One Drink Too Many? A Discussion of Alcohol and Sikhi

Ambarsaria · #37 (**permalink**) 18-Jul-2011, 02:11 AM

findingmyway ji I think you are perhaps making more out of their replies than they mean. At least for myself I will calrify by annotating appropriate parts of your post below,

Quote:

Originally Posted by findingmyway

The drinkers on the thread seem to enjoy wilfully (I don't willfully) misunderstanding me ot perhaps it is my fault for not expressing myself as well as I should. I do not project my expectations of others but simply state what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says (Let us say what Sikh Rehat Maryada says). Most of my family and friends are drinkers and I have never told them to stop. However, I have respect for my family members who drink as they are honest and courageous enough to admit that drinking is not allowed in Sikhi but they want to do it anyway (I believe that is what so called drinkers or like who do not take it as seriously are stating. These are not Alcoholics trying to find a drink at the first instance that they can find it.). They do not try and rationalise it. (I did not rationalize but stated what I feel) There are a lot of things I do wrong too but I can also admit I am in the wrong according to Gurbani without forcing others to approve of me and what I do.

It is not about dictating do this and do that but about taking responsibility for one's own actions and being honest to yourself. (People taking an occasional drink cannot be classified dis-honest just for that action. When someone drinks they are not calling it Orange juice [IMG]file:///C:/Users/JB/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.jpg[/IMG]. I have seen Vodka with orange juice as quite popular with some ladies in parties)) It is about understanding Gurbani and not changing the meaning to make oneself feel better ( Idon't change .

I personally see alcohol as a bigger hindrance than not keeping kesh. (Now this perhaps is a bit of a stretch and I will not understand it. I think it is the other way around.) However, as I said earlier I have more respect for someone who is honest about what they are doing, why and how it fits in with what we are taught by our Guru's.

I never said that a person loses spirituality by default from drinking. However, due to the physiological effect of alcohol and other drugs, it can act as a hindrance to spirituality, at least while partaking in consuming the substance. Yes lots of other things also act as a hindrance but that doesn't mean we can ignore any of them. What a person does with that information is up to them. However, on a Sikh discussion forum I will keep stating what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says on this issue in a non-judgemental way.
(Please quote a complete shabad as this will be very good to review.)

Comraderie and chilling out can be achieved with the same people, same atmosphere with a soft drink in the glass. (see this is what I warned about in my post. This is how people may mis-understand you. For a person who is drinking anything in a glass is a soft drink except what others may want to call it. Yes this drink has alcohol in it.) No-one is staying teetollalers have to be complete stick in the muds! If you can't even conceive giving up anything then that is an addiction!

I repeat, I am not saying you must give up alcohol. However, I am saying Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is clear on this issue so the choice is yours. Knowing and following are 2 different things.

The above is in the essence of a dialog, not to justify drinking or encouraging, and neither to classify people as though if you drink you are bad and if you don’t drink you are good. Good and bad is lot deeper than such.

Sat Sri Akal.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #38 (**permalink**) 18-Jul-2011, 02:27 AM

Dear Veera

Sorry you had to debate against the mighty 'Way' yourself,I was a bit busy with my CV.

I myself think it is not good or bad as a substance,the abuse of it is wrong.
Just as the love of money is the root of all evil and not money.

I drink not because it is good but because I prefer to drink a little wine with my bread.
I don't like soft drinks full of sugar or artificial sweetner but I do like Ginger beer .
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/36187-one-drink-too-many-discussion-alcohol.html
Any way who cares what we drink, you know what it all ends up as !

findingmyway · #39 (**permalink**) 18-Jul-2011, 02:36 AM

Ambarsaria ji,
I have never said people who drink are good or bad but the act of drinking is destructive and to date no-one has given me a positive of it that cannot be achieved by other ways. You keep insisting I am calling drinkers bad and that is wilfully misunderstanding me. It is the substance that is bad due to its effects on the body and mind (even in small doses).

Gurbani is eternal, the SRM can change. Gurbani states alcohol and other intoxicants cannot be consumed. I have delved into this extensively previously so please go back and check the other threads. Having said that even the SRM states alcohol should not be consumed, as you have stated in a previous post.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

Using what happens in society is muddying the waters as a way of getting acceptance for drink. Guru Nanak Ji did not do this but used philosophy to determine beliefs. Alcohol affects the brain and this is the rationale for it being mentioned in Gurbani along wioth other drugs. In the modern wrold, alcohol has been legalised so most people don't (or won't) realise it is a drug, an intoxicant even in small amounts.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

I do not understand the comment about soft drink. By definition a soft drink is one which does not contain alcohol so your comment makes no sense. I still do not understand why the insistence on accepting alcohol? Maybe we should all stick to plain old water!

I am currently working 7days/wk so won't be logging in for some time so you have plenty of opportunities to twist my words and paint me as judgmental even though that is not what I am saying.

Ambarsaria · #40 (**permalink**) 18-Jul-2011, 02:41 AM

findingmywayji I have no plans to respond to your posts on this subject further.

I respect your many other contributions and one difference is not worth wasting all that for. I generally greatly appreciate and like your write-ups.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

Sat Sri Akal.

texassikhstudent · #41 (**permalink**) 18-Jul-2011, 06:22 AM

As a twenty year old college student, I have witnessed all kinds of drinking habits. The problem with alcohol is acknowledging your limitations. Most college students drink for the sole purpose of getting drunk. Others drink to fit in. These students often become so intoxicated that they perform unwise actions. Some are so held by the drink that it becomes a major deterrent from school work, and leads to dropping out of college. I have seen close friends fall into this trap. I have on the other hand, met college students who drink for the "'drinks sake." These students are more akin to cheese connoisseurs, and drink very little, very infrequently, and only for flavors. I think that removing all alcoholic beverages is important for most people, who are easily led to intoxication. In small amounts alcohol has as little of an effect as the caffeine in a soda has. Perhaps it is OK for someone to drink in small amounts, if the have the fortitude to drink very little.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

I drank occasionally over the last two years, usually with 2-4 month breaks between a single drink. I haven't drank in about six months and don't really have a need for it in the future. I can see myself living without alcohol as I come closer to taking Amrit, but I hope my experiences in modern college culture prove insightful for all!

harry haller · #42 (**permalink**) 19-Jul-2011, 13:17 PM

Having read back a few pages, and absorbed all arguments, it is clear that everyone has a valid point.

Should we as sikhs drink? well, no, according to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we should not.
Is there anything wrong with a sikh drinking? now that is the million dollar question, in the eyes of the guru, yes, but the guru gave us free will, although in the past I have put drinking on a par with lust/anger, I think it is more related to body piercing in terms of deviation from Gurmukh, I think the answer is between us as individuals and the guru.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

Should we play down the huge culture of drinking in sikhism and try and educate our young to stay away from it, possibly, but that would make some of us hypocrites. we could all agree publicly that drinking is a bad thing, for the sake of the kids, and carry on in private.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

I would be most interested to know if the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji makes any comment about the addictive natures of alcohol, or is it just the intoxicating effects. I am aware that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji mentions addictions, but I am talking about alcohol addiction in particular, as it is the addiction that seems to be the biggest concern among our community.

Ambarsaria · #43 (**permalink**) 20-Jul-2011, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Having read back a few pages, and absorbed all arguments, it is clear that everyone has a valid point.

Should we as sikhs drink? well, no, according to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we should not.
Is there anything wrong with a sikh drinking? now that is the million dollar question, in the eyes of the guru, yes, but the guru gave us free will, although in the past I have put drinking on a par with lust/anger, I think it is more related to body piercing in terms of deviation from Gurmukh, I think the answer is between us as individuals and the guru.

Should we play down the huge culture of drinking in sikhism and try and educate our young to stay away from it, possibly, but that would make some of us hypocrites. we could all agree publicly that drinking is a bad thing, for the sake of the kids, and carry on in private.

I would be most interested to know if the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji makes any comment about the addictive natures of alcohol, or is it just the intoxicating effects. I am aware that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji mentions addictions, but I am talking about alcohol addiction in particular, as it is the addiction that seems to be the biggest concern among our community.

Harry Haller ji I did search for Alcohol but there are lot of symbolic references to effects of wine or to drink the nectar of understanding rather than be imbued by wine.

So put the word wine in the following and search,

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gur...&Param=english

There is generic reference to addiction my belief is it has lot more to do with opium.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gur...d=50854#l50854

It is only in SRM as "violation of a rehat" in reference to addiction.

I was shocked that for a document like SRM there is reference to "Cocaine" addiction! Still as "rehat violations" and not "Kurehaets".

Sat Sri Akal.

harry haller · #44 (**permalink**) 20-Jul-2011, 14:04 PM

Maybe what we should be debating are the people that encourage others to drink by the copious amounts of alcohol on display at most sikh weddings. That is what we are known for, above anything, 'boy can you guys drink'. But isnt it strange that where you have a wedding with no drink, its not just the drink that is absent, its also the huge luxury cars, the ostentatious dress, the need to have everyone saying balleh balleh, the langar is simpler but much more tasty, and everyone realises that they are there for a ceremony to celebrate something, as opposed to a non ending peacock parade.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

I think we should focus on the image of drinkers that sikhs have ,before we start pointing the finger at those whose energies would be best spent finding the creator, rather than trying to control a social pleasure that does not terminate in intoxication.