As a Sikh do you ever ask when hurting or feeling low, God/Creator, why me?

Scarlet Pimpernel · #28 (**permalink**) 21-Apr-2012, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Spji,

I find this a tiny bit Abrahamic given the multitude of people around the world in pain. I did not realise pain was rated so highly as a means of character formation............

Musketeer funny you should say that as Abraham means father of the multitude.

I see you have an aversion to Abraham .These are the attributes of God in Christianity is he that different?.

Aseity
Eternity
Graciousness
Holiness
Immanence
Immutability
Impassibility
Impeccability
Incorporeality
Love
Mission
Omnibenevolence
Omnipotence
Omnipresence
Omniscience
Oneness
Providence
Righteousness
Simplicity
Transcendence
Trinity
Veracity
Wrath

harry haller · #29 (**permalink**) 21-Apr-2012, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

Musketeer funny you should say that as Abraham means father of the multitude.

I see you have an aversion to Abraham .These are the attributes of God in Christianity is he that different?.

Aseity
Eternity
Graciousness
Holiness
Immanence
Immutability
Impassibility
Impeccability
Incorporeality
Love
Mission
Omnibenevolence
Omnipotence
Omnipresence
Omniscience
Oneness
Providence
Righteousness
Simplicity
Transcendence
Trinity
Veracity
Wrath

Firstly, I have never found Creator to be wrathful, secondly, the Abrahamic god has form, gets angry, plays mind games, demands respect and is capable of great destruction. Yes, I do think he is that different.......

BhagatSingh · #30 (**permalink**) 21-Apr-2012, 13:57 PM

Harry ji,
The Creator-tion (Creator-Creation complex) is in complete Oneness (non-descriptive) until the Oneness is seen as duality. In duality the Creator (is perceived as one who) loves and gets angry and becomes destructive and protective towards His Creation and all that juicy stuff. Recall the story of Prahlaad. For Prahlaad's protection, the Creator exploded out of the pillar (was perceived in duality) as a Man-Lion and unleashed His wrath on the Demon king.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #31 (**permalink**) 21-Apr-2012, 18:55 PM

Quote:

Firstly, I have never found Creator to be wrathful, secondly, the Abrahamic god has form, gets angry, plays mind games, demands respect and is capable of great destruction. Yes, I do think he is that different.......

Veera He was angry back in Biblical times but by the time Sikhism started he had calmed down.

harry haller · #32 (**permalink**) 21-Apr-2012, 22:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

Veera He was angry back in Biblical times but by the time Sikhism started he had calmed down.

In Sikhism, Creator is formless, without hate, judges everyone to be equal, be they homosexual or female, I know its all very 'right on' to view God/Creator as the same in all religions, but I find the Abrahamic God to be a completely different concept from that which Guru Nanak Ji gave us, both in description, personality and order.

Archived_member15 · #33 (**permalink**) 21-Apr-2012, 22:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Firstly, I have never found Creator to be wrathful, secondly, the Abrahamic god has form, gets angry, plays mind games, demands respect and is capable of great destruction. Yes, I do think he is that different.......

Dearest Harry

"...Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God...Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them...There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love..."

- 1 John 4:18 (Holy Bible)

Is this really a fair assesment of the Christian conception of God? It is not the conception of God espoused by Jesus or the Church Fathers or Saints of the Catholic Churches. It is not the God I believe in or worship.

Catholicism teaches us that God is everywhere; that he is Unknowable in essence; that He is Love itself in the plenitude of his nature without any trace or shred of hatred; that he loves all, whether humans consider them good or bad; that he sustains all and that he is ultimately nothingness.

I believe that the Creator is unknowable and inexpressible in his essence. He is pure spirit. No one has ever seen God. None can ever know him as he is in Himself. We will never and can never fully understand God. In this sense God is impersonal, transcendent, above and beyond all conceptions of human thought or imagination. In the very truest sense, God does not really "exist" in the way we do. For from Him came all things in existence, and so he is not Himself a "thing", not a created reality, rather he is "nothing" - that is "no-thing". In this sense there is a distiction between Creator and creature.

And yet in a different way, God is also - without being paradoxical - knowable. He is closer to us than our own soul. He is our very being, the ground of our being, the First Cause from which springs all created reality. He is known to us through the imprint of his being which lives and moves and breathes in and through all things. He is known to us through ourselves - for our bodies are the Temples within which his Holy Spirit dwells. We are made in his Image, and so he is known to us through other human beings. God is Love and so all who love are born of God and know God. In every perfect act of human love, we see God. He enlightens all men who are in the world, who ever have been in the world and who will ever be.

In this sense God is not separate from ourselves, and there is no distinction between Him and us. This is what Meister Eckhart understood when he exclaimed: "The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love. Your human nature and that of the divine Word are no different.” (Meister Eckhart)

This is from the Baltimore Catechism published in the 1870s and 1880s, that was taught to all Catholic school children throughout the United States and internationally and was the an authoritative compilation of Catholic doctrine:

"... 164. What do we mean when we say God is "infinitely perfect"?

A. When we say God is "infinitely perfect" we mean there is no limit or bounds to His perfection; for He possesses all good qualities in the highest possible degree and He alone is "infinitely perfect."

Q. 165. Had God a beginning?

A. God had no beginning; He always was and He always will be.

Q. 166. Where is God?

A. God is everywhere.

Q. 167. How is God everywhere?

A. God is everywhere whole and entire as He is in any one place. This is true and we must believe it, though we cannot understand it.

Q. 168. If God is everywhere, why do we not see Him?

A. We do not see God, because He is a pure spirit and cannot be seen with bodily eyes.

Q. 169. Why do we call God a "pure spirit'?

A. We call God a pure spirit because He has no body. Our soul is a spirit, but not a "pure" spirit, because it was created for union with our body.

Q. 170. Why can we not see God with the eyes of our body?

A. We cannot see God with the eyes of our body because they are created to see only material things, and God is not material but spiritual..."

- The Baltimore Catechism (1885), (then) authoritative compilation of Catholic teachings

Catholicism has a rich spiritual tradition with a sacramental vision of reality that sees God's presence in everything, everwhere and in everyone.

To quote a doctor of the Church:

"...God said unto me: I gleam in the waters, and I burn in the sun, moon and stars. With every breeze I awaken everything to life...Oh fire of the Holy Spirit, life of the life of every creature, holy are you in giving life to forms ...Oh boldest path, penetrating into all places, in the heights, on earth, and in every abyss, you bring and bind together. From you clouds flow, air flies, Rocks have their humours, Rivers spring forth from the waters And earth wears her green vigour... Human beings cannot live without the rest of nature, they must care for all natural things...Then creation recognized its Creator in its own forms and appearances. For in the beginning, when God said, "Let it be!" and it came to pass, the means and the Matrix of creation was Love, because all creation was formed through Her as in the twinkling of an eye...Do not mock anything God has created. All creation is simple, plain and good. And God is present throughout his creation. Why do you ever consider things beneath your notice? God's justice is to be found in every detail of what he has made...No creature has meaning without the Word of God. God's Word is in all creation, visible and invisible. The Word is living, being, spirit, all verdant greening, all creativity. This Word flashes out in every creature. This is how the spirit is in the flesh—the Word is indivisible from God..."

- Saint Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), philosopher, mystic, visionary, artist, poet, composer, theologian and Doctor of the Catholic Church

"...The fullness of joy is to behold God in everything..."

- Blessed Julian of Norwich (1342 –1416), Catholic mystic

"...The day of my spiritual awakening was the day I saw and knew I saw all things in God and God in all things..."

- Saint Mechthild of Madgeburg (c. 1207 – c. 1282/1294)

Dearest brother Harry, do you find these Catholic teachings objectionable? Do you think that we do not worship the same God as Sikhs?

Certainly I believe that Catholics and Sikhs worship one and the same God; as do Muslims, Hindus etc.

We might have varying understandings of Him, but there are common, universal expressions as well and I find nothing in the Catholic conception of God that is not in tune with Sikhism apart from the obvious exceptions of the Incarnation of God in Christ and the Trinity.

Ambarsaria · #34 (**permalink**) 21-Apr-2012, 23:04 PM

Vouthon Veer/Brother ji I have some comments. I am sure Harry veer will answer too as you requested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vouthon

Dearest brother Harry, do you find these Catholic teachings objectionable?Do you think that we do not worship the same God as Sikhs?

Vouthon ji I am actually shocked at closeness of thought between Catholicism quotes that you post versus what I understand of Sikhism thoughts. I believe we are closer than we are far.

I believe the issues come up in the delivery of the message or the definition of someone chosen to represent God/creator. Sikhism does not associate with the concept of someone speaking on behalf of or so chosen to speak for God/creator at variance to all humanity. Sikhism without reservation recognizes all as one in the court of God/creator (i.e. the creation we are part of). There is place for the wise, the learned, the pious, but not being any closely associated with God/creator versus any man/woman/child on the street. They just may have better developed understanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vouthon

Certainly I believe that Catholics and Sikhs worship one and the same God; as do Muslims, Hindus etc.

Vouthon ji the issue is not about God/creator but its personification, its idolization, access control to God/creator through messengers of God, deities representing God, the institutions set up to organize and exploit the common person and indoctrinate them in the name of God/creator.

This is equivalent to the phrase that "devil is in the detail".

So the details in Catholics, Muslims, Hindus are significantly different and these detail destroy any commonness that may be at the origin.

This is the dilemma! Technically if all Sikhs, Catholics, Hidus, Muslims stayed to the one creator/God much defined as formless and pretty close in essence between Sikhism and Catholicism, then whole world could all be Sikhs. It appears Sikhs have stuck to the source while others have then elaborated and created divisions.

At least that is what I think!icecreamkaur

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vouthon

We might have varying understandings of Him, but there are common, universal expressions as well and I find nothing in the Catholic conception of God that is not in tune with Sikhism apart from the obvious exceptions of the Incarnation of God in Christ and the Trinity.

Thank you very well put.

One has to think how big a divide it creates. I believe it creates a big one philosophically that becomes segregational when implemented to make Sikhs as Sikhs and Catholics as Catholics.

Regards and always enjoy your posts.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #35 (**permalink**) 21-Apr-2012, 23:07 PM

Quote:

obvious exceptions of the Incarnation of God in Christ and the Trinity.

Christian ,Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is full of stories about incarnations of God but everyone takes them to be mythology.

Luckysingh · #36 (**permalink**) 22-Apr-2012, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Firstly, I have never found Creator to be wrathful, secondly, the Abrahamic god has form, gets angry, plays mind games, demands respect and is capable of great destruction. Yes, I do think he is that different.......

I'm sorry, I'm not sure you really mean this because I find it difficult to agree.
I've always assumed all these references are for the same One God, wether abrahamic or not.
This view is more familiar with the extreme islamic view that some have today.
I probably wouldn't have had any faith today if it were not for the teachings of Jesus that I learnt when younger. I simply cannot deny any teachings of the bible even though it is not my chosen faith.
Let's not forget that it's similar views to this, that end up starting wars and world wars.