6.20

"During the first few centuries after Jesus' execution, Christians were instructed to not participate in the execution of a criminal, to not attend public executions, and even to not lay a charge against a person if it might possibly eventually result in their execution. Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr and other Christian writers who discussed capital punishment during the first three centuries after Jesus' execution were absolutely opposed to it." - VIEWS OF THE EARLY CHRISTIAN MOVEMENTS ON THE DEATH PENALTY