Why are we not allowed to cut hair when it's ok to cut nails, since both are created by God?

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**244** (**permalink**) 30-Apr-2012, 18:06 PM

The entire 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are "for EXPERIENCING...LIVING..."..but many among us decide to BYPASS the LIVING..the EATING and ENJOYING what Guru ji has put before us in a Thaall....Thaal vich tin vastu payiouh....sat santokh vicharo....khavo bhuncho..enjoy them....live life to the fullest as we (writers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) have experienced..enjoyed...and we GO into..WHY why..where is it so..who said so..why NOt this ?? why not that ?? so what ?? who cares..?? etc etc...we do research..we wonder..we walk aimlessly..when the GURU offers His hand for us to hold..we shrug it off..step back...and as a result we LOSE it ALL...Beware..time is SHORT...Day is going past EATING..Night goes by SLEEPING...and soon it will be too late...

BhagatSingh · #**245** (**permalink**) 01-May-2012, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confused

Bhagat ji,

I think many who think that way, do so not because they themselves are householders, but because of what they draw from the teachings. What I believe is that people are inspired mostly by Guru Nanak, and not only was he a householder, but what he taught pointed to the some errors in thought and understanding on the part of those who decide to leave the household life.

Yes

Quote:

And since I think, the Nihang and Udasi tradition came not from Guru Nanak, but those after him; it is understandable that they will not be taken seriously.

Udasis comes from Guru Nanak Dev ji's son Sri Chand ji. In general, Sikhs hold a lot of respect for both groups.

Quote:

And this was said by the Buddha:

"He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. Accordingly it is said:

"Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm,
Tamed, humble, pure, a man who does no harm
To aught that lives, that one's a brahman true.
An ascetic and mendicant too."

Nice. What's teh source?

Quote:

Although the Basket of Discipline is for monks, a householder with any degree of understanding will no doubt find much inspiration from reading it. I wonder if it is the same with the above mentioned text?

Not familiar enough with the material to make any comments.

Quote:

Well, not odd, but what is. And what is it? Is it as you say, the same, to keep the hair or shave it? I don't think so. According to the Buddhist and as I pointed out, hair is not conducive to the simple life at all. After all, it needs to be well kept, made sure that it is cleaned, causes the parts under it to sweat and therefore smell, comes in the way while doing most things, including bathing, going to the toilet and eating food. Is this being simple? Reminds me of the hippies, not just the appearance but more the idealistic attitude.

Sikhs don't have those problems because we know how to handle hair.

Yes form-wise the two practices appear different, in one case you have hair and in the other you don't. The practices that go along with maintenance are certainly different.

You mention some issues that arise with keeping hair but simplicity is the way you handle those issues. So one may wash their hair, comb it and put a turban on. The other decides to get rid of it. Simplicity here is not in what you did but how you did it. If the one who shaves his head is filled with the 5 thieves than his so-called simple action is not simple at all. Simplicity is to be without the five thieves. If this is present then all actions are simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by back to Confused ji

If one must have long hair, then it is better that one ties it into a joora and cover it.

Yep.

Quote:

I'm almost certain that many of those long-haired recluses would get very upset if someone secretly cut their hair, since they would surely have grown to have great attachment to the idea of keeping it uncut. The question to ask is, why keep and not cut it?

I am sure Buddhists would also get upset if they were made to wear a wig or were forced to grow their hair by society.

Unless both parties are enlightened they will get upset. You get upset when you are not "set" down in God.

Hair grows regardless of what you want. Can you accept that and let them be? Can you let them do what they do and maintain your composure with them?
The question is why are you cutting it - are you coming from a place of aversion to the lifestyle with hair or are you coming from a place of love for God, a place without the 5 thieves?

Quote:

The reason why some keep and some don't is not because both are correct. It is either both are wrong or only one is correct.

It is about the mindset not what they do. One who has a simple mindset may either choose to have long hair or shave their head bald.

Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||
page 1365

Quote:

To go by “marks” is practical? It is a proliferation of view and easy object of attachment. Not simple and not practical at all!

Not just the mark of but actual, monkhood, simplicity and renunciation itself. The mark obviously is rooted in actual monkood, simplicity and reality, which is the only reason why it can be a mark of it, in the first place. If it wasn't rooted in the actual somehow it wouldn't be called a mark of it.

Quote:

To do something symbolically is not an instance of understanding and therefore can’t be detachment, but must instead be the stuff of attachment.

Wasn't talking about symbolic reasons. This is the reason why they did it in the past; renunciation from the world is why Sikhs keep long hair. It is of course not the most popular reason these days. But it is the original reason. The most popular one these days is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prakash.s.Bagga

Among 1000 persons without Kesh it is difficult to know who among thousand is what in reference of religious beliefs.Persons without Kesh are those who believe in multi God of their own choice.

But A single SIKH with KESH among 1000 can be identified that this particular person is one with belief in GuRu or NIRANKAAR PRABHu.
KESH provide a very very strong identity to Sikhs. Among persons without KESH one can not identify who is a Sikh ?
This is probably one of the most important aspect of KESH for SIKHS.
That is why KESH are refered as STAMP of GURU.

Now if you give it some attention, you realize both reasons are the same in essence.

chazSingh · #**246** (**permalink**) 01-May-2012, 16:50 PM

[quote]Wasn't talking about symbolic reasons. This is the reason why they did it in the past; renunciation from the world is why Sikhs keep long hair. It is of course not the most popular reason these days. But it is the original reason. The most popular one these days is this:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/32165-why-we-not-allowed-cut-hair.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prakash.s.Bagga
Among 1000 persons without Kesh it is difficult to know who among thousand is what in reference of religious beliefs.Persons without Kesh are those who believe in multi God of their own choice.

But A single SIKH with KESH among 1000 can be identified that this particular person is one with belief in GuRu or NIRANKAAR PRABHu.
KESH provide a very very strong identity to Sikhs. Among persons without KESH one can not identify who is a Sikh ?
This is probably one of the most important aspect of KESH for SIKHS.
That is why KESH are refered as STAMP of GURU.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165
Now if you give it some attention, you realize both reasons are the same in essence.

[quote]

Nicely put bhagat singh ji,

I wear a turban, I work as an I.T engineer. Many people have to speak to me on a daily basis and i get people asking me if i'm very spititual, they get intrigued and want to know more.

My problem is that i am still being hung by the 5 thieves, but i am aware of them, i know what they are doing, and i know how i can remove their strangle hold, through my Simran and Seva.

Now if i was to become a purer being, one that has all his 5 thieves in complete control...the long hair, the turban and my pure being and soul would make me into the lighthouse that Yogi Bhajan was always saying...

A sikh is to be the lighthouse, that when the whole world is falling apart, people can turn to the light within the Sikh for help, guidance and support.

This is the journey one must take to become a True sikh. a beacon of light.

God bless all.

Archived_member14 · #**247** (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 12:40 PM

Bhagat ji,

Quote: And since I think, the Nihang and Udasi tradition came not from Guru Nanak, but those after him; it is understandable that they will not be taken seriously.

Bhagat: Udasis comes from Guru Nanak Dev ji's son Sri Chand ji. In general, Sikhs hold a lot of respect for both groups.

Confused: Let’s just say that “you” respect both.

=====
Quote: And this was said by the Buddha:

"He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. Accordingly it is said:

"Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm,
Tamed, humble, pure, a man who does no harm
To aught that lives, that one's a brahman true.
An ascetic and mendicant too."

Bhagat: Nice. What's teh source?

Confused: Sorry, I don’t exactly know which Sutta this is from.

====
Quote: Although the Basket of Discipline is for monks, a householder with any degree of understanding will no doubt find much inspiration from reading it. I wonder if it is the same with the above mentioned text?

Bhagat: Not familiar enough with the material to make any comments.

Confused: You don’t need to know the Basket of Discipline. What I am asking you is whether on reading the corresponding Sikh texts, a Sikh householder with any level of understanding will find it inspiring.

====
Quote: Well, not odd, but what is. And what is it? Is it as you say, the same, to keep the hair or shave it? I don't think so. According to the Buddhist and as I pointed out, hair is not conducive to the simple life at all. After all, it needs to be well kept, made sure that it is cleaned, causes the parts under it to sweat and therefore smell, comes in the way while doing most things, including bathing, going to the toilet and eating food. Is this being simple? Reminds me of the hippies, not just the appearance but more the idealistic attitude.

Bhagat: Sikhs don't have those problems because we know how to handle hair.

Confused: Again, you should not speak for other people but only yourself.
Knowing how to handle the hair stands together with knowing how to handle baldness. This is not the issue here. The question is why keep hair in the first place if one thinks to lead a simple life. If one has hair and does not have the means to cut it, but knows to handle that situation, this is different. But given the options, why would one not choose to do away with hair since the problems associated with it invariably arise.

The concept of the simple life comes from seeing the danger of attachment and whatever else is associated. Why would someone who sees the dust in the household life, not also see the dust of having long hair and therefore choose to cut it off?

Indeed people in becoming used to and learning how to handle their hair this is not the result of any wisdom, but more a reflection of the nature of attachment. And this is opposite in spirit to what we are talking in favor of, namely renunciation.

====
Bhagat: Yes form-wise the two practices appear different, in one case you have hair and in the other you don't. The practices that go along with maintenance are certainly different.

Confused: While keeping hair does require that one maintain it, shaving off in fact is aimed at having *not to maintain it*. Quite opposite isn’t it?

====
Bhagat: You mention some issues that arise with keeping hair but simplicity is the way you handle those issues. So one may wash their hair, comb it and put a turban on. The other decides to get rid of it. Simplicity here is not in what you did but how you did it.

Confused: Then keeping nails uncut but cleaning it should also be OK? According to your line of reasoning, it is not about whether to cut or keep nails, but how you deal with it. Absurd suggestion isn’t it? Think about hair in the same way and you may come to have a similar view about it.

====
Bhagat: If the one who shaves his head is filled with the 5 thieves than his so-called simple action is not simple at all. Simplicity is to be without the five thieves. If this is present then all actions are simple.

Confused: Of course one should not ordain at all if one is not wise and pure enough. But when one has the understanding and wants to live the simple life, why would one think to maintain hair? The idea of keeping hair beside what I have pointed out so far must also come from conceit and encourage more of it at every turn, from the time one wakes up to the time one goes to sleep. This is *not* simplicity at all! Indeed it is from such a perception that some people think it best to get rid of hair altogether.

====
Quote: I'm almost certain that many of those long-haired recluses would get very upset if someone secretly cut their hair, since they would surely have grown to have great attachment to the idea of keeping it uncut. The question to ask is, why keep and not cut it?

Bhagat: I am sure Buddhists would also get upset if they were made to wear a wig or were forced to grow their hair by society.

Confused: How come you suddenly factor in society? Indeed if society was to play a part in the individual’s decision to ordain, it would make meaningless the very idea of renunciation.

I was talking about an individual’s action towards another individual. I was pointing to self-image that comes with the individual’s decision to keep hair while rejecting the idea of cutting it. In the case of some Buddhist monk, if there is irritation, this would be no different from when someone instead of putting a wig, puts paint on his head. It is not about maintaining the image of having no hair. But in the case of some sanyasi, there is the image of one with long hair to be maintained as a result of growing identification with it. Besides, while the Buddhist monk is doing what the community of monks have laid out rules for, therefore being bald is not about personal image, the sanyasi in maintaining his hair must be motivated to a good extent by the idea of what sanyasi’s should look like.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165

====
Bhagat: Unless both parties are enlightened they will get upset.

Confused: Getting upset as a result of self-image will happen only to those monks who in fact are not fit to be monks in the first place. And not only enlightened people are eligible to become monks.

====
Bhagat: You get upset when you are not "set" down in God.

Confused: A Buddhist monk, who believes in God, has zero understanding about the Buddha's teachings.

====
Bhagat: Hair grows regardless of what you want. Can you accept that and let them be?

Confused: Same with nails then. And same with anything that happens to the hair for example, getting dirty and having lice live in. Can you accept that and let it be? But you do comb and oil the hair right? Is this really letting it be?

====
Bhagat: Can you let them do what they do and maintain your composure with them?

Confused: You're not living in a vacuum of course. There'd be times when you'd be faced with whether the hair be kept or got rid of. Can you get rid of it and still maintain your composure? Apparently not. Because you are motivated in fact not by detachment towards any situation, but attachment to not cutting the hair.

A Buddhist can decide whether or not to ordain and therefore keep or not keep hair. But the only option you provide is to keep hair and then justify this with the idea that it grows naturally. But as I pointed out, if you want to maintain this idea of natural, then you’d have to also allow for other things to take place without a need to change. Your belief actually goes against the understanding of the way things are as it manifest from moment to moment, because your concept of “natural” is only a picture that you paint and want to follow. Ask different people and they will give you different ideas about natural. Someone who is taken in by Darwin's 'law of natural selection' and 'survival of the fittest' might in fact end up having a belief quite opposed to yours. But these are just ideas about natural which comes from ignorance and wrong understanding of the way things are.

My own conception about nature and what it means to be natural is as follows:

Any experience now is real and has a nature particular to it. It would have been conditioned to arise in accordance to fixed natural laws. On seeing a pleasant object, if attachment arises immediately, this is what is natural given who we are. Thinking as each person does motivated by one view or another, this is reflection of tendency that is natural.

In conceiving and thinking as you do about hair growing naturally, the imperative is therefore to understand the nature of the thinking and any mental factors conditioning it. To go by one's own idea about nature and not acknowledge the present moment reality is therefore not natural, but idealistic. Only with the arising of wisdom and therefore detached, is one said to be flowing with nature, otherwise it is the stream of attachment which one is swept along by.

A Buddhist who decides to ordain must have the understanding that the life of a recluse is “natural” to him, if not then he should not do so and just remain as a lay person and keep whatever hair style and change in accordance to conditions. Once he ordains however, following all the rules including shaving his head, would be something that is in accordance with his nature.

So we have natural as in whatever has arisen is because it is in the nature of it to do so. And there is “being natural” as in understanding and living in accordance with one’s accumulated tendencies.

=====
Bhagat: The question is why are you cutting it - are you coming from a place of aversion to the lifestyle with hair or are you coming from a place of love for God, a place without the 5 thieves?

Confused: Whoa, you see only these two possibilities?! And is one even related to the other?! This is not just diversion, but bad logic.

Let alone a need to refer to concepts such as God or humanity, understanding the nature of aversion does not even engender the idea of it as happening to “self”. And the important thing is that it is in the very understanding that the conditions are being created to its overcoming. To go outside of the present moment and refer instead to ideas such as God as means to deal with the 5 thieves is in fact a case of avoidance rather than understanding the reality there and then, plus making it ever harder the prospect of understanding the thinking (while conceiving of God) as thinking.

For someone who sees the importance of studying the present moment reality, why would you assume that he comes from a place of aversion towards the idea of keeping hair? If you wash your face because it is dirty, is this out of aversion towards the dirtiness? To cut the mustache in reaction to its coming in the way of eating food is common sense and not result of aversion.

=====
Quote: The reason why some keep and some don't is not because both are correct. It is either both are wrong or only one is correct.

Bhagat: It is about the mindset not what they do. One who has a simple mindset may either choose to have long hair or shave their head bald.

Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||
page 1365

Confused: Duality is created and then a solution is sought outside of the present moment. This is just a game which in fact does nothing to change the underlying tendency. Buddhism is not a non-dual religion. It is about developing understanding with regard to present moment realities such that in the case of thinking, whatever the thoughts are, this should be known for what it is.

=====
Quote: To go by “marks” is practical? It is a proliferation of view and easy object of attachment. Not simple and not practical at all!

Bhagat: Not just the mark of but actual, monkhood, simplicity and renunciation itself. The mark obviously is rooted in actual monkood, simplicity and reality, which is the only reason why it can be a mark of it, in the first place. If it wasn't rooted in the actual somehow it wouldn't be called a mark of it.

Confused: You had said:
“But I think shaving of hair or leaving it alone are both just ways of differentiating one's monkhood from the laymen.”

And this is what I was responding to. So what you are saying now is in effect changing the topic.

=====
Quote: To do something symbolically is not an instance of understanding and therefore can’t be detachment, but must instead be the stuff of attachment.

Bhagat: Wasn't talking about symbolic reasons. This is the reason why they did it in the past; renunciation from the world is why Sikhs keep long hair.

Confused: What could be more symbolic? A Sikh is asked to live the life of a householder while keeping hair as mark of renunciation. If this is not symbolic then it must be a state of contradiction.

=====
Bhagat: It is of course not the most popular reason these days. But it is the original reason. The most popular one these days is this:

Quote: Originally Posted by Prakash.s.Bagga
Among 1000 persons without Kesh it is difficult to know who among thousand is what in reference of religious beliefs.Persons without Kesh are those who believe in multi God of their own choice.

But A single SIKH with KESH among 1000 can be identified that this particular person is one with belief in GuRu or NIRANKAAR PRABHu.
KESH provide a very very strong identity to Sikhs. Among persons without KESH one can not identify who is a Sikh ?
This is probably one of the most important aspect of KESH for SIKHS.
That is why KESH are refered as STAMP of GURU.

Bhagat: Now if you give it some attention, you realize both reasons are the same in essence.

Confused: Well the reason why I chose not to argue with Prakash ji on this is because I had the impression that he was giving a reason related to “identity” and not to renunciation. But I do have a problem with that other reason as well. We can therefore discuss this if you want.

Luckysingh · #**248** (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 12:48 PM

Maybe someone who has experienced both could give us a better idea.
Say, one who has had a kesh or long hair and now has it short or one who used to have shorter hair and now keeps it long or kesh.?

harry haller · #**249** (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 14:32 PM

Luckyji

I had long hair and a turban right up until I was 28. I did not cut my hair for any other reason than my lifestyle was no longer Sikh, and I no longer believed in God, or possibly a better reason would be I was rejecting God, I am not quite sure.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165

I have now not cut my hair on my head or face for 2 months. I have quite a proper Sardar beard now, it looks the same as when I used to smother it in fixo, although my head just has 3 inch tufts growing out of it at strange angles, apart from the top which is bald. How my wife finds me attractive is beyond me, but every time I mention cutting it, she remarks that I look the same to her regardless, so as hers is the only opinion that matters, I have just let it grow.

I don't think any of my customers really care one way or another, I do not socialise and have no friends, so have no worry about social environments, yet, I do not feel I have quite grasped the message completely regarding the hair. My current stance is that I do not care, yet if you look at Sikhs from history, they did care, passionately, about their hair, they loved their hair, I do not think you can get away from the fact that they were extremely attached to the concept of hair. From that view, hair cannot stand as a symbol of renunciation, there has to be more to it than that, if good Sikhs of old would rather die than cut their hair then either they had the wrong grasp of the concept, or we underestimate the importance.

So clearly, my current state, ie, one who lets it grow because I am unconcerned about my appearance, is not in line with Sikhism.

My own take? I think when Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us an identity, he wanted us as Sikhs to look like him. Were not the Panj Pyare dressed as he was when he came out of the tent, in identical clothes, with Pag and beard.

I had a lengthy discussion a while back with Parmaji, where I conceded that to emulate a Guru could be seen as wrong, as it implied no understanding at all, but I am not so sure anymore, one cannot understand everything, if one keeps hair to assist in emulating the Guru, but does not quite understand why, then I see nothing wrong in that, why spend years attempting to understand why? when in my view, the events that took place that day were more about emulation. I am you, and you are me, take my hair, my clothes, realise that in yourself there is Guru Gobind Singhji, and although at first you may not understand, just keep a pure heart, be truthful, be brave, and it will all make sense as you journey through life, it prompts the question, does one have to truly understand why one must keep hair, in order to keep it, I think becomes one of those things that true Sikhs know exactly why, but are unable to explain it, if keeping hair is akin to knowing the true Guru, then the following explains it well.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165

P3 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
The state of the faithful cannot be described.
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥
. One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.

Sometimes a bit of faith is required, a jump into the unknown, I think hair is one of those things, if you truly truly know why you keep your hair, your hairy legs, armpits, the stray ones out of your ear and nose, you may find you are unable to explain why it is, but then maybe that was always known, maybe its a test of faith, maybe you don't know until you really try it, and for all the right reasons, all those reasons that still have not come to me yet

BhagatSingh · #**250** (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 15:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confused

Bhagat ji,

Quote: And since I think, the Nihang and Udasi tradition came not from Guru Nanak, but those after him; it is understandable that they will not be taken seriously.

Bhagat: Udasis comes from Guru Nanak Dev ji's son Sri Chand ji. In general, Sikhs hold a lot of respect for both groups.

Confused: Let’s just say that “you” respect both.

Let's not.

Quote:

====
Quote: Although the Basket of Discipline is for monks, a householder with any degree of understanding will no doubt find much inspiration from reading it. I wonder if it is the same with the above mentioned text?

Bhagat: Not familiar enough with the material to make any comments.

Confused: You don’t need to know the Basket of Discipline. What I am asking you is whether on reading the corresponding Sikh texts, a Sikh householder with any level of understanding will find it inspiring.

Yes, that is what I responded to. I am not familiar enough with Sarbloh Granth or the rehitnamas written by Guru Gobind Singh ji's contemporaries to give you a response.

Quote:

====
Quote: Well, not odd, but what is. And what is it? Is it as you say, the same, to keep the hair or shave it? I don't think so. According to the Buddhist and as I pointed out, hair is not conducive to the simple life at all. After all, it needs to be well kept, made sure that it is cleaned, causes the parts under it to sweat and therefore smell, comes in the way while doing most things, including bathing, going to the toilet and eating food. Is this being simple? Reminds me of the hippies, not just the appearance but more the idealistic attitude.

Bhagat: Sikhs don't have those problems because we know how to handle hair.

Confused: Again, you should not speak for other people but only yourself.

I will continue to speak for other people when I wish. In general Sikhs (the ones that keep hair including myself) know how to handle hair, the ones that handle them can keep them. If you cannot handle long hair you are not going to keep it, it's as simple as that. If you cannot ride a bike you are less likely to keep one around.

Quote:

Knowing how to handle the hair stands together with knowing how to handle baldness. This is not the issue here. The question is why keep hair in the first place if one thinks to lead a simple life. If one has hair and does not have the means to cut it, but knows to handle that situation, this is different. But given the options, why would one not choose to do away with hair since the problems associated with it invariably arise.

Yes knowing how to handle means you know how to solve the problems that arise.

Quote:

The concept of the simple life comes from seeing the danger of attachment and whatever else is associated. Why would someone who sees the dust in the household life, not also see the dust of having long hair and therefore choose to cut it off?

Hahaha most Indians who renounce the householder life, keep long hair. Many enlightened sages kept their hair. They just let them grow out. It is not a problem like you are making it out to be.

Quote:

Indeed people in becoming used to and learning how to handle their hair this is not the result of any wisdom, but more a reflection of the nature of attachment. And this is opposite in spirit to what we are talking in favor of, namely renunciation.

False. Know-how comes from wisdom. Brushing your teeth comes from wisdom. Yes some people brush their teeth because their parents told them, but others brush them because they are wise enough to know what the consequences of not brushing once's teeth.

"Why don't Buddhist monks remove their teeth? Because then they won't have to brush them, it will make their life even simpler. Are they attached to their teeth?"
Do you see the problem here with the above? That is how I hear you speak.

Quote:

====
Bhagat: You mention some issues that arise with keeping hair but simplicity is the way you handle those issues. So one may wash their hair, comb it and put a turban on. The other decides to get rid of it. Simplicity here is not in what you did but how you did it.

Confused: Then keeping nails uncut but cleaning it should also be OK? According to your line of reasoning, it is not about whether to cut or keep nails, but how you deal with it. Absurd suggestion isn’t it? Think about hair in the same way and you may come to have a similar view about it.

Although there are some important differences between long hair and nails, namely manageability, keeping long nails is fine too. It's how you deal with it.

Quote:

====
Bhagat: If the one who shaves his head is filled with the 5 thieves than his so-called simple action is not simple at all. Simplicity is to be without the five thieves. If this is present then all actions are simple.

Confused: Of course one should not ordain at all if one is not wise and pure enough. But when one has the understanding and wants to live the simple life, why would one think to maintain hair? The idea of keeping hair beside what I have pointed out so far must also come from conceit and encourage more of it at every turn, from the time one wakes up to the time one goes to sleep. This is *not* simplicity at all! Indeed it is from such a perception that some people think it best to get rid of hair altogether.

No long hair does not encourage conceit, no more than a shaved head. This is just a false perception you have.

If you think removing parts of the body means you are living simply then you should just continue to remove parts of the body, till you are dead. That would be the simplest of living. Hahaha!

On a serious note, that's true. To live as if you are dead is the simplest way to live. Without possessions, without the 5 thieves, without a sense of self, without an identity, without a tribe, without this and without that. When you clear your life of all the peripheral junk, all you have is life in it's simplest form. One may have those things but one must live with detachment, almost as if one didn't have those things. This is what makes for simplest living. Having hair or not is rather insignificant here.

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Quote: I'm almost certain that many of those long-haired recluses would get very upset if someone secretly cut their hair, since they would surely have grown to have great attachment to the idea of keeping it uncut. The question to ask is, why keep and not cut it?

Bhagat: I am sure Buddhists would also get upset if they were made to wear a wig or were forced to grow their hair by society.

Confused: How come you suddenly factor in society?

I didn't. I factored in change. Don't read the word society if it bugs you.

The point I am making is no matter who you think you are, you are likely to get attached to that. If a Buddhist monk shaves his head and if for some reason he can't or is forced to change his image, he would be quite upset.

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I was talking about an individual’s action towards another individual. I was pointing to self-image that comes with the individual’s decision to keep hair while rejecting the idea of cutting it.

I know.

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In the case of some Buddhist monk, if there is irritation, this would be no different from when someone instead of putting a wig, puts paint on his head. It is not about maintaining the image of having no hair. But in the case of some sanyasi, there is the image of one with long hair to be maintained as a result of growing identification with it. Besides, while the Buddhist monk is doing what the community of monks have laid out rules for, therefore being bald is not about personal image, the sanyasi in maintaining his hair must be motivated to a good extent by the idea of what sanyasi’s should look like.

Images are always present. Whether you have hair or not. I am sure Buddhist monks are also motivated to a good extent by the idea of what Buddhist monks should look like. There is an image of a Buddhist monk with a bald head. Any time you have a monk and he has no hair...
If he has orange and red robes, I think "Buddhist"
If he has white robes "a Jain monk"
If he has no robes, or long hair "could be a Hindu monk"

Image is always present. When we learn to detach ourselves from them, this is known as simplicity.

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Bhagat: You get upset when you are not "set" down in God.

Confused: A Buddhist monk, who believes in God, has zero understanding about the Buddha's teachings.

I am not talking about belief. I am talking about being rooted in God.

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Bhagat: Hair grows regardless of what you want. Can you accept that and let them be?

Confused: Same with nails then. And same with anything that happens to the hair for example, getting dirty and having lice live in. Can you accept that and let it be? But you do comb and oil the hair right? Is this really letting it be?

Comb? yes. Oil? no. My scalp produces enough oils to cover the length of my hair. Though in general Sikhs do oil their hair. Either way, this is letting it be, cutting it is not.

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Bhagat: Can you let them do what they do and maintain your composure with them?

Confused: You're not living in a vacuum of course. There'd be times when you'd be faced with whether the hair be kept or got rid of. Can you get rid of it and still maintain your composure? Apparently not. Because you are motivated in fact not by detachment towards any situation, but attachment to not cutting the hair.

What's the word? When someone thinks they know how the other would respond but they just come across as ______________.

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A Buddhist can decide whether or not to ordain and therefore keep or not keep hair. But the only option you provide is to keep hair and then justify this with the idea that it grows naturally.

You are putting words in my mouth. Keeping hair is not the only option I provided. I said you may do whatever you want with it, real simplicty comes from being without the 5 thieves. On the other hand, it is you who says shaving is the only way of simplicity.

To clarify, I am not talking about what is natural.

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Bhagat: The question is why are you cutting it - are you coming from a place of aversion to the lifestyle with hair or are you coming from a place of love for God, a place without the 5 thieves?

Confused: Whoa, you see only these two possibilities?! And is one even related to the other?! This is not just diversion, but bad logic.

Not exactly, you have not understood it.

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Let alone a need to refer to concepts such as God or humanity, understanding the nature of aversion does not even engender the idea of it as happening to “self”. And the important thing is that it is in the very understanding that the conditions are being created to its overcoming. To go outside of the present moment and refer instead to ideas such as God as means to deal with the 5 thieves is in fact a case of avoidance rather than understanding the reality there and then, plus making it ever harder the prospect of understanding the thinking (while conceiving of God) as thinking.

If you take God as an idea, then no doubt what you say is true. But here I am not talking about God as some sort of idea but as a reality.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, God is described as all-pervading, vartmaan. Vartmaan also means "present moment".

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For someone who sees the importance of studying the present moment reality, why would you assume that he comes from a place of aversion towards the idea of keeping hair?

or attachment towards the idea of not keeping it... (the flip side to aversion)

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If you wash your face because it is dirty, is this out of aversion towards the dirtiness?

Yes of course, why else do you wash your face?

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To cut the mustache in reaction to its coming in the way of eating food is common sense and not result of aversion.

No, it is aversion to having a moustache. Common sense dictates that you move it out of the way or simply clean it after you've had your meal. It is not common sense to walk out on your meal to go cut your moustache and return to finish the meal.

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Quote: To go by “marks” is practical? It is a proliferation of view and easy object of attachment. Not simple and not practical at all!

Bhagat: Not just the mark of but actual, monkhood, simplicity and renunciation itself. The mark obviously is rooted in actual monkood, simplicity and reality, which is the only reason why it can be a mark of it, in the first place. If it wasn't rooted in the actual somehow it wouldn't be called a mark of it.

Confused: You had said:
“But I think shaving of hair or leaving it alone are both just ways of differentiating one's monkhood from the laymen.”

And this is what I was responding to. So what you are saying now is in effect changing the topic.

I was responding with regards to the practicality aspect.
With regards to attachment, it may be easy object of attachment. Any object can be an easy object of attachment, the entire world is, Maya. Marks are just part of maya like anything else. They are no more "easier".

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Quote: To do something symbolically is not an instance of understanding and therefore can’t be detachment, but must instead be the stuff of attachment.

Bhagat: Wasn't talking about symbolic reasons. This is the reason why they did it in the past; renunciation from the world is why Sikhs keep long hair.

Confused: What could be more symbolic? A Sikh is asked to live the life of a householder while keeping hair as mark of renunciation. If this is not symbolic then it must be a state of contradiction.

Mark of inner renunciation as well. (What good is outer renunciation without the inner renunciation?)

It could be a symbol I suppose but that does not mean it is there due to the lack of understanding, in fact, it could be the opposite, that once there was understanding, one adopted the symbol.

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Bhagat: It is of course not the most popular reason these days. But it is the original reason. The most popular one these days is this:

Quote: Originally Posted by Prakash.s.Bagga
Among 1000 persons without Kesh it is difficult to know who among thousand is what in reference of religious beliefs.Persons without Kesh are those who believe in multi God of their own choice.

But A single SIKH with KESH among 1000 can be identified that this particular person is one with belief in GuRu or NIRANKAAR PRABHu.
KESH provide a very very strong identity to Sikhs. Among persons without KESH one can not identify who is a Sikh ?
This is probably one of the most important aspect of KESH for SIKHS.
That is why KESH are refered as STAMP of GURU.

Bhagat: Now if you give it some attention, you realize both reasons are the same in essence.

Confused: Well the reason why I chose not to argue with Prakash ji on this is because I had the impression that he was giving a reason related to “identity” and not to renunciation. But I do have a problem with that other reason as well. We can therefore discuss this if you want.

Identity is every where. Only when one lives completely in the present moment, that there is no identity seeking.

Let me rephrase Kabir's salok for you so that you may meditate on it.
Kabeer, when you are in love with the Present Moment (when you live in it), duality and alienation depart.
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||
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BhagatSingh · #**251** (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 15:57 PM

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they did care, passionately, about their hair, they loved their hair, I do not think you can get away from the fact that they were extremely attached to the concept of hair.

One could say that. And perhaps for some it was true but hair in Sikh history has represented Dharam. To cut hair was not to cut hair but to give up Dharam and the Khalsa saw themselves as up holders of Dharam so cutting hair was out of the question.

Not all Sikhs kept hair and saw it this light however.

chazSingh · #**252** (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 16:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

One could say that. And perhaps for some it was true but hair in Sikh history has represented Dharam. To cut hair was not to cut hair but to give up Dharam and the Khalsa saw themselves as up holders of Dharam so cutting hair was out of the question.

Not all Sikhs kept hair and saw it this light however.

I would say i was one of them. I think i kept my hair because i was attached to it, or even just used to having it uncut due to my parents saying we have to keep it uncut.

It's only when i started delving into Sikhi, spirituality (which is a major part of sikhi) did i start to feel a more spiritual connection with my hair, but not just my hair, with all aspects of my body and mind.

Now when i sit and do simran, and i can feel the energy flowing through me, when i feel the joy of the experiences i have, when i feel the sadness (bairagh) of my soul wanting to be with god, then i feel like my whole body and existance is part of god and i dont want to nor even think of cutting my hair.

It's hard to explain, you start to look after yourself more, eat healthy, want to exercise, what to interact with people and put a smile on peoples faces. i'm always looking for moments throughout the day where i can do some more simran or seva.

But in a similar way to what bhagat singh said, its not about whther you keep your hair or not, its what you're doing to purify yourself of the 5 thieves, and how much of a stranglehold they have on you. As you start to control the 5 thieves, the increased levels of purity inside you will determine your outer actions.

God bless all.