Correct Pronunciation of Waheguru

hpannu · #19 (**permalink**) 11-Jan-2011, 01:09 AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਿ ਫਤਿਹ ॥

To make it easier for users i have taken the following examples from Prof. Sahib Singh book ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਆਕਰਣ -
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/34054-correct-pronunciation-of-waheguru.html
ਮਤੁ , ਮਤ , ਮਤਿ
ਮਤੁ - (ਨਾਂਵ- noun , ਇਕ-ਵਚਨ - Singular )
ਮਤ - ( 'ਮਤੁ' ਦਾ ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ - plural of ਮਤੁ)
ਮਤਿ - (ਨਾਂਵ-noun , ਇਸਤਰੀ ਲਿੰਗ- feminine)
************************************
ਪਤਿ, ਪਤੁ, ਪਤ
ਪਤਿ - (ਪੁਲਿੰਗ-masculine ex- ਖਸਮ) , (ਇਸਤਰੀ ਲਿੰਗ-feminine ex -ਇੱਜਤ)
ਪਤੁ - (ਪੁਲਿੰਗ-masculine , ਇਕ-ਵਚਨ-singular)
ਪਤ - (ਪੁਲਿੰਗ -masculine , ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ - plural)
********************************

Gyani Ji on this forum has mentioned the difficulties or hardship in understanding the grammar when there are multiple languages in use over a given period of time. I have not studied Punjabi in School and learning by practice. I have the book mentioned above but it's not easy and cannot be done overnight. It's takes a life time of experience like Gyani Ji to get a grasp or hope so for it.

My personal experience is the more you ask and read Gurbani - you are bound to get different answers from different people depending on who you are talking to? SIKH PANTH has not come to terms of correct ucharan (pronounciation) of GURBANI. I have asked this question to Jathedar of AKAL TAKHT myself ? and from the way SIKH PANTH is heading it's not going to be easy task to come to a consensus on this .....

Following the basic rules of Gurbani reading - I am not advocating Prof Sahib Singh or any other organisation We as SIKHS should humbly make an attempt to learn GURBANI and try to understand it to the best of our means. We don't have to argue on who's right and who's wrong ? and I certainly don't want to ramble on this forum.

For readers - even though some of the words like in above examples are pronounced the same, they are in some cases addressed as singular, plural and different tenses of grammar............
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34054

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karna Ji !

onspjo · #20 (**permalink**) 11-Jan-2011, 01:34 AM

Thanks to all for sharing their knowledge and views.
So two books can be referred for correct pronunciation:

"GURBANI DI BHASHA TE VYAKARAN" by Dr. Harkirat Singh jee Gurmukhi linguistics and Gurbani Bhasha scholars from Punjabi university----------as suggested by 'SPNadmin'

"Gurbani Viakaran" by Prof Sahib Singh ----------as suggested by 'Gyani Jarnail Singh'
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34054

I totally agree that the use of sihari or ounkarh changes the meaning of the base word.
I want to believe that it has to be pronounced too. Because if you are reading gurbani, you can see the word and understand the meaning but if you are only hearing it and the sihari/ounkar before last letter is not pronounced, how would the listener understand the correct meaning?
So, I believe, it has to be pronounced. The correct pronunciation is very important. I heard a story where a person reading gurbani in front of Guru Gobind Singh Sahibji got a punishment for not pronouncing the word correctly.

The word Ki(K with sihari) is pronounced as ki(k with short i). There is no other pronunciation to it. So now one has to look at the grammatical rules( at the time of writing) for words with single letter or words with many letters.

Like many commented that, it is subtle. Not a very long trailing sound at the end of it but still there to clearly differentiate between words with or without sihari/ounkarh.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34054

THerefore, from all the posts, I'd like to believe that Waheguru sound is NOT Wah-Long a- Guru sound. If this was the case, the h should have lav not sihari.
But short i sound. That the sihari stands for.

onspjo · #21 (**permalink**) 11-Jan-2011, 02:03 AM

Hpannu ji,
Tuhadi post baad wich dekhi. Since all the words use vowels in the end with matra, the sound of matra is clearly there(ਮਾਇ, ਸੋਇ, ਜੀਉ, ਦੁਇ, ਤਉ, ਕਾਇ, ਕਉ, ਲੁਡਾਇ, ਮਾਰਉ, ਗਵਾਇ, ਥਾਇ).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34054
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34054

How do you use punjabi letters (this is off the topic---sorry).

Findingmyway Ji, tusi kamal kita a, bahut bahut dhanwaad, for putting the book here.

Bhul chuk maaf karni--in my previous post too.

hpannu · #22 (**permalink**) 11-Jan-2011, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onspjo

Thanks to all for sharing their knowledge and views.
So two books can be referred for correct pronunciation:

"GURBANI DI BHASHA TE VYAKARAN" by Dr. Harkirat Singh jee Gurmukhi linguistics and Gurbani Bhasha scholars from Punjabi university----------as suggested by 'SPNadmin'

"Gurbani Viakaran" by Prof Sahib Singh ----------as suggested by 'Gyani Jarnail Singh'

I totally agree that the use of sihari or ounkarh changes the meaning of the base word.

Code:

I want to believe that it has to be pronounced too. Because if you are reading gurbani, you can see the word and understand the meaning but if you are only hearing it and the sihari/ounkar before last letter is not pronounced, how would the listener understand the correct meaning?
So, I believe, it has to be pronounced.

The correct pronunciation is very important. I heard a story where a person reading gurbani in front of Guru Gobind Singh Sahibji got a punishment for not pronouncing the word correctly.

The word Ki(K with sihari) is pronounced as ki(k with short i). There is no other pronunciation to it. So now one has to look at the grammatical rules( at the time of writing) for words with single letter or words with many letters.

Like many commented that, it is subtle. Not a very long trailing sound at the end of it but still there to clearly differentiate between words with or without sihari/ounkarh.

THerefore, from all the posts, I'd like to believe that Waheguru sound is NOT Wah-Long a- Guru sound. If this was the case, the h should have lav not sihari.
But short i sound. That the sihari stands for.

Dear Onspjo Ji -

First of all in ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਿ is in the middle so you have to sound it. ਿ ਅਤੇ ੇ ਦਾ sound in this case is similar to each other ਿ ਦਾ sound a little shorter than ੇ not a long a but a shorter a ਹੋਵੇਗਾ । ਜਦ ਿ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੇ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਵਿਚ ਲਗੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ like ਵਿਚ then the sound is like vich ਛੋਟੀ e or i ਕਹਿ ਲਵੋ । i hope i am not confusing you ....... you can pass me your phone # i can give you a call. send it to me in the personal message.

Code:

I want to believe that it has to be pronounced too. Because if you  are reading gurbani, you can see the word and understand the meaning  but if you are only hearing it and the sihari/ounkar before last letter  is not pronounced, how would the listener understand the correct  meaning?
 So, I believe, it has to be pronounced.

Don't confuse yourself - when there is a sihari ਿ or onkar ੁ at the end of ਸ਼ਬਦ it is not pronounced and is there for grammar reasons ...... please read earlier posts to clarify yourself.

For your other question - I write ਪੰਜਾਬੀ using UNICODE fonts. Please use Punjabi UNICODE fonts.

Ambarsaria · #23 (**permalink**) 11-Jan-2011, 05:02 AM

I am no phonetics or linguist expert but from my knowledge this is how I see the pronunciation.

Start with the three syllables as below
- waah - hicK - guru
- Say it separately
- Now say it jointly
- Now drop the "ck" sound in the middle syllable
This becomes for me ਵਾਿਹਗੁਰੂ

By the way, Professor Sahib Singh ji in Gurbani Darpan translate ਵਾਿਹਗੁਰੂ, ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ as"Hay Guru" or english "Hello Guru" as an address. This contrasts with "wah - Hay meaning you are wonderful". Quite significant distinction as one may notice that the repetition of "hay Guru" versus "wah-hay-guru" is quiet different.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34054
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34054

Sat Sri Akal.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #24 (**permalink**) 11-Jan-2011, 06:08 AM

Findingmyway Ji,
That book on SCribd..looks like it..but it failed to load on my computer..so i cnat really say for sure. Anyway I will try to source it on the net as well. Thanks

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #25 (**permalink**) 11-Jan-2011, 06:26 AM

Ambarsariah Ji,
you wrote...>>>>>>>>>
By the way, Professor Sahib Singh ji in Gurbani Darpan translate ਵਾਿਹਗੁਰੂ, ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ as"Hay Guru" or english "Hello Guru" as an address. This contrasts with "wah - Hay meaning you are wonderful". Quite significant distinction as one may notice that the repetition of "hay Guru" versus "wah-hay-guru" is quiet different.>>>>>>>>>>>
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34054
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34054

Exactly thats WHY many question how this word could be "Name" of the Creator. This word is used SOLELY by the Bhatts and in Bani written specifically addressed to the Five Gurus....but even more specifically to Guru Ramdass Ji and Guru Arjun ji as Partakh Har..the GURU they can see in front of their eyes. All these Bhatts are saying is they are "exclaiming..WAH Guru..Wonderful GURU as praise for the GURU they can see before them.

1. I REJECT this for two reasons. First It DOESNT MATTER who used the Word "Waheguru"....whether its one / or all the Sikh GURUS..or anyone else...or when ?? Suffice it that it NOW EXISTS in the GURU.( Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)..and is used for the GURU and in Gurmatt Guru, satgur and Waheguru, Creator Akal Purakh are ONE and the same. Our GURU is SHABAD..and Akal Purakh is Shabad. To try and separate/divide the various contributors of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on whatever grounds is blasphemy and ought to be condemned outright as an attempt to weaken sikhs and cause our downfall. This must be resisted at all costs.No one must dare to attack the Bhagat Banis, Bhatt swaiyahs, farid Jis bani etc etc as any lesser than Gurbani penned by the Sikh gurus...for us its the COLLECTIVE COMPOSITION in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is the GURU. Period. We BOW to the Complete GURU.

2. The Guru Khlasa Panth has reached a concesnus that this is the Name of The Creator for Sikhs..and this is the word we are asked to recite at time of Khandey batte dee Pahul. The HUKM of the Panj is supreme.

This is removed from the pronounciation topic..but i thought to just pause on it as it may come up..sooner or later...better to be prepared just in case. Apologies for the digression.animatedkhanda1

findingmyway · #26 (**permalink**) 11-Jan-2011, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh

Findingmyway Ji,
That book on SCribd..looks like it..but it failed to load on my computer..so i cnat really say for sure. Anyway I will try to source it on the net as well. Thanks

Gyani ji,
If you click on the link at the top of the scribd window it should take you directly to the book link in a new tab. Alternatively hove your mouse over it and right click :happykaur:
Jasleen

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #27 (**permalink**) 11-Jan-2011, 09:26 AM

Jasleen Ji, Thanks. Yes this is the book although this looks like an older copy. The latest 2001 edition is printed using computerised fonts and very nice to read. Computerised means cna use Bold italics etc for emphasis hence easier to comprehend.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34054

Prof sahib Singh did this monumental work in the ealry 1930s...and then based his darpan on this foundation. Thast why the darpan is logical and carries the true spirit of Gurbani most of the time. ( I say most of the time because in some instances, the Vedic environment/saffron enviornment that any scholar born and bred in Punjab will be..even Prof sahib Singh fails to get the Gurbani Essence and goes in the wrong direction...BUT not many....the earlier teekas like the Faridkotee Teeka is too heavily vedic and saffronised..so much so that it seems that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is just another Ved..and the Sikh gurus had nothing new and Guru nanak ji just expanded on the OM to make EK oankaar !!)