Sikhism and Sex

Originally Posted by harry haller

spji,

What is a marriage?

Marriage (or wedlock) is a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship. It is an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually intimate and sexual, are acknowledged in a variety of ways, depending on the culture or subculture in which it is found. Such a union, often formalized via a wedding ceremony, may also be called matrimony.

Although I refer to my wife and my marriage, neither is strictly true, she is my wife because I am commited to her and we are in a social union, my marriage took place the day we swore our love for each other and promised to be faithful to each other in mind and body, but that day took place on Brighton seafront 7 years ago, and the only witnesses were 3 seagulls and a hermit crab, one day I hope to have Anand Karaj, but till then, my understanding of the word marriage is the union I have with my wife

I do not believe in ritual, Anand Karaj , to me has to be understood and embraced by us both before we could consider aspiring to those heights, but I digress

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh,

Well said.

However, what you have said is exactly what our Guru Sahib says in the the Four Lavans.

Here it is, go through them and trust your innerself rather than the literal translations.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gur...&k=0&Param=773

There is also an old thread here on SPN about Lavan which you will enjoy.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/histor...nth-sahib.html

Enjoy this journey.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Originally Posted by harry haller

I have read both threads and they were very interesting, it appears to me that those who have been married in sikh temples, and those who have been present, have truly been part of something beautiful, but most have been completely unaware of just how beautiful. It would truly be a shame not to have full understanding of just what is being sung and said and understand exactly what Anand Karaj means, on the one hand, I am sad that my current union is 'unblessed' in this manner, on the other hand, I am glad I will wait until we can both appreciate the majestic meaning that these words give to a 'ceremony' and thats what makes it beyond ritual.

Originally Posted by harry haller

What wonderful reading, so many points of view, in my personal opinion, everyone is correct,

Sikhism, again in my view, is not a hard and fast rule book of things you should and should not do, I think we will find the answer in the centre.

There is one line of thought that believes that certain things are bad in excess, and that one thing will lead to another, and before you know it, we are responsible for blessing young people having sex outside of marriage

There is another line of thought that believes we are all intelligent human beings and WE are responsible for our decisions, not society, it is the balance between a nanny state and anarchy. Both are clearly not desirable for the continued development of a person, the nanny state brings control through fear and guilt, anarchy puts too much on an individual, rather like a lucid dream, some people need fear and guilt, some need others to make the decision for them, some will always make the right decision regardless of personal feelings, some will submit themselves to their thoughts without even thinking, so we are all of us different, and we all approach life in different ways.

Now, lets us take religion out of this for a moment, as, having read Gyanijis post, and Ambersariaji's post, I would take the gluttony to be the issue, not the sex.

Let us take a look at the question again, and I am really sorry Amanji, I promise I will learn how to do this properly very soon,

WJKK WJKF,

I am a 22 year old sardar, with a dari and phug. I have never drank or smoked. The reason I do not engage in these things, is because they are harmful to the user and to others.


However, my question is about pre-marital sex. I have not engaged in it, however I do not see the problem in doing so if it is a) done smartly/safely b) does not become an obsession.


WHY it is considered "wrong" ? Alcohol, drugs, and treating others poorly - all are against Sikhi, because they do do harm to either the user or others.

But what does sex do?


Thank you.

Note this young man does not say, I do not drink or do drugs or cut my hair because I am forbidden by sikhi, he says he does not do it because they harm the user or others, very well done for getting the message of sikhi, not to blindly follow without understanding, but to take actions because you have completely understood the message, being in consonance, so I would take it that this is quite an intelligent young man, who wants to know why sex is bad, who it affects, why should he not do it

I do not think the question actually has anything to do with sikhi, it is a young man following the ideals of sikhi asking whether premarital sex harms the user or others, if you are in a loving relationship with someone, you care for each other, your feelings are pure, and forgetting the social problems of young sikhs having sex for a moment, then there is nothing in my view wrong with that, if however you wish to go clubbing, internet dating, whoring, and end up in bed with someone you hardly know, and have no feelings for, other than basic animal lust, then , yes you can harm yourself and others, either through an STD, emotionally, unwanted pregnancy, or feelings of shame

The social factors bring into play many many more issues, the way your parents would feel, how it could affect your future marriage prospects, how it could affect not only your family but your own standing in the community, it is for you to make an informed decision to as to what path you wish to proceed down, what seeds you wish to plant, whether those seeds are being true to you, and to which part of you, you wish to push forward as the true you, if 'you' is a man in balance who feels he can have sex before marriage and still feel completely sikhi, no problem, if 'you' is a man who feels he would be more in consonance and more true to himself by waiting, no problem, I think this is a very individual issue, clearly by the many different views on the subject.

However, we must be very careful of using fear and guilt as control, let us make the facts clear and hope the young make the correct decisions that will subject them neither to a life of Gluttony, nor a life of abstinence and frustration

Originally Posted by harry haller

Brother

Sometimes I wish I had spent more time on the fence, sitting on the fence is better than making a wrong decision, sit on the fence, watch the world, learn, you seem intelligent enough to know when the time is right, no one else call tell when that time is, maturity is trusting in yourself,

Originally Posted by Ambarsaria

Souljyot ji some comment,

I very humbly and strongly disagree with the tone and dictates in the above.

Let us remember that in Sikhism,

• SIN is not a recognized concept
• There is no concept of a SIN free life

In Sikhism the so called five thieves (Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh, Ahankar/Lust, Anger, Ego, Attachment, Pride) are not classified as one more wrong than another. Now show me a Sikh who has eliminated all and never exercises any one of these at least once a day, I will kiss his/her feet. If one were to classify any transgression in any of these as a sin, all of us would be so laden with sins on our back that living will not be possible.

For a list of people with voluntary honest expression, who don't have total control of one or more of the above five (including Kam/Lust) so called transgressors (but classified as Sinners per Souljyot's jis post), see the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/genera...fects-you.html

None of the sins are so wrong that you create a guilt feeling for life. This sin approach is the mechanism of controlling people and is extremely foreign no Sikhism for a reason. Sikhism does not classify Sikhs as sinners. Sikhism does not let the manipulators manage or exploit Sikhs because they have so called sinned. This is exploited by many a bad parchariks/Sant/Babeys. A very sad thing in the name of Sikhism.

We are in-charge of managing (Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh, Ahankar/Lust, Anger, Ego, Attachment, Pride) and no body has a right to judge other than one self. Of course we want to continue improve and find balance, any help sought and help given is OK.

We all need to talk with honesty and less of double speak so that the younger generation listens and feels free to ask.

Any comments or corrections appreciated.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Learner55 veer ji my answer I repeat to the following,. Nope.

But I recognize that you may be asking others more than me. It is a transgression of Kam/Lust and it is a personal decision that you should make in terms of benefit, gain or loss. There is no Sin.