When all other means have failed, it is but Lawful to take to the Sword

spnadmin · #37 (**permalink**) 23-Sep-2011, 10:49 AM

Miri Piri has already been mentioned in this and related threads.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/36909-when-all-other-means-have-failed.html

The idea that Sikhs are somehow reconstituted Hindus is intolerant to many but not all Sikhs. At SPN it is considered a no go. And that is pretty much the position of all the mods and admin. Let's keep this in mind. So far moderation of these statements has been fairly lenient. Reactions from admin, mods and other members has been to point out errors by giving counter arguments. However, status may change.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36909

Let's try to be more civilized in our speech as well so that I do not have to start in line editing.

Thank you

harry haller · #38 (**permalink**) 23-Sep-2011, 15:24 PM

I have no objection at all to this thread being used to discuss a variety of topics, subject to SPNadminji, as they tend to be all interlinked anyway. In Hinduism, you have a warrior class, I understand, whose job is to make war, a priestly class, whose job is make prayer, a ruling class, etc etc etc,. This actually sits extremely well with my argument, and also SPNadminji's very kind nudge regarding extremes of behaviour.

All my life, I have had to put up with being something, or something else, clown, wolf, man, khalsa, this forum achieved something for me that no therapist, or anti depressant had managed to do, it made me realise I was just me, all the time, but with different extremes, and that sat pretty well, my wife had become used to me being one extreme or another, if I was hungry, all I would do is go home and eat, and I would eat till I fell asleep, if I wanted to take the dogs for a walk, we would go on 4 mile treks, and that is all we would do, my behaviour is very like the Hindu classes, each distinct and separate from the others, to be a circle, and not a line, to be devoid of balance, and be everything at the same time is what sikhism is all about to me, otherwise you are fragmented as a person and not able to realise the warrior, the poet, the saint, the lover, in you to full potential.

So, If there was one reason I would say sikhs are not Hindus, it would be that we strive to be soldier and saint, to be miri and piri, all at the same time, in fact, we must be all at the same time, for a soldier without the saint, and a saint without the soldier, would make us single minded, small minded people. I am not suggesting Hindus are, this is not about what Hindus are, within Hinduism, there is a road for everyone to find enlightenment, no matter what your place in earth is, (ok maybe not for untouchables, but then I do not know enough about Hinduism), this is about Sikhs, and how to act like a sikh, which from what I know and understand seems to be quite unique

Satyaban · #39 (**permalink**) 24-Sep-2011, 13:53 PM

Harry ji

"In Hinduism, you have a warrior class, I understand, whose job is to make war, a priestly class, whose job is make prayer, a ruling class, etc etc etc,. This actually sits extremely well with my argument, and also SPNadminji's very kind nudge regarding extremes of behaviour."

You are talking about a system called Varna and back in antiquity it was a big part of how a village functioned. The idea was that each individual used his talent to serve the community not doing what he wanted to do. A totally Eastern concept as opposed to individualism. I think the system eventually was perverted possibly into the caste system. It became more a case of what you were born into as opposed to talents. The son of the ruler became ruler by birth, and sons of Priests became Priests etc etc.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36909
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36909

I am sure there are members who may know more about this than me.

Tejwant Singh · #40 (**permalink**) 25-Sep-2011, 00:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satyaban

Harry ji

"In Hinduism, you have a warrior class, I understand, whose job is to make war, a priestly class, whose job is make prayer, a ruling class, etc etc etc,. This actually sits extremely well with my argument, and also SPNadminji's very kind nudge regarding extremes of behaviour."

You are talking about a system called Varna and back in antiquity it was a big part of how a village functioned. The idea was that each individual used his talent to serve the community not doing what he wanted to do. A totally Eastern concept as opposed to individualism. I think the system eventually was perverted possibly into the caste system. It became more a case of what you were born into as opposed to talents. The son of the ruler became ruler by birth, and sons of Priests became Priests etc etc.

I am sure there are members who may know more about this than me.

Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are right in your observation but can you also see the pitfalls in this kind of religion?

The system was not perverted but abused by those in the religion who gained power unto others which was the whole intention of it to begin with. This apartheid was meant to be as it was originally designed and unfortunately it is still very prevalent, which is sad.

A religion is meant to help people evolve in a positive sense so that goodness can become prevalent in all. Unfortunately, Hinduism has failed to do that, to the contrary.

One more interesting thing to notice is that a Punjabi Hindu would rarely marry a Southern Hindu for example or vice versa.

You being a convert to Hinduism is not able to see how the majority lives and treats others. It is like no one notices what is underneath the Manhattan-New York. One can only see and admire the pristine skyscrapers on the top.

Tejwant Singh

Satyaban · #41 (**permalink**) 25-Sep-2011, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh

Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are right in your observation but can you also see the pitfalls in this kind of religion?

The system was not perverted but abused by those in the religion who gained power unto others which was the whole intention of it to begin with. This apartheid was meant to be as it was originally designed and unfortunately it is still very prevalent, which is sad.

A religion is meant to help people evolve in a positive sense so that goodness can become prevalent in all. Unfortunately, Hinduism has failed to do that, to the contrary.

One more interesting thing to notice is that a Punjabi Hindu would rarely marry a Southern Hindu for example or vice versa.

You being a convert to Hinduism is not able to see how the majority lives and treats others. It is like no one notices what is underneath the Manhattan-New York. One can only see and admire the pristine skyscrapers on the top.

Tejwant Singh

I am not going to get into some useless religious argument. No doubt you are like a Christian or Muslim who mistakenly believe their faith has an exclusivity of The Truth. Take your grudge to a Hindu web site.
I don't come here to argue with Sikhs but when I encounter you I wonder why I come here at all.
BTW your comparison with viewing New York is how I choose to view Sikhi.

thinkforyourself · #42 (**permalink**) 25-Sep-2011, 05:45 AM

Yes. Metaphorically speaking, in everyday life. I am normally a very placid person also, but there is a limit, and no one wants to be a doormat. A sharp word or curt reply would be in order.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36909
In matters of self defense, such as war, etc. definitely so. Even if you are peaceful, you have to be a realist, and realize everyone in the world isn't. You may wish it to be true, but wishing it isn't reality. Sad but true. Too much passivity gets you stepped on.

Ambarsaria · #43 (**permalink**) 25-Sep-2011, 07:04 AM

Satyaban ji just some comments on your post,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satyaban

Harry ji

"In Hinduism, you have a warrior class, I understand, whose job is to make war, a priestly class, whose job is make prayer, a ruling class, etc etc etc,. This actually sits extremely well with my argument, and also SPNadminji's very kind nudge regarding extremes of behaviour."
Satyaban ji isn't this a form of discrimination when people get boxed by birth? How can it ever pass the test of fairness of equity of all to be born free and clear?

You are talking about a system called Varna and back in antiquity it was a big part of how a village functioned. The idea was that each individual used his talent to serve the community not doing what he wanted to do. A totally Eastern concept as opposed to individualism.

I think the system eventually was perverted possibly into the caste system. It became more a case of what you were born into as opposed to talents. The son of the ruler became ruler by birth, and sons of Priests became Priests etc etc.
Isn't the perversion you are stating here been an actuality for hundreds if not 1000+ years and still practices or tolerated under the Brahmanic rule and management of Hinduism?

Isn't the fundamental reason that there is perversion a flag which states that the original concept or belief has little strength of virtue to start with?

I am sure there are members who may know more about this than me.

I believe we should move part of this thread into "Interfaith" section as we are going on a tangent a bit.

Sat Sri Akal.

Tejwant Singh · #44 (**permalink**) 25-Sep-2011, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satyaban

I am not going to get into some useless religious argument. No doubt you are like a Christian or Muslim who mistakenly believe their faith has an exclusivity of The Truth. Take your grudge to a Hindu web site.
I don't come here to argue with Sikhs but when I encounter you I wonder why I come here at all.
BTW your comparison with viewing New York is how I choose to view Sikhi.

Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea why you are so angry and upset. I apologise if my explanation of what Hinduism, the religion you adhere to is so upsetting. It should be because it is the fact. Where did "Om Shanti Om", the meaning of which I am sure you know go?

Now, let's try to be honest here. In which line of my this post or other posts did I ever mention Sikhi has the exclusivity on the truth? I have always advocated the opposite. Where did I show grudge against Hinduism? I hope you are truthful enough to answer these questions.

Next time please try to be honest, no matter what religion you adhere to. If you want to deny the fact of the existence of caste system which is still very prevalent in Hinduism and it is the worst kind of apartheid ever existed, then, please do not blame others for that.

A seeker of Truth, no matter what hue, creed or faith he/she belongs to will never deny that and any religion one belongs to gives him/her the tools to get rid of the anger,hatred and disdain provided he/she is honest to the self.

Enjoy your journey.

Tejwant Singh

Satyaban · #45 (**permalink**) 25-Sep-2011, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh

Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea why you are so angry and upset. I apologise if my explanation of what Hinduism, the religion you adhere to is so upsetting. It should be because it is the fact. Where did "Om Shanti Om", the meaning of which I am sure you know go?

Now, let's try to be honest here. In which line of my this post or other posts did I ever mention Sikhi has the exclusivity on the truth? I have always advocated the opposite. Where did I show grudge against Hinduism? I hope you are truthful enough to answer these questions.

Next time please try to be honest, no matter what religion you adhere to. If you want to deny the fact of the existence of caste system which is still very prevalent in Hinduism and it is the worst kind of apartheid ever existed, then, please do not blame others for that.

A seeker of Truth, no matter what hue, creed or faith he/she belongs to will never deny that and any religion one belongs to gives him/her the tools to get rid of the anger,hatred and disdain provided he/she is honest to the self.

Enjoy your journey.

Tejwant Singh

Forget your "angry and upset ploy". I prefer to have conversations where something good can come of them and from prior experience that dosen't happen with you.