Correct Pronunciation of Waheguru

prakash.s.bagga · #64 (**permalink**) 18-May-2012, 13:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh

PSbagga ji..
Are you not an experienced pathi ?? I thought you are the most experienced if ever there was one..do keep teaching the less experienced ones..

You have really bolded me out thru your wordings and I am only a little Das/Sewak of GuRu Nanak least I should feel elated.May Sati GuRu help me. We all can learn by understanding our GuRu only.We as Sudents can only share and respect the messages of our GuRu.
Giyani Ji,I fully understand the difficulty in pronunciation of the vowels related to matra of Aukad and Sihari.My Teacher for Gurmkhi was also Giyani Santokh Singh ji Now I recollect some of his words in this connection.
Nevertheless we should not make Gurbanee a running matter where the basic essence of Gurbanee message of Gurbanee is getting confused.How to ensure this? My concern is more for this aspect.
If we can ensure correct interpretation of Gurbanee words without giving any significance to pronunciation, this is also wecome.But this seems to be most difficult.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Khalistani_lion · #65 (**permalink**) 18-May-2012, 15:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh

A very long time ago...when a Telegraph was the only way to convey a message..every GRAMATICAL INDACATOR was SPELT OUT. Example..I still have the Telegraph that I received form the Uni informing me about my admission. It reads..

Dear Mister Jarnail COMMA Your admission approved STOP Please arrange to make necessary payment STOP Also arrange to bring along the following personal items - bedding COMMA bedspread COMMA comforter COMMA as these are not provided in the hostel STOP Please note that attendance at University is required to pay all fees et cetera STOP

Today that same message would be..Dear Mr. jarnail, Your admission approved.

1. The WORDS COMMA, STOP in the 1960's Telegraphic Message are NOT to be "PRONOUNCED"..they are Grammar Markers and Today we DONT NEED to write them out in FULL becasue we cna just use the ,.,.,. etc. mr. dr. .

2. No English teacher will instruct his students..DONT go around "Pronouncing" the Full stops, commas, inverted commas...as this is understood they are Grammar markers and NOT words.

Gurbani merely uses some lagaan esp aunkadds and siharees as GRAMMAR MARKERS. These are NOT to be pronounced. Prof sahib Singhs Grammar thesis shows which words have pronouncable aunkadds and which dont. In addition Gurbani is poetry..very tightly composed unlike prose which can be very long and winding with everything spelt out in full...and Gurbani has its own special grammar which substitutes lagaan such as aunkad and siharee to indicate grammar, nouns, singular, plural etc. Other Things like COMMAS dont exist in Gurbani and as such a Learner has to LEARN from an experienced Paathi exactly where to PAUSE..stop.short or stop long etc.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

Of course markers are not to be pronounced. Haddan is STOP, we don't say haddan. Shabad Numbers are markers to give the count of Shabads, we don't pronounce them. Rahau tells to PAUSE.
1. But don't you think here we are confusing markers with Lagaan (Vowels) or is it being said deliberately?

2. What's your source of calling markers to 10 Lagaan?

You can check Patiala University's website, they are not markers but vowels:
http://www.learnpunjabi.org/intro1.asp

Kabit Bhai Gurdas Ji:

ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੋਟਾਨਿ ਬਖਾਨ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਆਕਰਨ ਗੀਤਾ ।
If all the 31 Simrities, 18 Purans, Bhagvad Geeta, four Vedas and their grammar become millions and speak,

ਸੇਸ ਮਰਜੇਸ ਅਖਲੇਸ ਸੁਰ ਮਹੇਸ ਮੁਨ ਜਗਤੁ ਅਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਅਤੀਤਾ।
If Shesh Nag of thousands of tongues, Dharamraj, Kuber and other gods, Shiva and hermits and saints of the whole world, noble men get together in millions and speak;

ਗਿਆਨ ਅਰ ਧਿਆਨ ਉਨਮਾਨ ਉਨਮਨ ਉਕਤਿ ਰਾਗ ਨਾਦਿ ਦਿਜ ਸੁਰਮਤਿ ਨੀਤਾ।
If seekers of many type of knowledge, contemplations and wise men who discuss various subjects, people of higher spiritual state, who can speak about various skills, all the Ragas and their seven notes, various knowledgeable scholars like Vashisht, goddess Saraswati keep prasing everyday the glory of Guru Ji's Shabad Gurbani,

ਅਰਧ ਲਗ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਰਸਬਦ ਅਖਰ ਮੇਕ ਅਗਮ ਅਤਿ ਅਗਮ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਮੀਤਾ ॥੫੪੦॥
O friend! all the above will fall woefully short of saying the praise of a (ਅਰਧ ਲਗ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ) half a Vowel of (ਗੁਰਸਬਦ) Gurbani Ji. The significance of Guru's words is beyond the extent of all knowledge.

Who are we or Prof. Sahib Singh to say that (ਲਗ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ) Lagaan of Gurbani are insignificant and are there only to describe grammar?

and in future, Scholars like you Giani Ji would even suggest to eliminate them from Gurbani as you are already pointing towards it in your post above.

prakash.s.bagga · #66 (**permalink**) 18-May-2012, 19:05 PM

If Laga matras are grammar how these can be considered insignificant.This fact
on the contrary becomes more important to understand.
Even in a quote Kabir Das ji refers as"APAN Ko DEERGH KAR JANE AURAN Ko LAG MAT"
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/34054-correct-pronunciation-of-waheguru.html

Prakash.s.Bagga

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #67 (**permalink**) 18-May-2012, 20:47 PM

Would any one suggest that the CAPITAL Letter to signify Proper Noun be scrapped ?? That its pointless and all should just write in small letters (Btw ALL CAPITALS is taken to mean SHOUTING..which is a NEW phenomenon in the world of English as a modern Internet language..as earlier ALL CAPITALS didnt mean shouting but just EMPHASIS !!

NO one least of all prof Sahib Singh ji is saying..SCRAP ALL LAGAN matras..what a ridiculous suggestion... What we are simply saying is that CERTAIN Aunkadds and Siharees ( ONLY) are being used as Capital letters are used in English. No one si remotel;y suggesting that ALL lagan matras all vowels etc should be scrapped..how ridiculous is that.

This Lagna Matran DEBATE is actually a DEEP SEATED CONSPIRACY by the RSS Hindutva trained Brigaed....a certain Tamil professor was given a HUGE GRANT of a few Kror rupees to do essentially the JOB of MUTILATING Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by PHYSICALLY CUTTING OUT ALL lagaan matrans...only by a fortunate accident he was EXPOSED and sacked from this Project. He had used a Sharp Blade to cut out ALL siharees, biharees, aunkadds, dulaknads, dulavan lavan kanas etc etc as IRRELEVANT !!.

Having FAILED miserably in that First attempt..NOW the SECOND LINE of attack is to keep this so called Gur-Gur(u)..sat(i)gur(u) ..Naam and Naam(u) Sabad and Sabad(u)..etc etc..charade up at all costs..so the rss agents keep labouring at it hoping to CONFUSE and SIDE TRACK us all.

Dass is no scholar and has written all i know already..just go back and read it. I have NOTHING MORE to add to this totally irrelevant discussion. I beleive Ambarsariah veer has also done his best to untangle this uljhee tanni..but peoples keep placing knots or repeating knots over and over.. Thank You.

2. Bhai Gurdass ji uses a lot of METAPHOR...we have to read between the lines...in another palce he writes.. The PHALL of teaching one Shabad to a person is equivalent to Daan of FIVE mandirs of GOLD. Not everyone has the RESOURCES to DAAN Five mandirs of Gold...nay not even half a mandir...BUT even nimanney people like me have taught the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to HUNDREDS...so How many GOLD Mandirs have I donated ??...looking at a few THOUSAND Shabds in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ?? I hardly pay my monthly DASWANDH and its certainly not even 10 grammes of GOLD.....BUT Bhai Gurdass says different !!!

prakash.s.bagga · #68 (**permalink**) 18-May-2012, 21:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh

Would any one suggest that the CAPITAL Letter to signify Proper Noun be scrapped ?? That its pointless and all should just write in small letters (Btw ALL CAPITALS is taken to mean SHOUTING..which is a NEW phenomenon in the world of English as a modern Internet language..as earlier ALL CAPITALS didnt mean shouting but just EMPHASIS !!

NO one least of all prof Sahib Singh ji is saying..SCRAP ALL LAGAN matras..what a ridiculous suggestion... What we are simply saying is that CERTAIN Aunkadds and Siharees ( ONLY) are being used as Capital letters are used in English. No one si remotel;y suggesting that ALL lagan matras all vowels etc should be scrapped..how ridiculous is that.

This Lagna Matran DEBATE is actually a DEEP SEATED CONSPIRACY by the RSS Hindutva trained Brigaed....a certain Tamil professor was given a HUGE GRANT of a few Kror rupees to do essentially the JOB of MUTILATING Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by PHYSICALLY CUTTING OUT ALL lagaan matrans...only by a fortunate accident he was EXPOSED and sacked from this Project. He had used a Sharp Blade to cut out ALL siharees, biharees, aunkadds, dulaknads, dulavan lavan kanas etc etc as IRRELEVANT !!.

Having FAILED miserably in that First attempt..NOW the SECOND LINE of attack is to keep this so called Gur-Gur(u)..sat(i)gur(u) ..Naam and Naam(u) Sabad and Sabad(u)..etc etc..charade up at all costs..so the rss agents keep labouring at it hoping to CONFUSE and SIDE TRACK us all.

Dass is no scholar and has written all i know already..just go back and read it. I have NOTHING MORE to add to this totally irrelevant discussion. I beleive Ambarsariah veer has also done his best to untangle this uljhee tanni..but peoples keep placing knots or repeating knots over and over.. Thank You.

2. Bhai Gurdass ji uses a lot of METAPHOR...we have to read between the lines...in another palce he writes.. The PHALL of teaching one Shabad to a person is equivalent to Daan of FIVE mandirs of GOLD. Not everyone has the RESOURCES to DAAN Five mandirs of Gold...nay not even half a mandir...BUT even nimanney people like me have taught the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to HUNDREDS...so How many GOLD Mandirs have I donated ??...looking at a few THOUSAND Shabds in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ?? I hardly pay my monthly DASWANDH and its certainly not even 10 grammes of GOLD.....BUT Bhai Gurdass says different !!!

I am sorry to say this message is not giving clear picture of the state of affairs.So long as nothing comes from either SGPC or other organisations which are SUPREME for us nothing should be expected .
So I think the subject matter is very clear to those who dont want to accept the pronunciation of Aukad and Sihari vowels and on the other side those who advocate for the pronunciation.
The majority is for not to pronounce so let us honour the majority and I think this subject does not require any further interaction .
Better we get to a new one.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Ambarsaria · #69 (**permalink**) 18-May-2012, 21:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

I am sorry to say this message is not giving clear picture of the state of affairs.So long as nothing comes from either SGPC or other organisations which are SUPREME for us nothing should be expected .
So I think the subject matter is very clear to those who dont want to accept the pronunciation of Aukad and Sihari vowels and on the other side those who advocate for the pronunciation.
The majority is for not to pronounce so let us honour the majority and I think this subject does not require any further interaction .
Better we get to a new one.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Prakash.S.Bagga or I would like to characterize your posts almost all of them as "lagaan and matra". Can you please elaborate what the right meanings are rather than just keep repeating or flagging what is wrong.

I thought in another post you so emphatically declared to stop this dis-respectful mode of disruption and pseudo Grammar of yours.

Positively, What do you understand the difference between :Waheguroo and Wahiguru or ny other English style of writing it?

When I say or think Waheguru I think "Wonderful One Creator" and all the rest that is stated and encouraged learning through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

What is important to you the understanding and what your inner self thinks or what your lips put out? Even a "goongah"/mute will understand without ability to speak.

Focus on the inner self brother you are too much caught in declaring all to be wrong, the weeds and missing the good that is around in others.

Please also stop using the global "WE" in your statements like "WE don't understand ....", etc., and keep it to yourself. Similarly you use unless "THEY" as in some phantom place and collective do something nothing will work? If that is the case I don't see any point in your posts and you might as well not post and wait for "THEY" to do their job. Go out of Ludhiana to Amritsar and talk to so called "THEY". Your flagged "THEY" are not too far from you. If not, start contributing and stop complaining.

Sat Sri Akal.

prakash.s.bagga · #70 (**permalink**) 18-May-2012, 21:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambarsaria

Prakash.S.Bagga or I would like to characterize your posts almost all of them as "lagaan and matra". Can you please elaborate what the right meanings are rather than just keep repeating or flagging what is wrong.

I thought in another post you so emphatically declared to stop this dis-respectful mode of disruption and pseudo Grammar of yours.

Positively, What do you understand the difference between :Waheguroo and Wahiguru or ny other English style of writing it?

When I say or think Waheguru I think "Wonderful One Creator" and all the rest that is stated and encouraged learning through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

What is important to you the understanding and what your inner self thinks or what your lips put out? Even a "goongah"/mute will understand without ability to speak.

Focus on the inner self brother you are too much caught in declaring all to be wrong, the weeds and missing the good that is around in others.

Please also stop using the global "WE" in your statements like "WE don't understand ....", etc., and keep it to yourself. Similarly you use unless "THEY" as in some phantom place and collective do something nothing will work? If that is the case I don't see any point in your posts and you might as well not post and wait for "THEY" to do their job. Go out of Ludhiana to Amritsar and talk to so called "THEY". Your flagged "THEY" are not too far from you. If not, start contributing and stop complaining.

Sat Sri Akal.

For your kind information THere is no word in Gurbanee to be considered as Waheguru so you are the first required to rectify for this blunder you are committing.Since this word as Waheguru does not exist in Gurbanee so I cant give any meaning to this word.
The correct word is Wahiguru (if you consider Guru for Gur with matra of Dulakad)....It has the meaning which you may not agree because you dont believe in grammar of gurbanee words.

I can remind you a good song and listen to this for sure..Piyar Aankho se jataya to Buraa man Gaye.'

When I read your message I do enjoy a quote as Habits are hard to die.

With best wishes and thanking for your wonderful remarks

Prakash.s.bagga

Khalistani_lion · #71 (**permalink**) 19-May-2012, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

I am sorry to say this message is not giving clear picture of the state of affairs.So long as nothing comes from either SGPC or other organisations which are SUPREME for us nothing should be expected .
So I think the subject matter is very clear to those who dont want to accept the pronunciation of Aukad and Sihari vowels and on the other side those who advocate for the pronunciation.
The majority is for not to pronounce so let us honour the majority and I think this subject does not require any further interaction .
Better we get to a new one.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
I do not agree with you on this one. This is like saying if majority thinks that Earth is flat, let's honour the majority and keep saying that Earth is flat.
When talking about pronounciation of Lagaan Matraa, we should also take into consideration the fact that few years ago from now, people were mostly illiterate or knew Shahmukhi only. Gurbani was only being taught in religious institutions (Dera if I put it in Prof. Sahib S. Ji’s words). Then after independence, Punjabi started in Punjab schools and more people start going to schools (Please correct me if I am wrong here). Proper pronunciation of Punjabi is taught in “Primary Schools” to kids and after early schooling, nobody even care about pronunciation. I remember when we were in Grade 7 in Punjab, one of our teacher asked if anybody knows full OORA AIRA (Punabi Pentee) and in our class nobody knew it. You guys know more than me that how much do Punjabi teachers care about proper pronunciation of Lagaan? So, from early education, in our schools, subconsciously we are taught that these Lagaan do not have much importance. You can test any M.A. in Punjabi to read Gurbani and check his pronunciation yourself. Let alone pronunciation, most of them would not even know how many Lagaan are there in total. So, this not caring about Lagaan was already there when Prof. Sahib Singh Ji wrote Gurbani Viakaran books. Prof. Ji himself unable to speak Lagaan as most of Punjabi scholars and already acceptance in the society of not pronouncing them, made them assume that they are for Grammar purpose only. Did Prof. Ji even write it down anywhere that we should not pronounce Lagaan? (Giani Ji, Please if you can enlighten us here?)
Punjabi scholars can’t even pronounce Lagaan inside the word, Dolaan is pronounced as Laan in most of the Kirtan. You can even check Prof. Darshan S Kirtan. Now, would be start following them on this too?
S. Parkash Singh Ji you are more experienced than Daas, what are your views on why should we pronounce all Lagaan as they are written?

Ambarsaria · #72 (**permalink**) 19-May-2012, 10:41 AM

Praksash.S.Bagga ji you get so excited in finding faults that you forget to check your own post logic or consistency

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

For your kind information THere is no word in Gurbanee to be considered as Waheguru so you are the first required to rectify for this blunder you are committing.

Pay attention to the thread. It is not Gurmat Vichhar. If the thread word under discussion is not part of Gurbani tell me what Grammar applies to it. Punjabi Grammar would be found to be the answer. Ask a Primary School teacher they will pronounce it and you can report it back. See also post by Khalistani Lion ji as I have no idea where you went to school to study Punjabi as much kind of nonsense you talk about is not even a matter at issue if you taken Punjabi classes at a good School and a good teacher and there were many around and perhaps still are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

Since this word as Waheguru does not exist in Gurbanee so I cant give any meaning to this word.

Another bunch of nonsense. Are you saying there are no words in Punjabi outside of Gurbani and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Who said or asked you to give Gurbani meaning even though for me Punjabi meaning and Gurbani meanings are not different but I think you want to kill this synergy or loving relationship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

The correct word is Wahiguru (if you consider Guru for Gur with matra of Dulakad)....It has the meaning which you may not agree because you dont believe in grammar of gurbanee words.

The thread starter did not ask you for correct word. Asked you to pronounce Waheguru. It is easily pronounced as written. If different versions in Punjabi are spelled out these can be sounded out accordingly. Pronunciation or phonetics is straightforward.

Much ado about nothing.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS:

Quote:

ਪੰਨਾ 1402, ਸਤਰ 11
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o.
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.
ਭਟ ਗਯੰਦ - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Quote:

ਪੰਨਾ 1402, ਸਤਰ 14
ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥१॥६॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||1||6||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||
ਭਟ ਗਯੰਦ - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Quote:

ਪੰਨਾ 1403, ਸਤਰ 12
ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥
सेवक कै भरपूर जुगु जुगु वाहगुरू तेरा सभु सदका ॥
Sevak kai bẖarpūr jug jug vāhgurū ṯerā sabẖ saḏkā.
Your servants are totally fulfilled, throughout the ages; O Waahay Guru, it is all You, forever.
ਭਟ ਗਯੰਦ - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok