Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism?

Ambarsaria · #37 (**permalink**) 27-Nov-2011, 07:29 AM

Bhagat Singh ji can you tell or say what you chant?

Is it Wahegugu Wahegur ...; etc.

It is very hard to relate as it can't be just "Naam Naam ......"

Is their a video example that willcome close to what you mean?

Thanks and Sat Sri Akal.
*

Taranjeet singh · #38 (**permalink**) 27-Nov-2011, 10:07 AM

Findingmyway ji,

Kindly find the first sabad at ang 220 with small write up. I have not expanded as the purpose of Line 220-19 was included in the post to state the Bani contains reference to Ridhi and sidhi. However, as desired I am giving below the full sabad. I have also given some links to Naam that I understand in different context and shall post my views at appropriate time

Context to this Thread

Line 220-19 was posted to show that bani- contains a reference to Ridhi and sidhi i.e super natural powers. It is, however, not the aspiration of a sikh to attain these types of powers. These may be bye products and Bonus to a practitioner of Naam and bani. One may kindly refer to the post at the link:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-s...sticism-2.html
Post dated 25^th November, 2011
Shabad at ang 220

Shabad at page 220 deals with various aspects of Sikhism and embraces within its fold many valuable concepts. I have taken the help of translation from Sant Sigh ji Khalsa .. As the sabad is fairly lengthy, to look at the lines up to Rahao and reflect on the essence of sabad

Concepts introduced that one may like to study further
Maya, Naam, spiritual wisdom, Jeevan Mukt., ego, Gurmukh, Manmukh, Hukum, His Grace

Full shabad in Gurmukhi reads as follows

rwgu gauVI AstpdIAw mhlw 1 gauVI guAwryrI (220-18)
Raag Gauree, Ashtapadees, First Mehl: Gauree Gwaarayree:
<> siqnwmu krqw purKu gur pRswid ] (220-18)
iniD isiD inrml nwmu bIcwru ] (220-19, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
pUrn pUir rihAw ibKu mwir ] (220-19, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
iqRkutI CUtI ibml mJwir ] (220-19, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
gur kI miq jIie AweI kwir ]1] (221-1, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
ien ibiD rwm rmq mnu mwinAw ] (221-1, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
igAwn AMjnu gur sbid pCwinAw ]1] rhwau ] (221-1, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
ieku suKu mwinAw shij imlwieAw ] (221-2, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
inrml bwxI Brmu cukwieAw ] (221-2, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
lwl Bey sUhw rMgu mwieAw ] (221-3, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
ndir BeI ibKu Twik rhwieAw ]2] (221-3, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
ault BeI jIvq mir jwigAw ] (221-3, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
sbid rvy mnu hir isau lwigAw ] (221-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
rsu sMgRih ibKu prhir iqAwigAw ] (221-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
Bwie bsy jm kw Bau BwigAw ]3] (221-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
swd rhy bwdM AhMkwrw ] (221-5, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
icqu hir isau rwqw hukim Apwrw ] (221-5, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
jwiq rhy piq ky Awcwrw ] (221-5, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
idRsit BeI suKu Awqm Dwrw ]4] (221-6, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37649-does-sikhism-embrace-mysticism.html
quJ ibnu koie n dyKau mIqu ] (221-6, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
iksu syvau iksu dyvau cIqu ] (221-6, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
iksu pUCau iksu lwgau pwie ] (221-7, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
iksu aupdyis rhw ilv lwie ]5] (221-7, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
gur syvI gur lwgau pwie ] (221-7, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
Bgiq krI rwcau hir nwie ] (221-8, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
isiKAw dIiKAw Bojn Bwau ] (221-8, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
hukim sMjogI inj Gir jwau ]6] (221-8, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
grb gqM suK Awqm iDAwnw ] (221-9, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
joiq BeI joqI mwih smwnw ] (221-9, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
ilKqu imtY nhI sbdu nIswnw ] (221-9, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
krqw krxw krqw jwnw ]7] (221-10, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
nh pMifqu nh cquru isAwnw ] (221-10, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
nh BUlo nh Brim Bulwnw ] (221-10, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
kQau n kQnI hukmu pCwnw ] (221-10, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
nwnk gurmiq shij smwnw ]8]1] (221-11, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 1)
Rahao Line
The nine treasures and the miraculous spiritual powers come by contemplating the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord. One has to be above Maya for attaining the higher spiritual states. Lord, himself, helps His devotees to overcome the Maya, the fangs of whom would not torture the Gurmukh..Guru sahibs state further the significance of Gurmat and Guruvaaks. It is through contemplation of Gurbani and Guru sabad and Naam that one attains wisdom and bibek budhi and all that is stated above.

Sabad- In Brief as per my understanding

By HIS grace Maya and its influence can be annulled.One can attain the state of Jeevan Mukt by contemplating Bani and Naam. Gurmukh overcomes ego and his pursuit for physical possessions and worldly honor also comes to halt. It is through Guru’s Grace that one finds peace, solace and tranquility and mind realizes the His essence that becomes visible to the one who contemplates Naam and bani. In this state one finds only the Lord as the best friend and one remains immersed in His name. One realizes the self by engaging one self immersed in GurBani and Naam.. The pride in physical possessions becomes insipid and meaning less. Having overcome maya and ego the soul attains eternal peace and the fear of death vanishes. For some it is pre ordained and destined to realize Him in inner- self.

It is Gurmukh who realizes that all that is happening as per His Commend and order. Entire creation acts accordingly. Having understood this one attains peace and remains absorbed in Guru’s teachings.

General Observations
We have two set of opinions in regard to Naam and Practices. Some believe in chanting and some do not. Guru Granth sahib ji prescribes methods as to how Naam is to be practiced. The links with Extracts are provided for those who intend to proceed further .

I am providing few links for the kind perusal of those who are interested in further investigation. But Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji provides the final guide.

1. Following link tells us something about Naam.-post by Gogi
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat...-in-sikhi.html

CONCEPT OF NAM IN Sikhi
According to Gurmat (Guru's teaching), before the creation, God lived Absolutely by Himself, Formless. When He made Himself manifest, He first formed Himself into NAM (Divine Name) and then created Nature. After creating Nature, He did not go away from it, rather He sustained His creation with His Own presence into it, and felt delighted.

"Aapinai aap sajio aapinai rachio Nao
Dui kudrat sajiai kar asan ditho chao."
(Asa Mohalla 1- pauri 1, p-463)
"God created Himself and assumed Name
Second besides Himself He created Nature
Seated in Nature He watches with delight what He creates."
(Translation of the above)

NAM (Divine Name) and God are not two different entities. Nam is just another aspect of the Almighty, still Formless. Nam is the total expression of all that God is. Nam sustains everything:

"Nam sustains and controls all beings

Nam supports the universe and its regions."
(Gauri Sukhmani Mohalla 5, 16-5, p-284)

Nam is not expressed as mere noun and it does not mean that there is a special name of God and by enchanting of which, one will meet Him. He is Infinite and can be called with infinite names, but who can count His infinite names? The enlightened and the blessed ones remember Him through His Attributes:

"Tav sarb nam kathai kavan
Karm nam barnat sumat."
(Guru Gobind Singh- Jap Sahib)

God may be called by countless names by the devotees, who create these names according to the attributes of their Godhead, but the first and the foremost name of God is clearly depicted as 'SAT' (Eternal Truth) which shows the ever-existence of God:

"Kirtam nam kathai terei jihba
Satnam tera pra purbla."
(Maru Mohalla 5, p-1083)

The word NAM is a mystic Word used in practical religious life and in discipline of meditation. God is remembered by His attributive names. There is another aspect of it called true Name which emanates from a prophet's personal experience. It emerges from a vision that the Prophet has of the Divine Being. Such a mystic Word in Sikh religion is called 'Waheguru' or Wonderful God or 'Thou art Wonderful'. True Name is not the word by which we describe an object, but the total power, quality and character of Reality. Through the word 'Waheguru' the prophet has tried to sum up mystic power and experience of His presence all around. Prophets have given us Divine Names of the nameless God, which reflect His presence in our consciousness. Contemplation or meditation on true Name (Waheguru) is called practicing the presence of God in one's conscious.

Gurbani is Nam: "Gurmukh bani Nam hai.."
(Sarang ki Var-pauri, p-1239)
Gurbani is Guru: "Bani Guru, Guru hai Bani..."
(Nat Mohalla 4, p-982)
Gurbani is Nirankar:"Wauh wauh bani nirankar hai Tis jiwad avar na koi."
(Slok Mohalla 3, p-515)
'Wauh wauh Bani is the Formless One
There is none as great as He."
(Translation of the above)
Gurbani is every Nad and Ved:
"Sabh nad beid gurbani Man rata sarang pani."
(Ramkli Mohalla 1, p-879)

It is, therefore, Nam that ultimately leads a person to Eternal Bliss. For God consciousness, one must come in contact with Nam, but without Guru one cannot attain Nam and would wander away in the darkness.

2. Post by Roopk
2. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat...n-sikhi-2.html

Sikhism and Monotheism

The article "Naam and Sabad" was published in the journal "Studies In Sikhism and Comparative Religion" a publication of the Guru Nanak Foundation, New Delhi. The author Sardar Daljeet Singh was formerly Secretary to the Government of Punjab, Department of Education. The following are some excerpts:

(i) God in Sikhism is Monotheistic. God is both "Transcendent" and "Immanent" and the world is his Creation.

(ii) The Transcendent God expresed Himself in "Naam" and "Sabad" that created the world.

(iii) "Naam" and "Sabad" are the 'Creative and Dynamic Immanence of God'.

(iv) The Sikh Gurus have clearly emphasized the transcendental character of God by saying that the world was created in time and space and the Transcendental God had been there while the world was uncreated. It is also stated that the "Word" was in God when there was no universe or form. "Naam" was prior to the creation of the universe i.e. "God manifested into Naam, after it the world was created."

(v) In no religious Scripture the distinction between the transcendent and the immanent aspects of God is made more clear than in the Guru Granth because God's Immanence has been given separate names viz. Naam, Will and Word. Evidently, all immanence can be expressed only in relation to the realm of creation i.e. when God's immanence as Naam creates, sustains and controls the world of name and form; when God's immanence as His Will moves and directs the becoming world; when His Immanence as His Word informs and supports the universe. In short, "He (God) is pervading everywhere (Immanent) and yet He is beyond everything, beyond pleasure and pain(Transcendent)."

(vi) Throughout the hymns of Guru Granth, nothing is more significant than acceptance of Creature-Creator relation between man and God. Invariably, God has been addressed as "Thou", "Father", "Mother", "Beloved" etc. Infact, a majority of the hymns are in the form of prayers, addresed to God........So much so that the Guru calls himself as the "lowliest of the low", and never does he mention another person as "That is Thou". The fifth Guru declined to include in the Guru Granth a hymn of Bhagat Kaanhaa, saying, "I am He, O I am the same", because the Guru felt it to be contrary to the Sikh thesis that man is not and cannot be God though he can be His instrument.

3.Post by Amarpal ji.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-y...rstanding.html

4.Nam Japo..sikhi wiki..
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Naam_japo

Naam and Naam Japo or Naam Japna - Is the remembrance of God by repeating and focussing the mind on His name or identity. The names given to God primarily refer to the attributes of the Almighty and His various qualities. The guideline in the Rehit Mariyada of Guru Gobind Singh demands that the Sikh engages in Naam Simran as part of his or her everyday routine………………………….
………………………………
Naam is not mere repetition of God's name. It is opposed to roop ("form") adopted by those indulging in idol worship. Naam here stands for attribute/s. It is a noun which describes the qualities of a person, thing, the Lord. We find many such forms in Mool Mantra. Naam Simran therefore is to concentrate on attributes of Waheguru and realize his grandeur and mercy. It leads to our realization of reality and its acceptance. Guru Granth Sahib further elaborates how realizing God's nature through the recital of his Name leads us to happiness and bliss, rather than being in the wilderness of idol worship or such other meaningless rituals.

5.Satnam

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sat_Naam

Naam | ਨਾਮੁ

Naam literally means, the Name(singular). A fuller definition of the word can only be found within the Guru Granth Sahib itself. Naam is God’s Word, or the Divine Essence. Etymologically, the word has a striking resemblance with the Greek neumena or the Bright Essence as opposed to phenomena. Naam is not merely the ‘Name of God’ as is commonly believed; it symbolizes the Being of God filling all Creation. Naam is also referred to as Shabad in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Where there was no creation, there was nothing in existence – no air, light, water, earth or space. God existed alone in deep meditation and self absorption. When God willed for the manifestations of his values, He created universes, worlds and all material and other living beings by uttering a single Word.

His Word is all pervasive and the sole source of all Creation; the Word created the universes and supports and sustains all things within them. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib further enlightens us that God’s Word turned into waves of light, rays of which are present in all creatures and all other parts of His creation. This is consistent with a fundamental principle of physics that sound vibrations, when increased several fold, change into waves of light.

This Essence / Naam / Shabad / Logus is formless, colorless, and featureless but, as said, is present in all creation. There is no plant, no creature, in what it is not. The Earth and other heavenly bodies exist because there is Naam in this universe and when God withdraws this Naam from this Universe, there are natural calamities (Parloh / Mahaparloh) all over the universe and this is the time that the universe perishes and all the living creatures perish.

Being so, the Essence can’t be seen or visualised by the mind. We can see only the physical dimension of Reality in God’s Creation – mountains, plants, trees, creatures etc. Thus the Outer Shell of Reality holds us (the appearances delude us) and we cannot penetrate deeper to experience the all pervading Reality. The physical dimensions of Reality (the outer shell) is always in flux; it keeps changing. While birth, death, creation, destruction etc. occur in the physical dimensions of creation, the Essence, being Sat (Sat-Naam) never changes, it transcends space and time.

We cannot focus our mind or attention on God, who is Absolute, the invisible Essence. The Naam (SHABD), the Name of God is the only medium available to us for approaching Him.

The term Naam refers to 5 realms / domains / functional groups / aspects / phases of GOD's CREATION. A human being has to pass through first four realms and finally be accountable to GOD in the realm of SachKhand (literally 'TRUE Phase').

SachKhand is perceived to be a realm where GOD seeks account of TRUTHs & Falsities earned by the soul during one's life. Based on this account, GOD rules out disposal of each individual soul for times to come. Truthful souls become part of GOD for ever & never ever get into the cycle of rebirth.

Others not having fared well & having lived life as per their own(& not as per GOD's prewritten commandments which accompanied the soul when it was born as a human being.) will are recycled back to be born again as a 'non human' being.

The soul thereafter stays in the cycle of death & rebirth as per GOD's Scheme of things. GOD willing, he gets born as human being again and the soul gets another chance to fare well this time by staying in harmony with GOD's commandments through the human life span & so on..

TRUE essence of the meaning of Naam can only be realized by believing in & understanding the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. All who get Naam from the 'Shabad Guru' intuitively discard Falsehood & earn the wealth of Naam through one's life time. When we earn Naam, our soul starts responding to it. It is through Naam that we are able to think of Him, remember Him & live life as per His (& not our own )WILL (ie: Manmukh v Gurmukh).

In other words, the Naam is God Himself, subjected to our limited powers of perception and thought and to the capacities of our body and mind. Because we are endowed with the capacity to utter and attentively listen, the continuous recitation of and attentive listening to the Naam (Gurbani) focuses our mind on the object of invocation, resulting in a ceaseless remembrance of God (DHYAAN). This Dhyaan, in turn, results in complete absorption of our consciousness on the thought of God, who responds to our earnest invocation and He reveals Himself in our inner being.

The revelation of the Essence of Reality within us is the revelation of Naam. When the revelation of Naam occurs within, the devotee sees the Essence of God pervading throughout His Creation.

Gurus have taught that their teachings are for all the religion ( varnas )and all have the right to get the teachings of the Gurus.

To Initiate our soul so that it starts towards the ultimate goal (SACHKHAND) a person has to repeatedly and continuously earn the wealth of Naam, and to cherish it in the heart all the time – this is the essence of prayer and devotion to God.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37649

In Gurbani, the word Gurshabad or [[Shabad] is synonymous with Naam. Without ceaselessly earning the wealth of Naam, God cannot be realised.

6. Arm your self with knowledge
http://www.info-sikh.com/PageKnow7.html

First, define Hinduism, there are as many definitions as there are people.
Hinduism like Sikhism says that there is only one God but they have lost sight of this, the deities that the Hindus worship represent various attributes of the one God. God has many attributes, such as the creator, destroyer and the cherisher, however, God in Sikhism is Nirankaar. This means that God is without form. God cannot be reduced to thought as revealed in Japji Sahib. (Sochai Soch na Howi Je Sochi Lakh Waar) God in Sikhism is described as Alakh, indescribable, and Apaar, infinite.
For an experiment, can someone count to infinite? Impossible.
Guru Granth Sahib Ji reveals that many people have tried to find the limits of the infinite Lord but have failed. Therefore, God is described differently in Sikhism as compared to Hinduism. In Sikhism, God's virtues and attributes are infinite and therefore cannot be counted and summed to equal a whole. In Hinduism, the various deities worshipped represent a particular attribute of god, in Sikhism only the whole is worshipped by acknowledging the vastness of God through the revealed Shabad, or the word of God.
This is where the concept of Naam comes in, something which does not exist in Hinduism and as such is a fundamental difference between the two faiths.

In Sikhism Naam is of the utmost importance, without it no liberation of the soul can take place.
What is the concept of Naam in Sikhism:

Naam is a very deep and integral part of Sikh belief. If one reads the English translation of Naam, it says Name. This is true but does not explain Naam completely. This is because Naam is the essence of God, in Sikhism God is Alakh, unfathomable, Apaar, infinite. Naam is not just the Name, but also, truthful living, truthful speaking, seeing the truth in every single being, breathing the truth, eating truth, totally immersed in the truth. In the first line of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it says ‘SatNaam,’ that God's name is Truth.
Naam is also a way of life in Sikhism.
Let's do another experiment/demonstration, describe your mother.
A mother is someone who feeds you when you are hungry (sustainer), comforts you when you are sad (cherisher), protects you from danger and harm (protector). Now, when someone asks us, who is that woman? We say that is my mother. We do not say, that is the lady that protects me, feeds me, cherishes me, etc. The title of "Mother" is very informative and all the qualities associated with the name are understood without explanation.
So it is in Sikhism, the Naam, or the Name is very important. What is that name, SatNaam, the true name. The name is Waheguru, Satnam, Akal Purkh, Kartar, Narain, Nirankar etc. The Name describes the Lord and all the Lord's glorious attributes, infinite in number. Meditation and repartition of the Name brings one closer to the one God and all his attributes. In Sikhism one receives this Naam, from God, or from the Satguru, true guru, the perfect guru or the revealed word of God, Guru Granth Sahib Ji. baani guru, guru hai baani - The word of God is Guru, and Guru is the word of God.

Further investigation would be meaningful if some guidance is provided by Seniors.

tjs

Tejwant Singh · #39 (**permalink**) 27-Nov-2011, 11:01 AM

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Quote:

(The anecdotes you present Tejwant Singh ji are of lazy athletes)

Thanks for being judgemental. Is this part of your parroting routine?

Secondly, the beautiful Shabad you posted has nothing to do with parroting/chanting as you have been advocating like a Mantra.

The Shabad is all about realising, understanding, accepting and putting in practice the Shabad Guru. There is no mystery to it.

You again forgot to share your understanding about this Shabad. I am still waiting for your understanding in your own words about the previous one.

Give it a try or is this your definition of a lazy athlete?

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh · #40 (**permalink**) 27-Nov-2011, 11:07 AM

Taranjeet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Some how I have never been able to read your Punjabi fonts. Would you be kind enough to use

http://www.srigranth.org/ for your Gurbani Shabads?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37649

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

BhagatSingh · #41 (**permalink**) 27-Nov-2011, 16:31 PM

Gurfateh

Tejwant Singh ji,

My judgement was not towards you but the people whom you were talking about. Sleeping duing simran counts as lazy in my books. Athletes who sleep during training are as lazy as they get. Haha I hope you were not snoring with them during training. Though it can be good for the mind to be lazy sometimes.

Quote:

The Shabad is all about realising, understanding, accepting and putting in practice the Shabad Guru. There is no mystery to it.

Yes realizing, understanding and accepting the mystery is putting the Shabad Guru to practice. Now that we have come this far through intellectual pursuits, it is time to move beyond the intellect (not shun it but go above it and master it) so that we can actually put the shabad guru to practice. Because as you know the practice of Shabad guru is directed at emotions and intuition. It is designed to invoke direct way of knowing things, a direct way of knowing the mystery.

Mystery lurks behind everything, Tejwant ji, do not let your guard down. Be alert to it.

I have linked several other shabads as well, in that post and I have been sharing my understanding of that shabad the whole time.

Also there is a difference between parroting and chanting that those shabads talk about. Try to see it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ambarsaria ji,
Yes repeating one word (e.g. waheguru, ram, hari) and keeping my attention on it (sometimes a line from a shabad gets stuck in my head for whatever reason then that becomes the mantr I repeat). As I do that I try to expand my awareness to include not only the sounds and the vibrations in my throat, chest and head but also other sounds and sensations and my visual field if my eyes are open. See the first video below.

I don't really chant anything but I do sing along a shabad expanding and contracting my attention as stated above. It has worked for me, you must try it wholeheartedly and find out whether it works for you.

Be sure to check these shabads out if you haven't already: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questi...tml#post156855

The Reptilean Brain, Skinnerian Training & the Experience of God ~ Shinzen Young - YouTube

Om Mani Padme Hum: Mindful Strategies When Chanting ~ Shinzen Young - YouTube

10 Minute Sit w. Sangha Chanting Om Mani Padme Hum ~ Shinzen Young - YouTube

On listening:

Julian Treasure: 5 ways to listen better - YouTube

Julian Treasure: Shh! Sound health in 8 steps - YouTube

Tejwant Singh · #42 (**permalink**) 28-Nov-2011, 03:10 AM

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

My original post:

Quote:

I remember when I used to visit the Dodra Vaheguru Jatha many moons ago, the importance on Vaheguru Simran was the first and the foremost. There was one hour of loud parroting of Vaheguru at 5 am and then 15 minutes of the silent simran. Once the loud simran stopped, one could hear more than half the sangat, which was in hundreds snoring and this was a daily affair. I am sure snoring during simran does not make anyone mystic.

Your response:

Quote:

Haha I hope you were not snoring with them during training. Though it can be good for the mind to be lazy sometimes.

Let me take your words for that. However, if I were snoring, then the commonsense would indicate, I would not find out about others who were. But, anyway, let's move on. The reason I left this practice of parroting/ chanting many years ago because it did not enrich me as a Sikh.

Quote:

My judgement was not towards you but the people whom you were talking about. Sleeping duing simran counts as lazy in my books. Athletes who sleep during training are as lazy as they get.

How did you come to the conclusion that they were lazy? It may also show that this practice is boring and not fruitful to say the least for a Sikh,hence the snoring.

My quote:

The Shabad is all about realising, understanding, accepting and putting in practice the Shabad Guru. There is no mystery to it.

Your response:

Quote:

Yes realizing, understanding and accepting the mystery is putting the Shabad Guru to practice.

Once one accepts Gurbani as mystery, then Sikhi becomes one more blind ritualistic faith with the blinders on and that is what our Gurus teach us not to become in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Quote:

Now that we have come this far through intellectual pursuits, it is time to move beyond the intellect (not shun it but go above it and master it) so that we can actually put the shabad guru to practice. Because as you know the practice of Shabad guru is directed at emotions and intuition. It is designed to invoke direct way of knowing things, a direct way of knowing the mystery.

It is just your opinion. Nothing more. It also goes against what our Gurus teach us in Gurbani.

Gurbani uses many words for us to use our intellect like Dyan, Sambhaal, Mann Rakhieyei bhao, Surat; to state a few.

Quote:

Mystery lurks behind everything, Tejwant ji, do not let your guard down. Be alert to it.

Bhagat Singh ji, once again your personal opinion, not based on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

Quote:

I have linked several other shabads as well, in that post and I have been sharing my understanding of that shabad the whole time.

Not the two I requested you for in particular.

Quote:

Also there is a difference between parroting and chanting that those shabads talk about. Try to see it.

Please explain the difference using Gurbani as reference words and what are their benefits to become a better Sikh?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Navdeep88 · #43 (**permalink**) 28-Nov-2011, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambarsaria

Hence I tend to perhaps little more on understanding before such as chanting. So when I see people chanting in Gurdwaras like "Waheguru Waheguru .........." I feel bewildered as to whether it is the sheep following the guide, copy analogy to yawning by unconsciously seeing others yawn, etc., without having an understanding. Perhaps it is people just want to rinse their mind by closing eyes and getting out of breath or hyper-ventilating. If it is enlightenment I will never get it. But then again it is quite possible I am missing something.

Sat Sri Akal.

Ambarsaria Ji,

What about children? As kids whether your learning path from classes or your parents... you don't understand it... yes you get literal translations, and your parents tell you its good and out of your trust for them, you follow. You follow blindly and do the act of doing path, simran, seva etc. And you see that it makes them happy. Their approval in turn makes you happy.

Perhaps it begins with the act itself, whether its intentional or not, whether we have understanding of it or not. Perhaps the acts of simran, seva etc. itself has greater weight than the person performing it. Maybe THAT rubs off on us, influences us...

BhagatSingh · #44 (**permalink**) 28-Nov-2011, 05:12 AM

Guru Fateh

Tejwant Singh ji,

Quote:

How did you come to the conclusion that they were lazy? It may also show that this practice is boring and not fruitful to say the least for a Sikh,hence the snoring.

Yes the practice is boring only if the Sikh does not connect to God through it, that is, unless the Sikh comes out of the duality of seeing things as interesting and boring, the practice will remain boring. The lazy will not have the drive to go through something as boring as Naam Jaap. Not everyone can become Tiger Woods' equivalent in this field, only those who put 10,000+ hours in training make it through.

If the practice is not for you then it's not for you, move on... or you might have just given up too early.

Quote:

Once one accepts Gurbani as mystery, then Sikhi becomes one more blind ritualistic faith with the blinders on and that is what our Gurus teach us not to become in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I am not talking about Gurbani as mystery specifically, I am talking about the whole universe as mystery. The mystery that is present underneath what we think we have understood or grasped about the nature of our universe. At the heart of the universe, we find the mystery and to see the mystery is to see God.

To accept the mystery actually lifts off the blinders, since in order to accept you first need to open your eyes and witness it. Most people have not witnessed it and thus cannot accept it. Accepting is an active effort not one where you give up. No. Accepting is to actively embrace that which is being witnessed.

Quote:

Gurbani uses many words for us to use our intellect like Dyan, Sambhaal, Mann Rakhieyei bhao, Surat; to state a few.

All of these have to do with what I am talking about. They all related to emotions and intuition, not intellect (see my definition of intellect in previous posts). All are involved in chanting and not parroting:
Dhyan and surat and sabhaal all mean concentration, meditation, contemplation, etc (these words mean the same thing) --> leads to direct perception of God (darsan)
Man rakhieo bhau = let the mind be filled with love --> appeal to emotions --> leads to direct perception of God when doing Bhagati, that is, Naam jaap with love and devotion.
Also see the shabads I posted on the Akhand Paath thread.

Quote:

Not the two I requested you for in particular.

Which two shabads do you want me to comment on?

Tejwant Singh · #45 (**permalink**) 28-Nov-2011, 06:12 AM

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Quote:

Yes the practice is boring only if the Sikh does not connect to God through it, that is, unless the Sikh comes out of the duality of seeing things as interesting and boring, the practice will remain boring. The lazy will not have the drive to go through something as boring as Naam Jaap. Not everyone can become Tiger Woods, only those who put 10,000+ hours in training make it through.

Can you please quote Gurbani to prove what you said above or is it just your own opinion laced with a tinge of arrogance?

Are you claiming that Tiger Woods does not practice anymore? Is that the reason he is number 50th in the world and has not won a tournament for a long time? Or does he practice as before? But the fact is that he is still not successful. What do you think attributes to that? Here you have contradicted yourself about the success of practice. But that is not the point. Spirituality is not a golf game where practicing putting ballls in a hole avoids one making bogeys in life, especially when the practice is mere parroting/chanting some magical words for 10,000+hours.

Quote:

If the practice is not for you then it's not for you, move on... or you might have just given up too early.

Once again you are being judgemental.

. Parroting any word for hours is practicing in vain. It has nothing to do with Gurmat values given to us by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,our only Guru. But you keep on insisting on it.

Quote:

I am not talking about Gurbani as mystery specifically, I am talking about the whole universe as mystery. The mystery that is present underneath what we think we have understood or grasped about the nature of our universe. At the heart of the universe, we find the mystery and to see the mystery is to see God.

Yes, you were. We were talking about Shabad Guru in particular, not about the Universe.

Your quote:

Quote:

Yes realizing, understanding and accepting the mystery is putting the Shabad Guru to practice.

Quote:

To accept the mystery actually lifts off the blinders, since in order to accept you first need to open your eyes and witness it. Most people have not witnessed it and thus cannot accept it. Accepting is an active effort not one where you give up. No. Accepting is to actively embrace that which is being witnessed.

If one witnesses something, it ceases to be a mystery. Then acceptance becomes the fact. There is no mystery left.

The rest of your post is a bit confusing because what one does not know, one can not accept. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji helps us to know and grasp the wow and the awe factors that surround us.

If you accept something as a mystery, then you are putting the blinders on and making Sikhi into one more ritualistic blind faith. Perhaps that is why you insist on parroting/chanting.

Quote:

All of these have to do with what I am talking about. They all related to emotions and intuition, not intellect (see my definition of intellect in previous posts).

Please quote Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to prove the above, otherwise they just become your opinions based on your emotions.

Quote:

All are involved in chanting and not parroting:

What is the difference between the two as asked before?

Quote:

Dhyan and surat and sabhaal all mean concentration, meditation, contemplation, etc (these words mean the same thing)

Agreed. Hence, they have nothing to do with emotions or intuitions as you claimed before.

Quote:

--> leads to direct perception of God (darsan)

What do you mean by the above. Darshan of a deity? a person? a being? All of which are anti Sikhi. Please quote Gurbani to prove your point or is just one more opinion of yours?

Quote:

Man rakhieo bhau = let the mind be filled with love --> appeal to emotions -->

I disagree. Mann rakheio bhao means understanding, accepting and practicing Shabad Guru in one's life to make it better and help others to make their's. Gurbani is showing us how to be a practical, practicing Sikh. It is as straight forward as that. Emotions have nothing to do with it. It is way past the emotional stage.

Quote:

leads to direct perception of God when doing Bhagati, that is, Naam jaap with love and devotion.

Are you again talking about parroting/chanting in the above? Please elaborate.

What do you mean by,"leads to direct perception of God"?

Yes. Living a life of Miri-Piri does require devotion. Any profession requires that. Household life requires that. Sikhi can only be practiced by devoting one's energy into whatever one is doing to get better.

Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent. Omnipresence IS, hence no perception needed. Facts do not require any perceptions nor any other imaginary things.

Quote:

Which two shabads do you want me to comment on?

The two Shabads you posted in this thread.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh