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Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent?

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adherent, hindu or sikh, hinduism, karma, reincarnation, valid, vedanta, vedas
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  #172 (permalink)  
Old 09-Mar-2012, 08:35 AM
Archived_member14's Avatar Archived_member14 Archived_member14 is offline
 
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Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent?

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Bhagat ji,


I read you express this view before in other messages and wanted to respond to it but couldn't. But I will do it now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BhagatSingh View Post
Confused ji,
We also pass on our genes. So the genes which make someone an excellent Brahmin are passed on to his offspring, increasing the likelyhood that he will be good at (and thus more likely to choose) the same profession. The qualities we posses like intelligence, love for learning, love for knowledge and truth, ability to maintain focus, etc actually have a biological basis. So the offspring is more likely to have the qualities a Brahmin has. They do often carry over from profession to profession. Strong leadership is good not only for Kshatriya, for example.

I am quite sure that you will not find a correspondence between this and any of the ancient religions, including Sikh. And it is not because there was no knowledge about genes then, but rather that the view you express is a materialistic one. Science which reduces mental phenomena as being byproduct of material phenomena will read into all its discoveries the materialistic view. The ancients however knew mental phenomena to be completely different from physical phenomena.

As I suggested in a message to Ambarsaria ji, genes being ultimately material phenomena, what is passed on from one generation to the next are only physical attributes. Mental phenomena on the other hand rise and fall away and condition the next one to arise on and on. All tendencies reside in the one instance of consciousness which passes on everything to the succeeding consciousness by way of several conditions, most notably contiguity condition.

Physically, I am almost a carbon copy of my father. But mentally, apart from being hot tempered and great attachment to taste, I see few similarities. Yes, there is this that when we think in terms of basic tendencies such as attachment to sense objects, anger, lust, pride, kindness, giving, morality and so on, we *all* have these to a lesser or greater degree. It is therefore easy to jump to conclusions when observing any two persons who happen to react more or less similarly to particular situations that their habits are the same, but this can be misleading. Indeed it is our habit to generalize and jump to conclusions, but this is because we do not in fact at the time, understand reality.

But of course there is also the fact that the Karma which conditions rebirth, just as this determines the kind of being one is born as, when a human being, also determines the kind of family one is born into. Just like now, we tend to associate with like-minded people; members of one family may have certain inclinations similar to each other. Also that particular karma marshals other karmas to bear fruit in what might then be seen as a 'pattern'. So if different members of a family receive more or less the same set of experiences, it is not surprising that the son for example, has developed over time, conditioned responses similarly to the father.

And imagine this. If the son becomes enlightened but the father doesn't, the habits of the son must clearly have changed completely. Would this mean that his genes must also have changed? No, because genes don't change…..

But really, gene is a concept and is never the object of wisdom, which is why it would never be the concern of the wise of old. More importantly though, they knew that particular material realities (from which the concept 'gene' is derived) may act as “base” or place of birth for the arising of mental realities, for example, the eye-base is birthplace for seeing consciousness and ear-base for hearing, and they know that some of them are “caused by” mentality, such as speech and bodily intimation. *But materiality can never be the “cause” for mentality*. To think that it does must be due to the influence of a materialistic view which is one kind of wrong view. Indeed this view understands neither mental nor physical phenomena since to understand one requires understanding the other as well. So really, science is completely ignorant when it comes to reality / Truth.

Why would someone interested in religion be moved by the findings of science in such matters? Religion encourages the increase in good and reduction of evil and these clearly points to a mechanism within the mental phenomena not related to any material phenomena. Wisdom is developed by repeated arising. Good vs. evil, one increase in frequency over the other is by virtue of whether there is more wisdom or there is more ignorance.

When a religion encourages us to do good and avoid evil, what does this imply? Is it not that one must see the value of good and the harm of evil and that in this very seeing is the right course of action taken? Wherefore the necessity to refer to materiality and gene or even brain? If materiality was the cause for mentality then science could very well come out one day with an enlightenment pill. But enlightened people of the past *did not* have any pill nor it mattered which caste he or she was born into. This is because the development of wisdom follows a path which requires recognition of the obstructions such as ignorance, craving, wrong understanding and so on. Can a pill eradicate any of these tendencies, ones that have been accumulated from aeons in the past?

Besides if we are to except Karma and the fact of rebirth, what of the fact that in the last life we were a cockroach and now a human being and these two have very different genes?

Very misleading I'd say this idea that genes influence our inclinations and habits. Besides this actually leans toward a deterministic view which science itself at other times object to. :-/



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  #173 (permalink)  
Old 09-Mar-2012, 08:49 AM
Ambarsaria's Avatar Ambarsaria Ambarsaria is offline
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Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Confused View Post
Besides if we are to except Karma and the fact of rebirth, what of the fact that in the last life we were a cockroach and now a human being and these two have very different genes?
Confused ji thanks for your post.

I hope you realize tha Genetics has killed re-incarnation. A la ".. last life we were a cockroach and now a human being". This don't happen bro .

I am running low on energy but will pick up and comment on other posts in the future. I virtually read all your posts end-to-end but timing varies. Always enjoy whether agree, disagree or get beaten by you

Metta.
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  #174 (permalink)  
Old 09-Mar-2012, 09:31 AM
Archived_member14's Avatar Archived_member14 Archived_member14 is offline
 
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Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent?

Ambarsaria ji,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambarsaria View Post
Confused ji thanks for your post.

I hope you realize tha Genetics has killed re-incarnation. A la ".. last life we were a cockroach and now a human being". This don't happen bro .

I am running low on energy but will pick up and comment on other posts in the future. I virtually read all your posts end-to-end but timing varies. Always enjoy whether agree, disagree or get beaten by you


Metta.


And I thought that I just killed genetics, the part it professes to make a statement about habitual tendencies.

But I'll wait for your response to say more.
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  #175 (permalink)  
Old 09-Mar-2012, 15:56 PM
dogra's Avatar dogra dogra is offline
 
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Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BhagatSingh View Post
Confused ji,

Adi Shankaracharya ji bowed to a low caste, whom he realized to be enlightened. Guru Ramanand ji (whose student Bhagat Kabir ji's writings form a large portion of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, as Kabir ji's writings were available) was a Brahmin, he allowed members of all castes and outcastes to benefit from his teachings (Bhagat Ravidas and Bhagat Dhana were two of his students). An example of such a Brahmin (economist and political scientist) is also present as the guide of King Chandra Gupta Maurya, who helped Maurya build the Mauryan empire. Kirpa Ram Dutt was Guru Gobind Singh ji's Sanskrit teacher.

.
Indeed, but again there is no higher nor lower caste, in fact there is no caste in Sanatan Dharma. Varna system is that whereby any individual can attain any function by their practice and study, completere freedom of choice regardless of any Birth.
http://agniveer.com/888/caste-system/
Quote:
Varna’ means one that is adopted by choice. Thus, while Jaati is provided by God, ‘Varna’ is our own choice.
Those who choose to be Arya are called ‘Arya Varna’. Those who choose to be Dasyu become ‘Dasyu Varna’. Same for Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra.
That is why Vedic Dharma is called ‘Varnashram Dharma’. The word Varna itself implies that this is based on complete freedom of choice and meritocracy.
Due to Internet verses are reducating many more people, and we are questioning more, and trying to reconcile main points.
Point of Guru being higher is in terms of Knowledge, but in terms of essence of human being, treat Cleaner and Guru on equal terms, e.g. accept themto Dinner table, share food together, accept any of their offspring, if suitable in character terms, for marriage for relatives.....
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  #176 (permalink)  
Old 29-Mar-2012, 01:41 AM
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Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent?

Confusedji

some comments

Quote:
You feel horny and about to wake your wife up, but suddenly think that she needs a rest, so you don't wake her up.

Do all these not clearly point to mental actions?
When you steal or kill, these are bodily actions, but are they not conditioned by the mind? What you refer to as discipline, is this not about will, determination and restraint all mental phenomena? Body is body, it is a physical phenomenon and physical phenomenon, unlike mental phenomenon, does not know anything.
I have to concede this

Quote:
So you still think Hesse had something substantial to say and understood what enlightenment means…..
In all honesty, I have a huge affinity for Hesse, I think we are both as misguided and lost as each other


Quote:
But frankly I don't understand your response, what point are you making? Besides what I said with reference to the past is not that there is no learning *in* the past, but rather that there is no learning *from thinking about* the past.
I think about the past a lot, and not always in a learning capacity, I am ashamed to say that if I am honest, I yearn for the past, and not to change things either, but to do it all again, but I guess that is selective memory, I remember the good times, the pleasure, not the fear, not the pain.

Quote:
And in case you doubt this, allow me draw your attention to the fact of wise people of all traditions, including I believe Sikhism as well, pointing out the uselessness of thinking about the past and future and the importance being in the present. Indeed given that we think almost all the time with attachment, aversion and ignorance, in this particular case of seeking to learn from the past there must also be wrong understanding involved. And this more than anything else, takes one further away from the possibility of understanding the reality of what is “now”.
Again, if I am posting honestly, and I am in a particular honest mood, I spend a lot of the time either in the past or planning the future, the now seems to be something I just have to suffer

Quote:
You are attached to the story of your life as we all are to ours. What is recalled, how different scenes are arranged and what value is given to each and the overall story is dictated by the ignorance and attachment now. Would you want this to continue on or would you rather develop more understanding of thinking and what motivates the thinking?
Although I was happy that I had felt I had conquered my demons, you are suggesting that all I have done is develop an aversion to them, and I still do not understand why. I think you could be correct

Quote:
There can be no real learning when ignorance and attachment is at the root. And it is clear that when such thinking goes on, conceit or ego is being encouraged as well. Knowing this, I'm sure you'd not want this to continue, would you?
There are some days when it flows, when everything makes sense, days like the day I posted this reply, today I struggle to see the point of view I was making, possibly because I am agitated, I am not sure, however, today I feel like I have learned nothing, I have simply been burnt, I have a childish response to it, not a response of true understanding, so, no, I do not wish this to continue, however I run the risk of losing those days when it does flow, when it does make sense, for understanding 100% of the time, it is a risk and one I have to think carefully about taking

Quote:
If there is no wisdom, can anything of value be seen for what it is?
certainly food for thought


Quote:
You can go on with your life as it is without the need to judge any of it as 'progress'. Indeed if you think this way with attachment, this is a step backwards is it not? You should take care not to judge any reduction in sense-indulgence as 'moderation' as this in fact is an aspect of wisdom. If what you do is diversion and / or suppression of some kind, you'd need to know it for what it is and not think that you've made progress in terms of morality and wisdom. And why would someone who seeks to understand, look for peace? So again you should not judge the value of what you do in terms of how much peace you now experience.
This is something to contemplate on tonight, I thank you again for your time and energies
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  #177 (permalink)  
Old 29-Mar-2012, 14:45 PM
Babajis Servant's Avatar Babajis Servant Babajis Servant is offline
 
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Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent?

SSA,

Just I want to add one of the Hindu point of view on the above article.

I have gone through all the post on this article, what I noticed here that few Sikhs see hindu religion as untouchable and a total myth, even tough they again and again say they respect Hindu religion. What type of respect is this?
I have a deep faith in Sri Guru Granth Sahibji and all Ten Gurus and his beloved ones, and for this I dont need any Sikh certificate to prove my love and respect to Sri Guru Granth Sahibji and all Ten Gurus and his beloved ones.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37952-is-hindu-sikh-a-valid-adherent.html

My mind and soul is in Babjis feet, I know he will show me what a true Sikhi is.

U Sikh behave just like Brahmins, how Hindu Gods are just property of Brahmins, Same way Sikh want to keep Sri Guru Granth Sahibji and all Ten Gurus only to them.

But they belongs to all who love them, Baba Nanak has eaten food from Low cast Bhai Lalo (might be he was a Low cast hindu), same way Lord Ram has eaten, half eaten barries from Low cast Sabri.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37952

My knowledge on Sri Guru Granth Sahibji in nothing I can not even touch him, but just a meer glance on him gives me peace in my heart.

I know you all are big scholars on Sri Guru Granth Sahibji, but still I fee "Ja ke rahe bhavna Jaise, Hair Murat Dikhe tin tahe taise" (means Gods will look same as how u want to see him), so if some one says Sri Guru Granth Sahibji says all Hindus texts and books are myths, Its just that individual feeling want he want to take it out of Babaji and its not actually Sri Guru Granth Sahibji word.

Gurfateh
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  #178 (permalink)  
Old 29-Mar-2012, 18:27 PM
Ambarsaria's Avatar Ambarsaria Ambarsaria is offline
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Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent?

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Babajis Servant ji thanks for your post. Very well written post. I have one comment,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babajis Servant View Post
I know you all are big scholars on Sri Guru Granth Sahibji, but still I fee "Ja ke rahe bhavna Jaise, Hair Murat Dikhe tin tahe taise" (means Gods will look same as how u want to see him), so if some one says Sri Guru Granth Sahibji says all Hindus texts and books are myths, Its just that individual feeling want he want to take it out of Babaji and its not actually Sri Guru Granth Sahibji word. Gurfateh
Your comment about seeing what you want to see is generally quite applicable. In respect to Guru ji's we need to note though that they were trying to encourage different and beyond Hinduism beliefs. Their end objective to me was that to enlighten people and encourage them to openly and truthfully see what is the creator. They made tremendous use of existing beliefs as those were their audience. They did encourage people to unshackle from blind believing and I believe that is fundamental.

Beyond the above everyone is unique and special in creation and so it should be recognized.

Regards. mundahug

Last edited by Ambarsaria; 29-Mar-2012 at 21:05 PM.
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