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Aim of Debasing Oneself in Gurbani

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 23-Nov-2010, 06:51 AM
Ishna's Avatar Ishna Ishna is offline
 
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Aim of Debasing Oneself in Gurbani

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Hi everyone, Please take a moment to read the this part of Hukamnama 22/11/10: BIHAAGRAA, FIFTH MEHL: Grant Your Grace, O Guru, O Perfect Supreme Lord God, that I might chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, night and day. I speak the Ambrosial Words of the Guru’s Bani, praising the Lord. Your Will seems so sweet to me, Lord. Show kindness and compassion, O Lord of the Word, Lord of the Universe; without You, I have no other at all. Almighty, sublime, infinite and perfect Lord, my soul, body, wealth and mind are Yours. I am foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and ignorant. Prays Nanak, I seek Your Sanctuary — please save me from coming and going in reincarnation. || 1 ||


I have underlined the sentence which is an example of debasing oneself in Gurbani. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has many such phrases. I’m curious as to the frame of mind and self-perception the Guru is trying to instil in us.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33321-aim-of-debasing-oneself-in-gurbani.html



It brings peace to feel foolish, stupid and masterless, as if instead of trying to swim upstream one ceases the struggle and goes along with the flow (Hukam).


Feeling ignorant, lowly and fickle brings humility to the reader, so the reader is not full of pride and arrogance.



But where does a sense of self-esteem fit into one’s psyche? Speaking as a Westerner, we are raised to believe in ourselves, be confident, develop and use our skills, and aim to do our best. We’re told not to let other’s debase us, to be strong and stand our ground. Is it wrong to feel this way?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33321



If one lacks self-esteem, isn’t one at risk of being abused? If I am so lowly and worthless, why should my neighbour not steal from me and my husband not beat me? If I am so stupid, is it not better for me to bow to the directions of others? Obviously not, or else Sikhs wouldn’t be here today!


I’m interested to hear the sangat’s views on this.


Thank you in advance
Ishna




 
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Last edited by Aman Singh; 30-Nov-2010 at 21:51 PM. Reason: Tidy up - again!
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 23-Nov-2010, 06:54 AM
spnadmin's Avatar spnadmin spnadmin is offline
 
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Re: Aim of debasing oneself in Gurbani

This is a very good question, and I am interested in sangat's views too!
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 24-Nov-2010, 09:31 AM
Confused's Avatar Confused Confused is offline
 
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Re: Aim of Debasing Oneself in Gurbani

Ishna ji,


I was waiting for the more knowledgeable members to respond, but since this thread may end up being lost under the pile of the more recent posts, I am responding in order to draw the attention. Although I won’t be representing the Sikh perspective, I hope nevertheless to be able to contribute positively.


Quote:
It brings peace to feel foolish, stupid and masterless, as if instead of trying to swim upstream one ceases the struggle and goes along with the flow (Hukam).

C: I wouldn’t say that it brings peace to *feel* foolish etc. but rather that it is good to *know* the truth, which is that it is characterized by a level of detachment. In other words, when the truth is known, it is accepted. But this is not some general idea based on observation of outward behavior or feedback from other people, since this will cause resistance in one form or the other which is manifestation in fact, of attachment. The reason that our life is full of unnecessary struggle is exactly because we don’t know ourselves and don’t want to.

=========
Ishna:
Feeling ignorant, lowly and fickle brings humility to the reader, so the reader is not full of pride and arrogance.

C: I think that it may be an encouragement to know yourself as you are. I would suggest that that no good comes from feeling worthless, which is rather a manifestation of conceit. But any instance of understanding who we are, is a step away from ignorance, whereas when there is a feeling of worthlessness, this is in fact accompanied by ignorance.

========
Ishna:
But where does a sense of self-esteem fit into one’s psyche? Speaking as a Westerner, we are raised to believe in ourselves, be confident, develop and use our skills, and aim to do our best. We’re told not to let other’s debase us, to be strong and stand our ground. Is it wrong to feel this way?

C: Having a correct estimation of oneself, works against the tendency to both, ‘believing in oneself’ as well as to ‘feeling of worthlessness’. These two are reflection of the lack in both, understanding as well as faith in the good.

Forget about worldly values if you wish to develop moral ones.

We don’t need to have self-esteem etc. since this would only be giving oneself more excuse to behave self-centeredly. What we need to realize is that all of us do indeed love our own self more than anyone else in the world. Our relationship with our family for example, is all about making ourselves feel happier. Also when attempting to do good towards other people, the underlying motivation is likely this attachment that we have to ‘self’. Even in the case of those people who feel lousy about themselves, it is this self-concern which is the cause. So we don’t really need to be told at all about the need for self-preservation. We do it anyway, only in our own peculiar ways, all of these however result in harm about which we don’t usually realize…..
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33321

=========
Ishna:
If one lacks self-esteem, isn’t one at risk of being abused?

C: The only real enemies that one has are one’s own ignorance and attachment and the hordes they bring along. If you come to understand yourself and have confidence in the power of good deeds, you’d be independent of other people’s actions. This, together with the understanding about karma, would make you realize that other people can’t really harm you.

Try kindness and you may discover that your fears are unfounded.

=========
Ishna:
If I am so lowly and worthless, why should my neighbour not steal from me and my husband not beat me?

C: I’d liken such thinking as the working of Maya. It is the kind of reasoning self-attachment makes in order that it feels justified in continuing to do what it does.

But alas this is all we know. We have not for example, been aware of moments when there is some genuine kindness and seen its effects. At such times, no one is our enemy and hence we’d not feel threatened by anyone’s behavior.

==========
Ishna:
If I am so stupid, is it not better for me to bow to the directions of others? Obviously not, or else Sikhs wouldn’t be here today!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33321


C: No one really thinks he is so stupid that he should then follow the dictates of other people. People do what they do, and neither is following one’s own religion nor is being influenced by another is fruitful, if attachment is at the root of it. And from the standpoint of self-attachment which is what it usually comes down to, can one then say that one is doing good towards one’s own religion? Is the source of inspiration not the teachings about the value of goodness and the harm of evil? If so, is this not the one reason why people should follow and the religion survives?

Hope the above has helped some.
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Old 30-Nov-2010, 04:16 AM
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Re: Aim of Debasing Oneself in Gurbani

Ishna Ji,
Please could you provide the original gurbani or page number? I'm not fond of English translations so can't comment as is at the moment!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33321
Thanks,
Jasleen
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Old 30-Nov-2010, 08:01 AM
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Re: Aim of Debasing Oneself in Gurbani

Ref:Aim of Debasing oneself in Gurbaani

The reference of the SHABAD from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is visible on pp 543 BIHAAGRA M 5'
In Gurbaani whereverthere are verses signifying the debasement of oneself,these are
are relative to THE CREATOR and not relative to the wordly self esteem.So there is no risk of selfesteem being lowered in any way.
As a matter of fact Gurbaani makes our mind stronger and stronger even in the most
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33321
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33321
unpleasent situations of the life cycle.canacquire the properties as mentioned in the very first line of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Such person can attain the heighest State in wordly affairs as well.
So it only the proper understanding of the context of Gurbaani which is important.
Prakash.S.Bagga
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Old 30-Nov-2010, 08:04 AM
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Re: Aim of Debasing Oneself in Gurbani

Guru Granth Sahib Page 543
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੂਰੇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣਾ ਰਾਮ ॥

ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
बिहागड़ा महला ५ ॥
Bihāgaṛā mėhlā 5.
Bihaagraa, Fifth Mehl:

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੂਰੇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
करि किरपा गुर पारब्रहम पूरे अनदिनु नामु वखाणा राम ॥
Kar kirpā gur pārbarahm pūre an▫ḏin nām vakẖāṇā rām.
Shower Your Mercy upon me, O Guru, O Perfect Supreme Lord God, that I might chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, night and day.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਉਚਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮਿਠਾ ਲਾਗੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਣਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
अम्रित बाणी उचरा हरि जसु मिठा लागै तेरा भाणा राम ॥
Amriṯ baṇī ucẖrā har jas miṯẖā lāgai ṯerā bẖāṇā rām.
I speak the Ambrosial Words of the Guru's Bani, praising the Lord. Your Will is sweet to me, Lord.

ਕਰਿ ਦਇਆ ਮਇਆ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਕੋਇ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨਾ ॥
करि दइआ मइआ गोपाल गोबिंद कोइ नाही तुझ बिना ॥
Kar ḏa▫i▫ā ma▫i▫ā gopāl gobinḏ ko▫e nāhī ṯujẖ binā.
Show kindness and compassion, O Sustainer of the Word, Lord of the Universe; without You, I have no other.

ਸਮਰਥ ਅਗਥ ਅਪਾਰ ਪੂਰਨ ਜੀਉ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮਨਾ ॥
समरथ अगथ अपार पूरन जीउ तनु धनु तुम्ह मना ॥
Samrath agath apār pūran jī▫o ṯan ḏẖan ṯumĥ manā.
Almighty, sublime, infinite, perfect Lord - my soul, body, wealth and mind are Yours.

ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧ ਅਨਾਥ ਚੰਚਲ ਬਲਹੀਨ ਨੀਚ ਅਜਾਣਾ ॥
मूरख मुगध अनाथ चंचल बलहीन नीच अजाणा ॥
Mūrakẖ mugaḏẖ anāth cẖancẖal balhīn nīcẖ ajāṇā.
I am foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and ignorant.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਣਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਰਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥੧॥
बिनवंति नानक सरणि तेरी रखि लेहु आवण जाणा ॥१॥
Binvanṯ Nānak saraṇ ṯerī rakẖ leho āvaṇ jāṇā. ||1||
Prays Nanak, I seek Your Sanctuary - please save me from coming and going in reincarnation. ||1||

ਸਾਧਹ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹ ਹਰਿ ਨੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
साधह सरणी पाईऐ हरि जीउ गुण गावह हरि नीता राम ॥
Sāḏẖah sarṇī pā▫ī▫ai har jī▫o guṇ gāvah har nīṯā rām.
In the Sanctuary of the Holy Saints, I have found the Dear Lord, and I constantly sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord.

ਧੂਰਿ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੀ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਗਉ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਭ ਪਤਿਤ ਪੁਨੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
धूरि भगतन की मनि तनि लगउ हरि जीउ सभ पतित पुनीता राम ॥
Ḏẖūr bẖagṯan kī man ṯan laga▫o har jī▫o sabẖ paṯiṯ punīṯā rām.
Applying the dust of the devotees to the mind and body, O Dear Lord, all sinners are sanctified.

ਪਤਿਤਾ ਪੁਨੀਤਾ ਹੋਹਿ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸੰਗਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
पतिता पुनीता होहि तिन्ह संगि जिन्ह बिधाता पाइआ ॥
Paṯiṯā punīṯā hohi ṯinĥ sang jinĥ biḏẖāṯā pā▫i▫ā.
The sinners are sanctified in the company of those who have met the Creator Lord.

ਨਾਮ ਰਾਤੇ ਜੀਅ ਦਾਤੇ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਹਿ ਚੜਹਿ ਸਵਾਇਆ ॥
नाम राते जीअ दाते नित देहि चड़हि सवाइआ ॥
Nām rāṯe jī▫a ḏāṯe niṯ ḏėh cẖaṛėh savā▫i▫ā.
Imbued with the Naam, the Name of the Lord, they are given the gift of the life of the soul; their gifts increase day by day.

ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਨਵ ਨਿਧਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਜੀਤਾ ॥
रिधि सिधि नव निधि हरि जपि जिनी आतमु जीता ॥
Riḏẖ siḏẖ nav niḏẖ har jap jinī āṯam jīṯā.
Wealth, the supernatural spiritual powers of the Siddhas, and the nine treasures come to those who meditate on the Lord, and conquer their own soul.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵਡਭਾਗਿ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ਸਾਧ ਸਾਜਨ ਮੀਤਾ ॥੨॥
बिनवंति नानकु वडभागि पाईअहि साध साजन मीता ॥२॥
Binvanṯ Nānak vadbẖāg pā▫ī▫ah sāḏẖ sājan mīṯā. ||2||
Prays Nanak, it is only by great good fortune that the Holy Saints, the Lord's companions, are found, O friends. ||2||

ਜਿਨੀ ਸਚੁ ਵਣੰਜਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
जिनी सचु वणंजिआ हरि जीउ से पूरे साहा राम ॥
Jinī sacẖ vaṇanji▫ā har jī▫o se pūre sāhā rām.
Those who deal in Truth, O Dear Lord, are the perfect bankers.

ਬਹੁਤੁ ਖਜਾਨਾ ਤਿੰਨ ਪਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਲਾਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
बहुतु खजाना तिंन पहि हरि जीउ हरि कीरतनु लाहा राम ॥
Bahuṯ kẖajānā ṯinn pėh har jī▫o har kīrṯan lāhā rām.
They possess the great treasure, O Dear Lord, and they reap the profit of the Lord's Praise.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਨ ਲੋਭੁ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਜੋ ਜਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਤਿਆ ॥
कामु क्रोधु न लोभु बिआपै जो जन प्रभ सिउ रातिआ ॥
Kām kroḏẖ na lobẖ bi▫āpai jo jan parabẖ si▫o rāṯi▫ā.
Sexual desire, anger and greed do not cling to those who are attuned to God.

ਏਕੁ ਜਾਨਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਮਾਨਹਿ ਰਾਮ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਤਿਆ ॥
एकु जानहि एकु मानहि राम कै रंगि मातिआ ॥
Ėk jānėh ek mānėh rām kai rang māṯi▫ā.
They know the One, and they believe in the One; they are intoxicated with the Lord's Love.

ਲਗਿ ਸੰਤ ਚਰਣੀ ਪੜੇ ਸਰਣੀ ਮਨਿ ਤਿਨਾ ਓਮਾਹਾ ॥
लगि संत चरणी पड़े सरणी मनि तिना ओमाहा ॥
Lag sanṯ cẖarṇī paṛe sarṇī man ṯinā omāhā.
They fall at the Feet of the Saints, and seek their Sanctuary; their minds are filled with joy.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਲੈ ਸੇਈ ਸਚੇ ਸਾਹਾ ॥੩॥
बिनवंति नानकु जिन नामु पलै सेई सचे साहा ॥३॥
Binvanṯ Nānak jin nām palai se▫ī sacẖe sāhā. ||3||
Prays Nanak, those who have the Naam in their laps are the true bankers. ||3||

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਈ ਸਿਮਰੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲ ਧਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
नानक सोई सिमरीऐ हरि जीउ जा की कल धारी राम ॥
Nānak so▫ī simrī▫ai har jī▫o jā kī kal ḏẖārī rām.
O Nanak, meditate on that Dear Lord, who supports all by His almighty strength.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਨਹੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
गुरमुखि मनहु न वीसरै हरि जीउ करता पुरखु मुरारी राम ॥
Gurmukẖ manhu na vīsrai har jī▫o karṯā purakẖ murārī rām.
In their minds, the Gurmukhs do not forget the Dear Lord, the Primal Creator Lord.

ਦੂਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਭਉ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥
दूखु रोगु न भउ बिआपै जिन्ही हरि हरि धिआइआ ॥
Ḏūkẖ rog na bẖa▫o bi▫āpai jinĥī har har ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā.
Pain, disease and fear do not cling to those who meditate on the Lord, Har, Har.

ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਤਰੇ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
संत प्रसादि तरे भवजलु पूरबि लिखिआ पाइआ ॥
Sanṯ parsāḏ ṯare bẖavjal pūrab likẖi▫ā pā▫i▫ā.
By the Grace of the Saints, they cross over the terrifying world-ocean, and obtain their pre-ordained destiny.

ਵਜੀ ਵਧਾਈ ਮਨਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਆਈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਪਾਰੀ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33321
वजी वधाई मनि सांति आई मिलिआ पुरखु अपारी ॥
vajī vaḏẖā▫ī man sāʼnṯ ā▫ī mili▫ā purakẖ apārī.
They are congratulated and applauded, their minds are at peace, and they meet the infinite Lord God.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਇਛ ਪੁੰਨੀ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੩॥
बिनवंति नानकु सिमरि हरि हरि इछ पुंनी हमारी ॥४॥३॥
Binvanṯ Nānak simar har har icẖẖ punnī hamārī. ||4||3||
Prays Nanak, by meditating in remembrance on the Lord, Har, Har, my desires are fulfilled. ||4||3||
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Old 30-Nov-2010, 08:17 AM
prakash.s.bagga's Avatar prakash.s.bagga prakash.s.bagga is offline
 
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Re: Aim of Debasing Oneself in Gurbani

RUPINDER SINGH JI,
I appreciate you for depicting the complete Shabad related to the Topic.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33321

With many thanks

Prakash.S.Bagga
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Old 30-Nov-2010, 09:37 AM
Ishna's Avatar Ishna Ishna is offline
 
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Re: Aim of Debasing Oneself in Gurbani

Thank you Prakash S Bagga ji for pointing it the comparison is between the individual and God.

Findingmyway ji, I didn't put the ang number as when I receive Hukamnamas to my email address, the provider doesn't put the ang number and I didn't have time to look it up - sorry!!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33321

Gurbani is so beautiful but so difficult for me to understand.

Thank you all for your help.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33321

Ishna
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Old 30-Nov-2010, 10:57 AM
ravneet_sb's Avatar ravneet_sb ravneet_sb is offline
 
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Re: Aim of Debasing Oneself in Gurbani

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishna View Post
Hi everyone

Please take a moment to read the this part of Hukamnama 22/11/10:

BIHAAGRAA, FIFTH MEHL: Grant Your Grace, O Guru, O Perfect Supreme Lord God, that I might chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, night and day. I speak the Ambrosial Words of the Guru’s Bani, praising the Lord. Your Will seems so sweet to me, Lord. Show kindness and compassion, O Lord of the Word, Lord of the Universe; without You, I have no other at all. Almighty, sublime, infinite and perfect Lord, my soul, body, wealth and mind are Yours. I am foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and ignorant. Prays Nanak, I seek Your Sanctuary — please save me from coming and going in reincarnation. || 1 ||

I have underlined the sentence which is an example of debasing oneself in Gurbani. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has many such phrases. I’m curious as to the frame of mind and self-perception the Guru is trying to instil in us.



It brings peace to feel foolish, stupid and masterless, as if instead of trying to swim upstream one ceases the struggle and goes along with the flow (Hukam).


Feeling ignorant, lowly and fickle brings humility to the reader, so the reader is not full of pride and arrogance.



But where does a sense of self-esteem fit into one’s psyche? Speaking as a Westerner, we are raised to believe in ourselves, be confident, develop and use our skills, and aim to do our best. We’re told not to let other’s debase us, to be strong and stand our ground. Is it wrong to feel this way?



If one lacks self-esteem, isn’t one at risk of being abused? If I am so lowly and worthless, why should my neighbour not steal from me and my husband not beat me? If I am so stupid, is it not better for me to bow to the directions of others? Obviously not, or else Sikhs wouldn’t be here today!


I’m interested to hear the sangat’s views on this.


Thank you in advance
Ishna

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Dear Ishna,

Our mind is foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and
ignorant

without learning of Guru's Bani.

While the same mind can be strong enough to take any challange. It is not the argument for the outer world,

this is for the weak self and all powerful self.

One has to conquer his/her weak self to meet the challanges of outer world.

Mind Thoughts which keep you low, one has to conquer first,

through GURU BANI in soul and action. One can conquer his weak mind, and than take the challanges of outer world.



Regards
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